Why does everybody hate XC?

[Geezertronic]

One idea to slighty increase the capacity on XC for you....

* Shift the remaining class 180s from Northern/ East Coast to Hull Trains and Grand Central. (Once northern have found some other sutiable stock of course!)
* Then move the three HSTs that Grand Central have to Virgin Trains, for the through services between London Euston & Holyhead. (If possible also, obtain an additional HST set from EMT.)
* Finally, move the relevant number of Super Voyagers into the XC franchise.

I would love to see a HST set pull out of Euston but it'll never happen

 

[Mojo]

I would love to see a HST set pull out of Euston but it'll never happen

You could always find some videos online of it happening not that many years ago!

 

[Geezertronic]

You could always find some videos online of it happening not that many years ago!

In Virgin Trains colours?

 

[sprinterguy]

In Virgin Trains colours?

Yep, and in Intercity livery before that. The good old days...

 

[Mojo]

In Virgin Trains colours?

Yes, they used to run several times a day on North Wales services (and according to a YouTube video I've just found; to other destinations as well). I have some videos but sadly I cannot get them off my antiquated video camera for some reason so they shall have to remain there forever

 

[222007]

The reason for not using the HST's is simple. The voyagers are paid for as are the 170's (in terms of there leasing costs). However the HST's are not and are paid for on a PAYG basis.

 

[222666]

Hello

I think the only people who hate XC are mainly non-enthusiast traveling public who get crammed in voyagers on south - north, sometimes I think they are a victim of their own succsess like virgin it seems to me they are more busy now? But the thing is if you go to Derby you will see maybe four or five XC DMUs at one instance, unlike in ICXC you might see one HST. I think they're doing a great job, just that the real sad point is todays economic climate will not allow more stock or to open up new routes.
XC is like an "intermediate" [higher frequency] version of ICXC, so it's sad when you can see so much potential for linking up towns & cities with a higher frequency DMU service (as apposed to HST), but expansion potential is being denied.

Interesting about the HSTs as I have seen shorter sets on cotswold FGW; it makes me wonder, can't they use only one 43 then convert some mkIIIs to DBSO? I mean, does it matter at this late stage having only one pointy end (lol). Just seems a bit odd to me there are complaints of Desiro being too heavy but here we have ageing HST with TWO locos?

 

[Donny Dave]

One idea to slighty increase the capacity on XC for you....

* Shift the remaining class 180s from Northern/ East Coast to Hull Trains and Grand Central. (Once northern have found some other sutiable stock of course!)
* Then move the three HSTs that Grand Central have to Virgin Trains, for the through services between London Euston & Holyhead. (If possible also, obtain an additional HST set from EMT.)
* Finally, move the relevant number of Super Voyagers into the XC franchise.

Good plan, just 1 tiny little flaw. What stock can Northern get to replace the 180s they currently have?

Mind you, as they are stretched it does beg the question as to why they don't make more use of their HST's! I suspect it comes down to money...

Exactly, it is money. The Voyagers are on a "wet" lease (where all the maintanence is included), while the HSTs are on a "dry" lease (XC have to pay all the maintanence costs themselves).

Another thing you have to consider is the Track Access Charges. A 220 costs roughly 34p/mile, a 221 roughly 65p/mile where as a 2+6 HST is roughly 96p/mile.

The final factor is fuel. A HST will use roughly 600 litres/hour (figure is for both power cars), compared to the 60-80 litres/hour per QSK19 in use on each 220/221.

 

[tbtc]

Good plan, just 1 tiny little flaw. What stock can Northern get to replace the 180s they currently have?

Northern are set to lose the 180s (which are only subloaned from East Coast) being replaced with some old 142s and 150s from FGW/ LM (as well as losing some 156s to EMT and not getting back 158s from ScotRail)

 

[mindfeeder]

My dislike for XC comes from the fact I use their rather poor and overcrowded service from Leamington to Coventry on a weekly basis.

Plus Voyagers smell of feces.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My dislike for XC comes from the fact I use their rather poor and overcrowded service from Leamington to Coventry on a weekly basis.

Plus Voyagers smell of feces.

Whats feces ?

Could jump Chiltern to Moor St, walk across Birmingham and get LM/VT down to Coventry

 

[bengolding]

Extremely well used by standard class passengers thats a massive bug bear that people seem so *insert word* that they dont notice first class is first class despite walking through door with first class on them and stickers in the windows with first class on them lamps on tables and the headrest covers with first class on them. As im able to take more action than mumrar i take a zero tolerence approach to this because there are certain people who take the p!ss and dont even look through the rest of the train!

