Why does everybody hate XC?

[Donny Dave]

CAN SOMEONE HELP ME WITH THIS - I was once on the Norwich-Liverpool L St train, and it was full and standing upon departure, I got the final two seats free at the buffer end of Norwich. this woman and her daughter came up to me insisting they had reseved my seats, there was no reservation papers on the seats to prove this, so I asked her for proof, but she said she didn't have to prove it etc, eventually I movced and stood up all the way to Peterborugh, i wasn't in the mood for arguing. Was I in the right or wrong to ask what i did?

There was a topic like this not so long back. Basically the result was ....

No reservation display or labels = no reservation

 

[222666]

On a voyager (also 390???) the seats nearest the vestibules don't appear to have the dot matrix display, possibly a missing sun blind (though not sure if that's intentional). So I would say not reservable also.

(If those were the seats you described).

Edit: sorry I just noticed you said Norwich - Liverpool St.

 

[MCR247]

That was because XC installed and move seats so some now don't line up

 

[Lampshade]

There was a topic like this not so long back. Basically the result was ....

No reservation display or labels = no reservation

This sometimes causes a few heated arguments on TPE where it's not unknown for people to just remove the reserved label from the seat.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

This sometimes causes a few heated arguments on TPE where it's not unknown for people to just remove the reserved label from the seat.

That's the thing though, luckily most people are decent enough to give it up when required

 

[Greenback]

Seen enough arguments from people, recently I saw, on XC, an elderly woman complaining at someone who had her seat, to which he replied "well, what do you expect us to do?" & I pointed out that she had actually PAID for that seat, was elderly, & tickets don't entitle you to a seat - seat reservations do . I don't work for the railway it just makes me

Where there is a label on the seat in question, or the electornic sign says it;s reserved, then that eprson moves. No question, end of story. If they won't and no one can persuade them of the error of their ways, the train staff should be caleld to intervene.

The conductor from Cardiff this afternoon was very good. He had to mvoe 8 people out of a block booking of seats. He had known that the train was going to be ehavily loaded and did his best to persuade travelelrs for Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Swansea on to a late running HST. He was very proactive in mvoing people and finding any spare seats for the rest.

CAN SOMEONE HELP ME WITH THIS - I was once on the Norwich-Liverpool L St train, and it was full and standing upon departure, I got the final two seats free at the buffer end of Norwich. this woman and her daughter came up to me insisting they had reseved my seats, there was no reservation papers on the seats to prove this, so I asked her for proof, but she said she didn't have to prove it etc, eventually I movced and stood up all the way to Peterborugh, i wasn't in the mood for arguing. Was I in the right or wrong to ask what i did?

I would have pointed out that the seat did not appear to be reserved, but that the label may have been removed by someone else, and asked to see the reservation coupon. Depending on the circumstances I may not have doen this though, if someone was pregnant, elderly or had difficutly in standing I wouldn;t have asked for the proof. Every situation must be assessed on it smerits, but in this case I would not dismiss the possibility that she was trying it on because 'as a parent she has more rights'!

 

[Ivo]

I would have done it subject to either (a) circumstances similar to those mentioned by Greenback or (b) the age of the daughter. If she appeared to be any older than about 10 I would have said no, but a young child should be allowed to sit with her mother.

And this includes senile elderly women who insist on having their reserved table seats, "so I can do my crossword" (which is simple enough on the flip-tables), and are not being willing to swap with a mother so she can sit with her children at the table. The mother should have priority in that situation.

 

[Greenback]

Interestingly, a group couldn't sit together this afternoon on the way back from Cardiff. I could have offered to move so they had two seats together, but the children were about 11 and 14, so I didn't, theyw ere quite old enough to sit by themselves across the way from the adults!

 

[Geezertronic]

On the topic of seat reservations, the overhead electris ones on Pendo's and Voygers etc are a pain in the a***. Instead of seeing the paper in the seat, and moving on to find another, you gotta stand there for 20 secs, seeing if its reserved, and everyone else takes the free seats . they don't even work half the time anyway.

