Why does everybody hate XC?

[Greenback]

If the business model is wrong in the first place, it's hard to see how expanding will help XC.

Of course, I don;t know for definite that this is the problem, I'm just guessing from info on here and from my contact in the company.

The only way a business case cna be cosntructed for XC to fund improvements in capacity is by huge increases in revenue. Yet people will still find legitimate ways around XC's higher fares, meaning any expansion can't be economically justified.

 

[222666]

Fair play. But surely allowing them to have one more train or a few more carriages would be a step in the right direction. It seems they have been left to fend for themselves, is it because they are not London-centric?

Bus companies are allowed to renew their fleets every so many years (well Stagecoach is) & their pax tend to go for the [cheaper] weekly or even monthly passes. Oh wait - it's the subsidies, so I guess things look bleak for them too now.

I don't know much about inside the industry, just that if XC trains are overcrowded AND running higher frequency (as compared to the old IC days) then surely they can say to the govt "please sir, could I have some more!?"

I thought it was about providing a service first, profit second, naiive I know!

 

[Greenback]

London based TOC's tend to have better treatment - at least from the perspective of those of us who live outside of the capital!

I doubg the government will give anyone any more at the moment.

I think the XC problems are two fold. Niether Virgin nor DfT forecast how much growth would occur, both generally across the railway and through the introduction of the new trains and new timetables.

This meant that the new trains were far too short.

Secondly, since Arriva took over the franchise their bid has been shown to be hopelessly wrong in terms of revenue generation.

This means there is simply no money for any enhancements or capacity increases.

As you say, profit comes first for any business -without it, there is no business! And yes, things do look bleak!

 

[Ivo]

Regarding the bus fleets, STAGECOACH are, but that is partly because they are trying to modernise the entire country (maybe so they don't have to later? - well, besides Magic Bus anyway), especially with the GoldLine routes in Perth, Warwick, Aldershot and Cheltenham, and now Oxford (which I didn't even know of until I saw one last week).

On the other hand, XC are owned by Arriva. And they couldn't give a damn unless the area is well-populated and they have a clear monopoly. If you think Arriva modernise their fleets everywhere, go to Liverpool - modernisation very much under way (plenty of 10-reg vehicles as well). Then go to my home town, Southend - where just two vehicles were built in this millennium (and then they are second-hand, and running on the route that serves their depot).

 

[Foxhound]

Originally Posted by tbtc
If the Cross Country service in Devon/ Cornwall is well used by local journeys then that's what FGW are for. In the same way that the SWT services were chopped at Exeter (with FGW providing replacements west of St Davids), maybe FGW should be responsible for these local trips in the south west? I'm not saying that FGW have loads of extra capacity, but maybe a 158 would be a better use of resources than a whole Voyager.

Originally Posted by somebody else whose name I forgot, sorry...
I boarded an XC service in Truro last week, and it was already pretty full. I'd like to see a 158 cope with that.

My G/F commutes from Plymouth to Truro 2 or 3 times a week for her job. FGW's answer to Cornish services is appalling - peak time trains heading east are a single 2-car 150, rammed to the gunnels, and it isn't even proper emmet season yet. Westbound trains at peak morning times are sometimes HST, but also sometimes 150, with the occasional 153 stuck on for 'capacity'. The loss of 159s west of Exeter may not impact on her personal journey, but to suggest that journeys over the RAB should be left in the hands of these cowboys is a joke. Yes, Arriva got the poisoned chalice with the Voyagers. They may be economical, but ergonomic they are not, nor are they big enough in terms of capacity. I also agree that the internal noise is unacceptable too. No point having a quiet coach if you can't hear yourself think. I'd rather pay the extra and travel with WorstGW to PAD and then go out of KGX with a proper provider to get to EDB or elsewhere on the ECML when we have to travel than use XC.
What grieves me most about that is that I used to work for them, and the VXC crews at Plymouth were the best railwaymen and women around.

Perhaps DfT just wanted the railways to die?

 

[tbtc]

I think that the next holder of the XC franchise will have to tackle the issues properly - Arriva won't within the existing franchise period, but the new one can't avoid them.

One issue this has raised is the problem with DMUs. You can't simply add an extra coach to them, you can't build any more coaches (because the production line has now ended), you can't incrementally grow. Whilst I'm not always in favour of the "loco hauled" option, you have to appreciate that if the Virgin had built new coaches and new locos (to replace the old loco hauled services) it would be relatively simple to stick additional coaches onto trains/ build new coaches (compared to the technology involved in building/ adding new Voyager coaches, which seems so complicated/ expensive not to be worth doing)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the other hand, XC are owned by Arriva. And they couldn't give a damn unless the area is well-populated and they have a clear monopoly. If you think Arriva modernise their fleets everywhere, go to Liverpool - modernisation very much under way (plenty of 10-reg vehicles as well). Then go to my home town, Southend - where just two vehicles were built in this millennium (and then they are second-hand, and running on the route that serves their depot).

