Why does everybody hate XC?

[starrymarkb]

The major issue with Voyagers is length. most of the other issues could be solved with TLC (I understand Virgin have managed to mitigate the bog smells on their fleet) and a good refurb to fix the interior.

IIRC Virgin did have plans to lengthen, but the plans were blocked with the failure of Princess

 

[Eric]

However good news is the 1603 back is the 1223 from Plymouth so will be HST, but at that time on a Friday even a HST is likely to be full and standing

Can you begin to imagine the scene if it was booked as a 4 car Voyager

There would be railway anarchy.
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The major issue with Voyagers is length. most of the other issues could be solved with TLC (I understand Virgin have managed to mitigate the bog smells on their fleet) and a good refurb to fix the interior.

IIRC Virgin did have plans to lengthen, but the plans were blocked with the failure of Princess

That would be my main issue with them and the TOC's that operate the Voyagers knowing that they don't provide the necessary capacity for the service that they are undertaking.

 

[MCR247]

Once again... in what way? If someone asked me, I'd say they were average.

They are fast, the are comfortable, spacious and I find them nice in general

 

[tbtc]

Standing non stop for two hours on a overcrowded 4 car Voyager isn't my idea of fun.

No, but standing on any unit/ train isn't much fun

If Voyagers were longer there wouldn't be the standing and people would have liked them a lot more.

 

[ajdunlop]

I think the voyagers are fine if they are long enough. 4 coaches is never enough and 5 is usually not enough. Also why is it so random whether XC put a 4 or 5 coacher on? Surely they must have trains assigned to the timetable based on demand and therefore they should be the same length from day to day?
I think bombardier's proposal to make all class 220's, 221's and 222's 6 coaches and hybrid (pentograph and electrics in one of the added coaches) would solve many of the problems with the fleet. Making them a good length and meaning they can be quieter when under the wires. Does anyone have any more detail on this proposal? Could they do 3rd rail for the Bournemouth services as well as overhead?

 

[mralexn]

Instead of Why does everyone HATE XC it should be, Why does Anyone LIKE XC?

they charge massive fares, have aweful trains, (apart from HST's)
have no hot food
and most of their trains get cancelled for next to no reason, leaving other TOCs to pick up the pieces.
so seriously, what is to like about XC?

 

[ainsworth74]

they charge massive fares,
have aweful trains, (apart from HST's)
have no hot food
and most of their trains get cancelled for next to no reason, leaving other TOCs to pick up the pieces.

1. Fair point on fares.
2. Not their fault as has been mentioned many times.
3. Fair point.
4. Not in my experience, I've used XC dozens of times and can't recall one cancellation, late running sure but not cancellations.

 

[TEW]

Service has become worse on the extremities of the network in recent years. It isn't that rare to see one of the Penzance trains terminated at Plymouth with a lack of train crew as the reason.

 

[ainsworth74]

Service has become worse on the extremities of the network in recent years.

Fair enough, I've only used them between Newcastle and Derby. Pretty much in the core.

 

[mumrar]

In the three years since Arriva took over XC the PPM figures have increased markedly over Virgin days. The Voyager fleet and Super Voyagers received Gold and Silver spanner awards for reliabilty in terms of miles per casualty.

You're correct about the fares, I think some of them are quite ridiculous, but like others I can only speculate as to why that is.

Oh, and did you mention HSTs? They may not be swarming XC's services, but they exist where they had been totally eradicated before hand.

So, why is it when one franchisee leaves and another arrives, in the face of a lot of facts, people will talk trash about the new boys and wax lyrical about the 'grand old days'?

 

[tbtc]

1. Fair point on fares

Difficulty is, with services so busy they'd be daft to have "give away" fares - there's no point in £5 fares when the trains are full of people paying full price

 

[ainsworth74]

there's no point in £5 fares when the trains are full of people paying full price

Indeed whilst it's annoying not being able to find any really cheap fares, it is certainly understandable. I suppose in some ways it's a good thing, if they did offer really cheap fares the overcrowding would be even worse I imagine.

 

[starrymarkb]

I know from Exeter to Bristol a pair of XC Advance singles is only about £2 less then the flexible Off Peak Return...

 

[Anvil1984]

I hate it when people exaggerate, a statement like "most of their trains get cancelled for next to no reason" is just plain stupd unless 51 per cent of the services each day get cancelled which they don't.