I disagree with that, they are better than paper reservations for reasons already stated (i.e. people removing them) and a simple glance at the dot matrix screen shows anyone who bothers to look whether the seat is reserved or not. I don't know what you do with your 20 seconds but you're spending about 18 seconds too much looking at them. And being a regular traveller on the 390s, I would suggest that they do not work in about 1 in 100 journeys.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I disagree with that, they are better than paper reservations for reasons already stated (i.e. people removing them) and a simple glance at the dot matrix screen shows anyone who bothers to look whether the seat is reserved or not. I don't know what you do with your 20 seconds but you're spending about 18 seconds too much looking at them. And being a regular traveller on the 390s, I would suggest that they do not work in about 1 in 100 journeys.

The ones on pendo's scroll, so if you only cathc thw last two wors, you have to wait for it to come round again: the res system fails about 1 in 20 time sim onbaord - and thats quite often

 

[Greenback]

I disagree with that, they are better than paper reservations for reasons already stated (i.e. people removing them) and a simple glance at the dot matrix screen shows anyone who bothers to look whether the seat is reserved or not. I don't know what you do with your 20 seconds but you're spending about 18 seconds too much looking at them. And being a regular traveller on the 390s, I would suggest that they do not work in about 1 in 100 journeys.

The one problem I have is that I can never seem to look at the right display for the seat! To my eyes and mind, it never seems to be above the actual seat, and I get even more confused than my normal state!

 

[Geezertronic]

The ones on pendo's scroll, so if you only cathc thw last two wors, you have to wait for it to come round again: the res system fails about 1 in 20 time sim onbaord - and thats quite often

I have never seen the dot matrix screens by the seats scroll in my many travels, yes the ones above the doors but they are informational only. The seat dot matrix screens either say:

• Available
• Available until <<station name>>
• Reserved

I still disagree with you on the 1 in 20, no where near that in my opinion.

 

[Ivo]

@ Greenback: If your normal state is "confused", then I dread to think what the normal state of half of the folks I know back in Southend would be!

And they don't have vultures called Stiletto to bail them out either

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have never seen the dot matrix screens by the seats scroll in my many travels, yes the ones above the doors but they are informational only. The seat dot matrix screens either say:

• Available
• Available until <<station name>>
• Reserved

I still disagree with you on the 1 in 20, no where near that in my opinion.

Sorry - I meant Voyagers . In 1st class they do anyway. Maight just be my travbelling days or chronic probnlems with a system that gives them the high not working levels

 

[MCR247]

Another problem with seat reservations is that when you say get on a Kings Cross, when normal passengers see a coach with most seats with the white label in it will put them off even looking even if they were only reserved from Berwick - Edinburgh and they are going to York. But without seat reservations it would mean that on voyagers you would have no chance of a seat on some trains. So maybe they should make some trains reservation only but make sure that a seat is reserved on every leg if possible like on TGVs

 

[Greenback]

@ Greenback: If your normal state is "confused", then I dread to think what the normal state of half of the folks I know back in Southend would be!

And they don't have vultures called Stiletto to bail them out either

I have made some cracking mistakes on my travels! Once I got on a stopper from Reading to Guildford instead of the Gatwick train, and almost missed a flight! I've also waited for a bus for 30 minutes on the wrong side of the road, completely oblivious tot he fact that the bus I wanted came the other way, clearly showing my destination on the front!

I tend to think of myself as an experienced traveller, having gone across the US independently, around Europe and New Zealand too, all by public transport, and I tend to think that if I can get confused by unfamiliar things, then irregular travellers must also find it pretty difficult now and again!

Anyway, back on topic! I don't use XC much, because of where I live mainly, and the fact that I try to avoid their fares! But if I get mixed up looking at the displays, imagine what someone who has never travelled on XC could make of it!

 

[Geezertronic]

I have made some cracking mistakes on my travels! ......

Anyway, back on topic! I don;t sue XC much...

There you go again

 

[Greenback]

There you go again

Ha! My eyes are tired and I type too fast! I'm also now typing in the dark, as I am too mean to put the light on!

 

[Ivo]

I don't sue XC much either. In fact, I never have

 

[Greenback]

I've edited it! Now leave me alone!

 

[tbtc]

Best way to sort out the reservation screens would be to have "light on dark" for the "this seat is unreserved" message and "dark on light" for the "this seat is reserved between Station X and Station Y", so that you could tell a lot faster whether it was worth investigating or not.

