Why is high speed rail in the UK so expensive to construct?

[ABB125]

Maybe, although it could also be that HS2 have been told to halt whilst others look at the bigger picture with regards NPR/HS3.

That would (possibly) be logical. Therefore it probably isn't what's happened!

 

[Grumpy Git]

So everyone who said it should start from the North were entirely correct!

 

[The Planner]

So everyone who said it should start from the North were entirely correct!

Start in the north with NPR type services possibly, building 2A and B before 1 with the intention of heading south makes no sense as discussed many times.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Start in the north with NPR type services possibly, building 2A and B before 1 with the intention of heading south makes no sense as discussed many times.

It makes perfect sense if you live in the North and want more than an even chance of getting to London on a HS train.

 

[Bald Rick]

It makes perfect sense if you live in the North and want more than an even chance of getting to London on a HS train.

But it wouldn’t get to London, that’s the point!

 

[snowball]

It makes perfect sense if you live in the North and want more than an even chance of getting to London on a HS train.

If you live in Manchester or anywhere in the NW, you will be able to get to London on a high-speed train as soon as HS2 phase 1 opens.

It won't be high speed all the way, but neither would it have been if they'd started at the north end and worked south.

 

[Ianno87]

So everyone who said it should start from the North were entirely correct!

No they weren't. Where would the trains from the north go once HS2 runs out?

 

[jfowkes]

No they weren't. Where would the trains from the north go once HS2 runs out?

Back north again?

 

[Ianno87]

Back north again?

....so what station would they turn back at?

 

[paul1609]

Maybe, although it could also be that HS2 have been told to halt whilst others look at the bigger picture with regards NPR/HS3.

Its more likely that the penny has dropped that Leeds is only 40 miles from Manchester and it makes absolutely no sense building duplicate high speed lines north of Birmingham

 

[jfowkes]

....so what station would they turn back at?

Curzon Street I assume. Unless I'm missing what "build it from the north first" means. I thought it was building the Manchester/Leeds to Birmingham legs first.

 

[snowball]

Curzon Street I assume. Unless I'm missing what "build it from the north first" means. I thought it was building the Manchester/Leeds to Birmingham legs first.

That must be at least two-thirds of the total mileage that he's asking for.

 

[takno]

Its more likely that the penny has dropped that Leeds is only 40 miles from Manchester and it makes absolutely no sense building duplicate high speed lines north of Birmingham

I quite agree. There's really no need for a line to Manchester

 

[HSTEd]

If NPR actually goes forward, the business case for HS2 East north of Toton rather disintegrates.

Given the crawl in and out of the city centre station that Sheffield demanded in their infinite wisdom, there is little journey time advantage over the classic route from Toton, and the only trains that would use the huge section north of the Sheffield connection would be trains to Leeds and york that can be routed via Manchester without too much lost time - they will still utterly crush the classic alternatives out of King's Cross.

 

[Noddy]

What is the time penalty likely to be of going via Manchester v the eastern leg and the existing ECML? Not only from Leeds, but from York and Newcastle which as I understand were due to be served by HS2 trains.

 

[Ianno87]

Curzon Street I assume. Unless I'm missing what "build it from the north first" means. I thought it was building the Manchester/Leeds to Birmingham legs first.

So, to build that would represent building around 2/3 of the total HS2 route mileage, and including most/all of the Delta Junction complex... but you'd only be able to operate at most 25% of the eventual full HS2 service, until the route to/from Euston is done.

 

[jfowkes]

So, to build that would represent building around 2/3 of the total HS2 route mileage, and including most/all of the Delta Junction complex... but you'd only be able to operate at most 25% of the eventual full HS2 service, until the route to/from Euston is done.

I'm not saying it's a good idea from an economic or engineering point of view.

But megaprojects have a political dimension too. Building HS2 from London first was seen as neglecting the needs of the north, and I strongly suspect the pause in work on Phase 2B will be seen the same way. HS2 opponents have long said it's a London-centric project and now it looks like they might be right.

Building HS2 from the north down would have been a strong signal that that wasn't the case.

Or, build all the stages at once, but I guess there aren't enough resources for that.

 

[Ianno87]

Building HS2 from the north down would have been a strong signal that that wasn't the case.

Or, build all the stages at once, but I guess there aren't enough resources for that.

Then you get into a position where a hybrid Bill for a northern-first approach would be economically indefensible. As planned, each phase of HS2, Phase 1, 2a etc. stands on its own two feet with an individual economic case.

A north-first approach would struggle to have any economic case of the first phase given the low benefits relative to the infrastructure cost (for the reasons in my previous post); so would struggle to give an economic case upon which hybrid Bill powers could be justified.

 

[edwin_m]

What is the time penalty likely to be of going via Manchester v the eastern leg and the existing ECML? Not only from Leeds, but from York and Newcastle which as I understand were due to be served by HS2 trains.

London-York via HS2 eastern leg is less than 30min faster than via ECML, so I would guess going via Manchester and NPR would be slower. This is also part of the reason why HS2 eastern leg is more difficult to justify than the western leg.

 

[paul1609]

I'm not saying it's a good idea from an economic or engineering point of view.

But megaprojects have a political dimension too. Building HS2 from London first was seen as neglecting the needs of the north, and I strongly suspect the pause in work on Phase 2B will be seen the same way. HS2 opponents have long said it's a London-centric project and now it looks like they might be right.