The Voyagers are ok trains, they arent enthusiast friendly though but they are in the main reliable and work hard. Which is more than the rolling stock they replaced. Virgin for what its worth wanted longer Voyagers and to retain some HSTs but were knocked back by the SRA. The government have a habit of doing this where they should be kept out of the way (185s have been another victim of the same problem)

The problem with Voyagers are the toilets (a given) and the fact they dont have SDO like the 222s have, SDO would be useful for places like Chester Le Street where a 5 car only just fits on. The Luggage space per coach ain't great especially when people are off on crusies from Southampton and the TMS system isnt great for reservationss as they tend to go awol at times.

Those problems have always been there with the Voyagers and to a great extent aren't Arrivas fault, what is Arrivas fault is the lack of even a small on train buffet even on the HST, a lot of passengers on the longer distance runs would like something hot to eat, the catering service has been run down (not by the staff themselves who are in the main great but I'm biased as I used to work there) to an extent where you can only choose from 2 flavours of crisps (just one of many example) and the staff have strict limits of what they can order and where they can order (no longer any ordering facilites for Sheffield so a train if Birmingham does have stock of an item has to go to Newcastle or Leeds without).Also if a coach over heats the train no longer has a crate of the first class water to hand out like we used to have. The wi-fi is an on going farce and one of the franchise promises they seem intent not to meet.

Back to the Voyagers if they were 7 cars long (1.5 first, 5 standard and a shop) they would be good trains, if they can gain pantographs then they will become better trains but if Meridians gain a panto then they will always be 1 step ahead

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, my biggest gripes with the Voyagers is the fact that the reservation system breaks down so often, plus the crappy luggage facilities. Otherwise, I find them OK, although Mrs G, who doesn't usually know a HST from a Pacer, has expressed her utter dislike for the seats!

 

[Anvil1984]

See for my trips back home to Newcastle I prefer the Voyager seats to the EC MK4s and definately the 185s as I perceive them to be softer, it might just be me

 

[starrymarkb]

See for my trips back home to Newcastle I prefer the Voyager seats to the EC MK4s and definately the 185s as I perceive them to be softer, it might just be me

I'm the same, really dislike the seats used in the Mallards or XC HST, the Voyager is more comfortable in that regard.

 

[mralexn]

1. Fair point on fares.
2. Not their fault as has been mentioned many times.
3. Fair point.
4. Not in my experience, I've used XC dozens of times and can't recall one cancellation, late running sure but not cancellations.

what i mean is starting the train again from a later point in the journey. when the actual train is only running about 30 down or more
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1. Fair point on fares.
2. Not their fault as has been mentioned many times.
3. Fair point.
4. Not in my experience, I've used XC dozens of times and can't recall one cancellation, late running sure but not cancellations.

also
as far as fares go

Booking 1 week in advance on

PLY to PNZ

at around 1800 on a weekday

Cheapest XC first class fare with Y/P is £18.55
Cheapest FGW Fare with Y/P is £3.95 in first class, with a buffet, however XC offer no buffet into cornwall.
with most XC journeys it actually works out cheaper to buy a ticket on the day than to travel in advance.

it just seems like a rip off to me, i mean, £18.55 to sit on a voyager with no buffet and in my opinion a worst FC than FGW.

 

[mumrar]

it just seems like a rip off to me, i mean, £18.55 to sit on a voyager with no buffet and in my opinion a worst FC than FGW.

This may seem an obvious answer, if that's how you feel, don't travel with XC then. I'd suggest FGW are so cheap as they receive some form of subsidy for being the majority service provider, as that is much cheaper.

 

[Geezertronic]

also
as far as fares go

Booking 1 week in advance on

PLY to PNZ

at around 1800 on a weekday

Cheapest XC first class fare with Y/P is £18.55
Cheapest FGW Fare with Y/P is £3.95 in first class, with a buffet, however XC offer no buffet into cornwall.
with most XC journeys it actually works out cheaper to buy a ticket on the day than to travel in advance.

it just seems like a rip off to me, i mean, £18.55 to sit on a voyager with no buffet and in my opinion a worst FC than FGW.

A rip off? You have not lived.... I'd love that price to do a 70ish mile journey whether it be by train or any other form of transport :roll:

 

[Pumbaa]

I think the voyagers are fine if they are long enough. 4 coaches is never enough and 5 is usually not enough. Also why is it so random whether XC put a 4 or 5 coacher on? Surely they must have trains assigned to the timetable based on demand and therefore they should be the same length from day to day?

Interoperable fleet. All services formed of a single unit are expected to be a 4-car Voyager, and if its a 5-car, bonus. Some exceptions; the Aberdeen/Dundee - Penzance are written in to be 5 car. Generally they try and make Newcastle - Bristol and Southampton 4 car, Manchester to the south coast 5 car and everything else is anyones game.