 

[Greenback]

Best way to sort out the reservation screens would be to have "light on dark" for the "this seat is unreserved" message and "dark on light" for the "this seat is reserved between Station X and Station Y", so that you could tell a lot faster whether it was worth investigating or not.

Now that's what I call a good idea!

 

[tbtc]

Now that's what I call a good idea!

I can't think of a reason not to do it, but someone may disagree...

 

[Drsatan]

Yeah, they hate HSTs so much that they acquired a few HSTs (the franchise had none when Arriva took over), refurbished them, and use them daily. I mean, if anything shows much Arriva hate and despite HSTs its the fact that they introduced them and use them each day!

Well, it was a franchise requirement that Arriva introduced HSTs, although they are reluctant to use them on grounds of cost; only two of the five HSTs they hired are in regular use.

I believe XC promised to introduce free WiFi on all their trains, which still hasn't happened? Is that a breach of a franchise commitment? Or maybe it would dent XC's profit margins?

Nonetheless, XC aren't entirely to blame for the gross overcrowding on some of their routes. It was a big mistake for Virgin XC to replace HSTs and 6-7 coach loco hauled services with four and five car Voyagers as part of Operation Princess (and run them more frequently), then discover that it was necessary to withdraw services from parts of their network to allow double-formation Voyagers.

But remember, it was the SRA's fault for not allowing Virgin XC to order more centre cars for the Voyagers. Doing so wouldn't be possible due to the closure of the Voyager/Meridian/Pioneer production lines.

 

[Zoe]

Doing so wouldn't be possible due to the closure of the Voyager/Meridian/Pioneer production lines.

Could it not be restarted like it was for the 390s?

 

[87015]

But remember, it was the SRA's fault for not allowing Virgin XC to order more centre cars for the Voyagers. Doing so wouldn't be possible due to the closure of the Voyager/Meridian/Pioneer production lines.

Maybe Virgin could have ordered a sensible fleet in the first place? Or not got into such a mess and then thrown their hands in the air and said "you can pay to sort it out, we won't be" to the Dft??

 

[Zoe]

Maybe Virgin could have ordered a sensible fleet in the first place?

As I said above I was informed elsewhere that underfloor engine DMUs were all that the train manufacturers were prepared to offer at the time. I don't know how true this is but if that was the case then you can't entirely blame Virgin for it.

 

[Drsatan]

Could it not be restarted like it was for the 390s?

Not sure if that would be possible if the jigs required for production have been destroyed. That's certainly the reason why no more Desiros can be made for SWT and others
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I said above I was informed elsewhere that underfloor engine DMUs were all that the train manufacturers were prepared to offer at the time. I don't know how true this is but if that was the case then you can't entirely blame Virgin for it.

IMO Virgin or Porterbrook should have paid to have the 43s/47s re-engined and for their coaches to have been refurbished. But maybe ordering Voyagers was cheaper overall (taking into account that their track-access charges are probably lower than a 47 plus six Mk2s)

 

[Zoe]

IMO Virgin or Porterbrook should have paid to have the 43s/47s re-engined and for their coaches to have been refurbished.

I agree and in the longer term Mark 3 coaches could have been cascaded from the WCML. The issue is though that it was a franchise commitmet to replace the trains and also in this image obsessed society we have today a Voyager is more likely to impress people from the outside than a 40 year old train.

 

[tbtc]

You could build new centre cars for Voyagers. The trick is ordering enough to be cost efficient to set up a new production line at a cheap unit cost.

Lets face it - we've proved recently that you can build a new steam engine. The centre car issue isn't impossible to resolve, BUT you may need to build 100s of coaches so that there are enough to produce coaches at an affordable unit price, given the high fixed costs of setting up production.

Lets say there are 75 Voyagers, and you want to extend them to seven coaches (on average) - that's maybe two hundred coaches. Would that be worthwhile to set up production for?

In an ideal world you'd build enough coaches to a "generic" design that could be slotted into 180s/ 222s and other units too, but I appreciate that's wishful thinking

(of course the new coaches don't have to be built *by* Bombardier, just compatible with the existing Bombardier coaches)