I'll be travelling on either the 6:39/7:21/8:21 from Oakham to Birmingham later this week. If you're the guard on any of these trains, then I expect you to take this zero tolerance approach when the train most likely becomes full and standing past Nuneaton, given it will likely be a 2 car 170!

Is it still the case that no complimentary refreshments are offered to First Class customers on this route even when this is an on board trolley?

 

[Class 33]

I don't like the Voyagers, and try to avoid travelling on them if atall possible. If I ever do get on any and I'm travelling south from Birmingham I've pretty much allways got a job to find a decent window seat. And the only so called "window seats" free are in fact not window seats atall, because they're next to a pillar! Seems nobody likes those seats! I now usually get one of the Cardiff services from Birmingham formed of the far more comfortable Class 170's as far as Cheltenham and then change there. And it's usually pretty easy to get a seat on these too.

Ridiculous how most of their long distance services are formed of just 4 or 5 carriages. Can't they bring back some more HST's? And/Or even be able to get hold of and use some Class 67's and mk2 carriages?

 

[LE Greys]

The final factor is fuel. A HST will use roughly 600 litres/hour (figure is for both power cars), compared to the 60-80 litres/hour per QSK19 in use on each 220/221.

Which means 240-320 l/hr for a 220, 300-400l/hr for a 221. However that's actually more fuel per seat, since you would need a pair of 220s to give the same capacity as a 2+7 HST (thus 480-640 l/hr) and a pair of 221s to equal a 2+8 (600-800 l/hr). False economy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't like the Voyagers, and try to avoid travelling on them if atall possible. If I ever do get on any and I'm travelling south from Birmingham I've pretty much allways got a job to find a decent window seat. And the only so called "window seats" free are in fact not window seats atall, because they're next to a pillar! Seems nobody likes those seats! I now usually get one of the Cardiff services from Birmingham formed of the far more comfortable Class 170's as far as Cheltenham and then change there. And it's usually pretty easy to get a seat on these too.

I'm no fan of Voyagers, not after several unfortunate experiences on the ECML when in a hurry to get somewhere. However, I tend to travel on them rather than Desiros on the South Western, so we could be worse off than we are.

Ridiculous how most of their long distance services are formed of just 4 or 5 carriages. Can't they bring back some more HST's? And/Or even be able to get hold of and use some Class 67's and mk2 carriages?

There aren't any more HSTs available, Grand Central snapped them all up. Virgin should never have let the HSTs go, but they thought they could do more with less. Really, Arriva have been lumbered with all the mistakes made by Virgin, and are now losing status fast. The same thing happened with Trans-Pennine when the 158 took over. DMU operation tends to degrade service quality. EMUs do to a lesser extent (or perhaps slower if the Southern Electric experience is anything to go by).

 

[Geezertronic]

Virgin should never have let the HSTs go, but they thought they could do more with less. Really, Arriva have been lumbered with all the mistakes made by Virgin, and are now losing status fast.

Virgin XC could only work with what the DfT allowed them to so even they were lumbered with the mistakes made by the DfT. And Arriva don't need Virgin's help to make mistakes, they seem to be doing pretty well on their own.

 

[D6975]

It may be self defeating to charge these high fares if, as I suspect, people are simply either not travelling, or finding ways to avoid XC priced tickets.

I also forgot to emntion earlier the ridiculous and unworkable restrictions that XC introduced!

That's me. I live in Bristol and travelling XC via Brum is a virtual non-starter.

XCs virtual monopoly of the Cheltenham-Birmingham section means that fares to the North from Bristol via Brum are very high, with only a handful of cheap advance ticket being released.

Travelling from Bristol to the North via London, which in BR days was always much more expensive than via Brum is now generally much cheaper!

As an example, Bristol - Leeds advance single tickets are mostly £60 plus, with very small nos available in the £25-£30 bracket.
Travel via London and you won't have much trouble getting Bristol - London for £10 and London - Leeds for £11.25.

I'm going up North for a 7 day NE rover soon, so I have investigated this quite thoroughly.

5 stars for FGW on the ticket front by the way, booked all my advance tickets online, delivered in a couple of days first class post for no charge.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, i often chose to go via london to travel to the North. In 2004, it was cheaper to go to leeds from Swansea using FC Advance fares than it was on an XC priced Advance via Brum!