 

[mralexn]

This may seem an obvious answer, if that's how you feel, don't travel with XC then. I'd suggest FGW are so cheap as they receive some form of subsidy for being the majority service provider, as that is much cheaper.

thanks , and well, i never really do travel with them,
i get the feeling, XC is kinda like marmite, ^_^
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Interoperable fleet. All services formed of a single unit are expected to be a 4-car Voyager, and if its a 5-car, bonus. Some exceptions; the Aberdeen/Dundee - Penzance are written in to be 5 car. Generally they try and make Newcastle - Bristol and Southampton 4 car, Manchester to the south coast 5 car and everything else is anyones game.

is there no way that you could make them 6 cars or more ? ie put more carriages in. or are they not like HST's where you can just put in an extra carriage, stupid question i know, but im just curious ^_^

 

[mumrar]

thanks , and well, i never really do travel with them,
i get the feeling, XC is kinda like marmite, ^_^

Quite, I'll be the first to admit that XC's fares are by and large very expensive, but this may be partly down to the supply and demand mentioned earlier.

 

[tbtc]

is there no way that you could make them 6 cars or more ? ie put more carriages in. or are they not like HST's where you can just put in an extra carriage, stupid question i know, but im just curious ^_^

Not really.

The carriages have engines in them, so additional carriages would need the same engines in them, or compatible ones.

And, the production line has now closed, so you'd need to start again which would be costly, unless building *lots*

Plus, I'm not sure that more ones can be built (due to changing environmental regulations - that's certainly the case with TPE 185s)

HSTs are easy - sticking unmotorised coaches is simple - this is why DMUs are so complicated, sadly

 

[mralexn]

Not really.

The carriages have engines in them, so additional carriages would need the same engines in them, or compatible ones.

And, the production line has now closed, so you'd need to start again which would be costly, unless building *lots*

Plus, I'm not sure that more ones can be built (due to changing environmental regulations - that's certainly the case with TPE 185s)

HSTs are easy - sticking unmotorised coaches is simple - this is why DMUs are so complicated, sadly

oh right, i know where you are coming from there.
its a shame that they cant get some mk4 stock that EC use on the east coast mainline, and put a 91 at one end and say a 67 at the other, its a shame that would never really happen due to lack of stock though , but that would sort out the over crowding problem for a start and theoretically would save them money as it would be running on electric for some parts of the journey.

its just a shame they didnt make 7 / 8 car voyagers from day one.
i mean they can double them up. but then that requires 2 crews, costing XC more money for staffing.

but you do see the amound of people that get on them voyagers at BHM at rush hour, or even say newcastle ,

 

[tbtc]

its just a shame they didnt make 7 / 8 car voyagers from day one

Completely.

If XC had longer trains:

1. station dwell times could be a lot lower at key stations like Leeds/ Birmingham, as squeezing a couple of hundred passengers through sixteen doors would be a lot easier than squeezing them through eight doors

2. not needing doubled up sets would mean scope for some of the "interesting" ideas XC had at Operation Princess (e.g. extensions from Bristol to Cardiff and Swansea, from Edinburgh to Dundee)

3. the complaints about the toilets etc wouldn't be anything like as bad

4. the issue of reservations not working wouldn't be as bad if there were trains long enough not to scramble for seats

5. RailForums would lost a quarter of its threads!

 

[ainsworth74]

5. RailForums would lost a quarter of its threads!

Indeed what the hell would we do with all the spare time we would have, if Voyagers had been built to a sensible length

 

[starrymarkb]

thanks , and well, i never really do travel with them,
i get the feeling, XC is kinda like marmite, ^_^
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is there no way that you could make them 6 cars or more ? ie put more carriages in. or are they not like HST's where you can just put in an extra carriage, stupid question i know, but im just curious ^_^

You can't just slot in an extra carriage on HSTs either. They need to be made HST compatible first.

Similarly with a Voyager you could insert a vehicle, but it would have to be made compatible with the Voyager's systems.

In both cases an unpowered trailer will affect the power to weight ratio

 

[ainsworth74]

You can't just slot in an extra carriage on HSTs either. They need to be made HST compatible first.

If it was a HST vehicle you could surely? Actually don't XC have some TSOs in store somewhere?

 

[mralexn]

Indeed what the hell would we do with all the spare time we would have, if Voyagers had been built to a sensible length

totally lol
and talkin about reservations on XC , the system regally fails and reservations are hand written. looks kind of scruffy ^_^