Building HS2 from the north down would have been a strong signal that that wasn't the case.

Or, build all the stages at once, but I guess there aren't enough resources for that.

If the needs of London and the Southeast had been centric HS2 would never been built. Speeds on the WCML would have been reduced and trains would have been extended to 12 cars with 2 + 2 seating throughout to enhance capacity.

 

[Mikey C]

This conversation is starting to remind me of the Hale and Pace "Yorkshire Airlines" sketch

 

[LOL The Irony]

This conversation is starting to remind me of the Hale and Pace "Yorkshire Airlines" sketch

The question is, will HS2 trains have Alan Bennett class?

 

[Nunners]

What is the time penalty likely to be of going via Manchester v the eastern leg and the existing ECML? Not only from Leeds, but from York and Newcastle which as I understand were due to be served by HS2 trains.

The Journey time for Euston to Manchester Picc is given by HS2 as 67 minutes.
Manchester and Leeds are a similar distance apart as Birmingham and Toton. HS2 journey time Curzon Street to Toton is 20 minutes.
Adding a 3 minute stop/contingency at Picc and you get a 90 minute Euston to Leeds time.

HS2 gives Euston to Leeds as 81 minutes, so there is 10ish minute penalty to go via Manchester. For trains stopping at Birmingham Interchange there would be another 10ish minute penalty.
LNER to Leeds currently takes about 2h15, or 135 minutes. This means that even stopping at Brum Interchange and Man Picc, HS2 is significantly faster.

Leeds to York non-stop is currently 22 minutes. Assuming no route upgrade/new line, this would give HS2 Euston to York via Manchester as around 115 minutes, or 1 hour 55.
Eastern Leg Euston to York is 84 minutes on the fastest service. Therefore, via Manchester is about half an hour slower for York.
As the fast LNER trains to York take about 1 hour 50, there is not much point speed-wise sending trains to York if the Eastern Leg is not built.

However, I would expect HS2 trains to York even without the eastern leg as it wouldn't cost any more paths into Euston, and would save 1 path per hour into King's Cross. A small difference in speed also wouldn't make much difference for this flow, as it is already much faster than other transport methods. The journey time could also be matched by not stopping a train at Manchester Airport or upgrading the line to Leeds.

HS2 via Manchester is still much better than the existing service for Birmingham. Leeds would be about an hour from Birmingham, twice as fast as now (!).
Brum-York via Manchester would be about 80 minutes, about 40 minutes faster than today's fastest times.

As Manchester, Leeds and York could be served by the same trains, it is likely that each would also get a much better frequency than with the Eastern leg.

Of course, the big losers would be South Yorkshire and the East Midlands. This means I would expect a descoped Eastern Leg or a big upgrade for the existing railway.
A MML upgrade would give Nottingham with as good a journey time from London as with HS2. Sheffield would probably be a bit slower but not miles off. Nottingham and Sheffield to Birmingham would not be nearly as fast as with HS2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

3 minutes for a station call and reversal at Manchester Piccadilly HS2 station seems too short for a London-Leeds service.
Practically it would need to be about 8 minutes, with a high turnover of passengers.
Reversing inter city trains en route at major stations seems like a step backwards.
I suppose there might or might not be a triangular arrangement in/near Manchester for through trains (or the route might loop under the city centre).

 

[HSTEd]

3 minutes for a station call and reversal at Manchester Piccadilly HS2 station seems too short for a London-Leeds service.
Practically it would need to be about 8 minutes, with a high turnover of passengers.

With the number of trains reversing it is likely you could adopt London Underground practice and have drivers change trains instead of changing ends.

 

[Bald Rick]

Piccadilly to Leeds via the new line will be 30 mins.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Piccadilly to Leeds via the new line will be 30 mins.

What is the current fastest train?

 

[LOL The Irony]

3 minutes for a station call and reversal at Manchester Piccadilly HS2 station seems too short for a London-Leeds service.
Practically it would need to be about 8 minutes, with a high turnover of passengers.
Reversing inter city trains en route at major stations seems like a step backwards.
I suppose there might or might not be a triangular arrangement in/near Manchester for through trains (or the route might loop under the city centre).

This seems like a very busy arrangement for a route that is supposed to quell congestion. I feel like what they may try and do is combine the costs of the eastern leg from Toton and NPHR and deliver it as a single scheme.

 

[The Planner]

What is the current fastest train?

Tends to be around the 54 minute mark Victoria to Leeds, 56 from Picc.

 

[Nunners]

3 minutes for a station call and reversal at Manchester Piccadilly HS2 station seems too short for a London-Leeds service.
Practically it would need to be about 8 minutes, with a high turnover of passengers.
Reversing inter city trains en route at major stations seems like a step backwards.
I suppose there might or might not be a triangular arrangement in/near Manchester for through trains (or the route might loop under the city centre).

I assumed that NPR would be in a tunnel under Picc and turn Eastwards sharply after leaving. I don't know what the current plans are but a reversal would be less than ideal.

Piccadilly to Leeds via the new line will be 30 mins.

Many thanks, will post a new updated message

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2021 ==

Updated journey times post:

Journey (times in minutes)	Today (typical)	HS2 Eastern Leg	HS2 + NPR via Manchester
London to Leeds	135	81	105
London to York	110	84	125
Birmingham to Leeds	120	49	70
Birmingham to York	120	57	95