In the days of Virgin, I was planning a trip to newcastle, and being without a PC at the time, I rang Virgin telesales. The guy advised me to split the tickets at Bristol Parkway to get the cost down!

What I was really getting at though, was the well known split at Cheltenham Spa trick for South West passengers, who can save a packet on the through fares from places like Plymouth to Birmingham and points north. As the fares to Cheltenham are priced by FGW, most of the trip is udnertaken on a cheaper ticket, and as all trains stop there anyway, one can travel throughout on a through train without paying XC's silly prices!

I think this is where their business plan has come unstuck! Add in people finding ways around their afternoon restrictions as well, and we can see how revenue is lower than forecast and yet the trains are still rammed on the central sections. You can just imagine the bean counters rubbing their hands with glee as they put in their franchise bid:

'Oh look, we can extract 27& more revenue on these flows, 35% more on this one, the tight wads will go by coach and there won;t be so much overcrowding, of course we will be able to afford the bid'

Unfortunately, their knowledge of rail ticketing was simply not good enough! And apart from the split I've quoted, there must be many more in other parts of the country!

 

[Templecombe]

I love XC don't like first tbh

 

[Greenback]

I love XC don't like first tbh

First have got a lot better in the last couple of years, although I hate the interior of the HST's now and find them extremely uncomfortable and claustrophobic.

I was impressed with their services in Cornwall last week. Except for the 1 hour late running from London on Sunday 11 July, the fact that sometimes tickets weren't checked regularly or at all, plus the cafe opening times being rather haphazard on the HST's (dreaded stock taking ready for a crew change at Plymouth!) and that they have introduced PF's!

Actually, after typing that I've changed my mind, they are rubbish!

 

[Templecombe]

the things about first are they never allow time to connect at castle cary there weymouth trains are idiotic and there stock is really bad specialy the 143/153/150's

 

[Ivo]

Sorry Templecombe; you're in the minority there. No matter how poor FGW are (or rather were), XC are the worst period. To get to Brum, if I'm in a rush I split at Cheltenham. If I'm not, I go via Worcester (two-and-a-half times cheaper than a straight forward single from Bristol to Brum).

As for Weymouth? There just isn't enough demand for anything greater than a 150. I arrived at Westbury to meet TheWalrus on a Weymouth service a couple of weeks ago, and quit frankly they could have used a 153. Instead, it was two 150s. Pointless.

 

[Templecombe]

Sorry Templecombe; you're in the minority there. No matter how poor FGW are (or rather were), XC are the worst period. To get to Brum, if I'm in a rush I split at Cheltenham. If I'm not, I go via Worcester (two-and-a-half times cheaper than a straight forward single from Bristol to Brum).

As for Weymouth? There just isn't enough demand for anything greater than a 150. I arrived at Westbury to meet TheWalrus on a Weymouth service a couple of weeks ago, and quit frankly they could have used a 153. Instead, it was two 150s. Pointless.

there was demand till first screwed it up for every one I mean 3 hours to get to Temple meads from Yetminster and the guy hardly took it out of notch 3

 

[MCR247]

You see, on the railway there are these stupid things called speed limits. You may seen them on the road as well! hock: If he had gone quicker, what would be the point. Just putting more CO2 into the atmosphere to sit idling at the next signal or station

 

[starrymarkb]

Its known that arriva didn't want XC, but rather then have an in house bid team they contracted it out. They are now learning the hard way that you keep an eye on your contractors

 

[Greenback]

I may be naive here, but why did they bid if they didn't want it? What's the point in paying to bid for something you don't want?

 

[Ivo]

Chelsea Football Club stance:

Buy the franchise so that others can't. Then ignore it.

 

[starrymarkb]

They intended to put a sensible bid in, but their contractor went all out to win, remember they were rejected from east coast for an excessively high bid in the same round of franchising

 

[222007]

They intended to put a sensible bid in, but their contractor went all out to win, remember they were rejected from east coast for an excessively high bid in the same round of franchising

Thats not how it appears or sounds from the briefs and meetings ive had at work

 

[chris89]

First time i traveled with XC it was alright. But was before the Voyagers were refubished, but was rather crowed at New Street.

But i shall pass my judgement on XC again on the 30th of august whilst i travel to Edinburgh with them since VT are affected by works. But first class so i can't complain.

Chris

 

[222666]

They're chocka everywhere, except maybe in the weekday off-peak, or late nights, even then they're never empty.

A TOC that charges fairly high prices & are still packed out are surely more deserving of new stock, I think it's bad to blame them when they're not allowed to expand.