Arriva have sadly fallen for the First trick with buses, whereby they buy loads of brand new buses for an area, then it gets nothing for a long time (here in Sheffield we get dozens every five years, but nothing in other years).

Look at Arriva in Derby, where almost everything is under a couple of years old. But before then, they had lots of twenty year old buses on main services. The logical way to do it would be to introduce a few new ones a year, but Arriva/ First seem to like the "big bang" approach, followed by years of starvation.

With trains I accept its harder, due to production lines.

 

[Greenback]

I think that the next holder of the XC franchise will have to tackle the issues properly - Arriva won't within the existing franchise period, but the new one can't avoid them.

One issue this has raised is the problem with DMUs. You can't simply add an extra coach to them, you can't build any more coaches (because the production line has now ended), you can't incrementally grow. Whilst I'm not always in favour of the "loco hauled" option, you have to appreciate that if the Virgin had built new coaches and new locos (to replace the old loco hauled services) it would be relatively simple to stick additional coaches onto trains/ build new coaches (compared to the technology involved in building/ adding new Voyager coaches, which seems so complicated/ expensive not to be worth doing)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva have sadly fallen for the First trick with buses, whereby they buy loads of brand new buses for an area, then it gets nothing for a long time (here in Sheffield we get dozens every five years, but nothing in other years).

Look at Arriva in Derby, where almost everything is under a couple of years old. But before then, they had lots of twenty year old buses on main services. The logical way to do it would be to introduce a few new ones a year, but Arriva/ First seem to like the "big bang" approach, followed by years of starvation.

With trains I accept its harder, due to production lines.

The problem with DMU's is also that although in theory they can be run in multiple, this assumes you have enough units in the first place to allow it! You also need extra staff where there are no corridor connections between the units.

 

[tbtc]

The problem with DMU's is also that although in theory they can be run in multiple, this assumes you have enough units in the first place to allow it! You also need extra staff where there are no corridor connections between the units.

That's it.

I don't mind multiple 158s (etc), but multiple Voyagers is a pain - the drag between the two units won't help either.

The more I think about it, the more a "loco and coaches" approach would suit XC

 

[Greenback]

I think you are right. But it probably all comes down to cost, and I don't know how the access charges work in practice or whether they are, in fact, a true reflection fo the real costs in track maintenance and replacement.

Incidentally, are there many reversals these days that would hinder loco hauled services? I can think of Cardiff - Bristol TM - Birmingham, if that still runs!

 

[Ivo]

And what would become of the Voyagers? Or would that be another pointless question?

 

[Greenback]

Stick them on the Cambrian Coast, or send them to Pembroke Dock!

 

[Ivo]

Biased git

Nah, give 'em to the other companies with stock issues we don't like. FCC maybe. (Would save dual-voltage issues!)

 

[duffman82]

They could be transferred to First Trans-pennine and used on the scotland runs maybe? It will be a while before they electrify the chat moss route.

 

[Greenback]

Seriously, there must be quite a few lines/routes where a Voyager would be a step up!

 

[LE Greys]

Seriously, there must be quite a few lines/routes where a Voyager would be a step up!

The old Alphaline routes on FGW? Voyagers might be a bit of an improvement on 158s, especially over the main line sections. Otherwise, it's debatable whether the speed advantage would be useful for XC's Turbostar-operated routes, although I would add extra vehicles to them with a micro-buffet.

Actually TPX is not a bad idea for the WCML routes. They could reactivate the tilt on the 221s and transfer any spare 185s to replace the Turbostars on the southern section and reinforce services at busy periods. That frees up the Turbostars to go to other operators.

 

[Geezertronic]

They could reactivate the tilt on the 221s...

Didn't they remove the tilt kit off the XC 221s to save a bit of weight?

 

[455driver]

They just replaced a hydraulic ram with a solid bar, it was more to do with maintenance costs than weight saving.

 

[222666]

Seriously, there must be quite a few lines/routes where a Voyager would be a step up!

No you are right! I'm sure many people have been at Aberystwyth, OR Cardiff Central after 17:00 mon-sats, a fair crowd at each, waiting for the Birmingham train. And what has turned up? A single 158, or 170 (2 car). Not fun. Wales would absolutely benefit from Voyagers, especially on the Birmingham routes (OK they do go to Cardiff sometimes, but not all the time).

There's always been this culture of underestimating growth, so now you see (even in these economic times) X3 four car units chained together on London routes, a bit like saying there is an off peak, a middle peak, & a peak - not to mention the actual peak period is getting wider. But in other parts you get the minimum even if it's peak time!

 

[Zoe]

It was suggested elesewhere that as most of the route was not electrified, underfloor engine DMUs were all the train manufacturers were prepared to build and so that's why we are stuck with them. I don't know how true this is.

 

[mumrar]

They just replaced a hydraulic ram with a solid bar, it was more to do with maintenance costs than weight saving.

I think it also stops them being charged higher access charges which relate to tilt enabled 221s. This is purely my speculation.

 

[tbtc]

There are plenty of two-car 158/170 routes where a Voyager would be very welcome as an alternative.

However, capacity wise, they can't really replace anything that already has three-car units, and aren't suited to anything that stops regularly. A real wasted opportunity.

 

[Greenback]

The old Alphaline routes on FGW? Voyagers might be a bit of an improvement on 158s, especially over the main line sections. Otherwise, it's debatable whether the speed advantage would be useful for XC's Turbostar-operated routes, although I would add extra vehicles to them with a micro-buffet.

The Cardiff - Portsmouth trains should have 3 car 158's normally, so I don't think there will be a great increase in capacity by using a Voyager (please correct me if I;m wrong!).

I feel they could be useful though on the Taunton - Cardiff runs. Here, they would mostly be replacing a motley assortment of Sprinters and Pacers.

I would suggest Plymouth - Penzance, but I would only be told that is a waste of their higher speed abilities!

No you are right! I'm sure many people have been at Aberystwyth, OR Cardiff Central after 17:00 mon-sats, a fair crowd at each, waiting for the Birmingham train. And what has turned up? A single 158, or 170 (2 car). Not fun. Wales would absolutely benefit from Voyagers, especially on the Birmingham routes (OK they do go to Cardiff sometimes, but not all the time).

There's always been this culture of underestimating growth, so now you see (even in these economic times) X3 four car units chained together on London routes, a bit like saying there is an off peak, a middle peak, & a peak - not to mention the actual peak period is getting wider. But in other parts you get the minimum even if it's peak time!

I despair when a 2 car 175 or, worse, a 158 arrives on a peak time Carmarthen or Milford haven service from Cardiff. They are rammed until Bridgend, very full until Swansea, and rammed again until Llanelli. A bit like the Birmingham - Cardiff train I caught which didn't really start to empty out until Newport!

 

[Ivo]

The Cardiff-Pompey runs *should* use 3-car 158s (or rather 1½ 2-car 158s), but have single 2-car units all too often. I think that the Voyagers, especially with the buffet reopened, would be a good addition to the service. They are fast, they are reliable (enough), they are quite spacious (seating would be similar to the 158s but there would also be the first class option, which the route does need in my opinion) and there are plenty around to solve the stock issues we've been discussing on-and-off of late! I'm not sure I agree with them running to Taunton though; I agree that they aren'tsuitable to stopping services. Can you imagine a 125mph unit stopping at Parson Street, Bedminster, Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road every hour?

They could even run a special named train - "The Seven Cities Express" (Cardiff, Newport, Bristol, Bath, Salisbury, Southampton, Portsmouth).

There is a problem though - what happens during the peaks when even five cars sometimes aren't enough? The just isn't a case for two Voyagers to one service, but one wouldn't suffice!

 

[The Planner]

Stick em on Cardiff Manchester's, they are crying out for 5 car Voyagers and its a very profitable route.

 

[Ivo]

I like that idea. It means that the crappy stock stays with the crappy company

 

[Greenback]

The Cardiff-Pompey runs *should* use 3-car 158s (or rather 1½ 2-car 158s), but have single 2-car units all too often. I think that the Voyagers, especially with the buffet reopened, would be a good addition to the service. They are fast, they are reliable (enough), they are quite spacious (seating would be similar to the 158s but there would also be the first class option, which the route does need in my opinion) and there are plenty around to solve the stock issues we've been discussing on-and-off of late! I'm not sure I agree with them running to Taunton though; I agree that they aren'tsuitable to stopping services. Can you imagine a 125mph unit stopping at Parson Street, Bedminster, Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road every hour?

I know, I've been caught on 2 car 158's too often on that route! You make a good point about the buffet and the stopping services too!

Not that sure about Taunton myself, but they do currently serve the place so at elast the locals are familiar with them!

Stick em on Cardiff Manchester's, they are crying out for 5 car Voyagers and its a very profitable route.

Yes please, as long as they venture to West Wales!

I like that idea. It means that the crappy stock stays with the crappy company

Each to their own!

 

[tbtc]

In the frequency-capacity trade of that it seems VXC/DafT got wrong when the new stock was ordered, what are peoples thoughts about reforming the 221/222s?

eg 22 5 car 221s could become 11 7 car and 11 3 car units - so if they reduced the frequency and perhaps recast some of the stopping points the service could be couched in a much more InterCity light and help to encourage "short hop" passengers off XC and onto local operators too, helping XC to get away from the trains are full but were losing money problem.

If that makes any sense? Any ideas what on earth 3 car 221s could be put to use doing

Here's an idea. Convert them into 11 "eight car" trains and use the remaining power cars alongside six EMU carriages, meaning there'd be enough power to
move it over short distances under diesel power (but not enough to run long distances)?

You'd get a set of DMUs and a set of EMUs a lot cheaper than building a new set of EMUs

Would this work?

 

[Class 33]

That's me. I live in Bristol and travelling XC via Brum is a virtual non-starter.

XCs virtual monopoly of the Cheltenham-Birmingham section means that fares to the North from Bristol via Brum are very high, with only a handful of cheap advance ticket being released.

Travelling from Bristol to the North via London, which in BR days was always much more expensive than via Brum is now generally much cheaper!

As an example, Bristol - Leeds advance single tickets are mostly £60 plus, with very small nos available in the £25-£30 bracket.
Travel via London and you won't have much trouble getting Bristol - London for £10 and London - Leeds for £11.25.

I'm going up North for a 7 day NE rover soon, so I have investigated this quite thoroughly.

5 stars for FGW on the ticket front by the way, booked all my advance tickets online, delivered in a couple of days first class post for no charge.

Yes their fares are extortionate. In the case of Bristol-York for example, £63 single or £89 return is ridiculous. Only a small number of £32.50 advance single tickets are usually available.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of cheap advance tickets going from London with East Cost to be fair though.

I've found a bizzarre way of getting cheaper tickets from Bristol-York. Bristol-Manchester via Newport with FGW and Arriva Trains Wales for £17 single, then onto York with Transpenine Express for £6.50 single. £23.50 single, £47 return. Takes somewhat longer, but if you enjoy train journeys that's not such a bad thing. And you get to avoid the Voyagers too.

 

[Ivo]

Hardly "bizzarre" (bizarre - sorry, I'm a trainee teacher) with XC though. I'll repeat my one from earlier, with an extra tidbit from Mojo which he has since removed.

A variety of Bristol - Birmingham single fares:

BRI - BHM (XC) = £40
BRI - CNM (GW) + CNM - BHM (XC) = £26.20
BRI - WOS (GW) + WOS - SMR (GW) = £16.20

All of the above are valid from Bristol to Birmingham (with route diversions on the last example as required).

And then there's this. Instead of Bristol to Birmingham, let's cut it short at the University of Birmingham instead (two stations from New Street), which would require a change of train at Cheltenham Spa (but still travelling with CrossCountry), and using the exact route an XC train would take (i.e. the shortest in this case, skipping Gloucester and Worcester); not too surprisingly allowing for their proximity, this costs the same as going through to Birmingham. All prices before the first line are FGW prices; after the second, they are LM prices. The intermediate price is quoted by XC themselves.

BRI - LWH = £1.50
LWH - SRD = £1.50
SRD - FIT = £1.90
FIT - BPW = £1.70
BPW - YAE = £1.90
YAE - CDU = £4.10
CDU - CNM = £5.00
CNM - ASC = £4.40
--------------------
ASC - BMV = £6.60
--------------------
BMV - BTG = £2.00
BTG - LOB = £1.10
LOB - NFD = £1.50
NFD - KNN = £1.50
KNN - BRV = £1.50
BRV - SLY = £1.50
SLY - UNI = £1.50

TOTAL COST = £39.20

Yes, even a separate ticket for EVERY pair of intermediate stations, i.e. the total split, is cheaper than going straight through.

 

[bengolding]

Well I travelled from Oakham to Birmingham Intl via New St on the 06:38 XC service [1]. Very pleasantly surprised to see a 3 car 170 turn up, which seemed to accommodate everybody very well with no standees even at Coleshill Parkway.

I was the only occupant of the 9 seat First Class compartment throughout the journey, yet Standard was full upon arrival at New St. I do find that guards on this route tend to do a rigorous job of checking tickets after each stop, which is good. One thing I did notice is that Nuneaton is now apparently in a Penalty Fares Zone, yet customers boarding there still bought tickets on board. Are XC guards unable to issue fines in a penalty fare zone or do RPIs only have that power?

[1] Could have arrived earlier changing at Nuneaton but the filthy 1 car dogbox to Coventry didn't appeal. I made an unadvertised 3 min connection onto the 08:03 Bournemouth service, where First was equally rather quiet yet I was at least offered a tea for the 8 min journey.