Why does everybody hate XC?

[350401]

I was actually the person who put the current seating figures on the Class 220/221 Wiki page - on several journeys between Stockport and Piccadilly, I've counted the seat numbers. Its 44 seats in Coach A, 70 seats in Coach B and C and 68 seats in Coach D. Total 182 standard seats in Class 220 and 252 seats in Class 221. An EMT 158 has 76 seats in Coach A and 72 seats in Coach C (Disabled Coach) - total 148 seats.

Thus a 4 coach Class 220 has 34 additional standard class seats than a 2 coach 158. Its hardly a radical improvement but would add significant capacity to the Liverpool - Norwich route, being a 60 seat addition per diagram (once 1st class is taken into account). Of course from 2011, EMT should be operating 4 coach 158's on this route, which obviously beat 4 coach 220's hands down - having 296 seats in Standard versus 182 seats. Thus its a a difference of 114 standard class seats (or 88 seats overall), despite both being 4 cars - which really does go to show how much space is wasted in a Class 220!

 

[TGV]

I could just about agree with the last poster, I got one of the last XC services to Bristol Temple Meads and although there were plenty of seats, the whole train looked like a rubbish bin.
Would have been nice if a cleaner got on at Bristol Parkway or the stop before Parkway to litter pick the train as East Coast do on all services.

Hampshire passengers must be tidier than west country passengers then!

 

[harz99]

A lot of my gripes about Crosscountry are due to the Voyagers.

Voyagers are completely unsuitable for long distance Intercity operation: The trains are too short and have woefully inadequate luggage space for the Intercity operator with the highest percentage of leisure travellers with large amounts of luggage, to the extent that these so called "Intercity" trains no longer have even so much as a shop. There never was a restaurant service available from when the Voyagers were new, and this from a TOC where journeys can be perhaps 8 hours long.

The first class service provision is poor, which is partly down to the inadequacies of the Voyager design and partly to Arriva's seeming lack of interest in attempting to provide anything better. The catering trolley is a useful feature, but even that is dependent on the aisles not being filled with standing passengers and excess luggage to make it's trip down the train.

A lot of time the engine noise is excessive, and the seating layout on the Voyagers is terrible. I'd like to be able to see the view outside when I'm travelling through Britain's varied landscape for 5 hours thank you very much.

And the toilets still absolutely stink eight years after these trains were introduced and the problems first emerged, whilst it seems that most other operators who faced these problems have largely solved this issue.

And I notice that the old problems with non-functioning or dysfunctional toilet doors is resurfacing again, as I have experienced TWICE in just the last two days on two seperate trains, leading to revealing all to an unlucky audience of standing passengers unfortunate enough to be stuck in the vestibule outside as the door suddenly decides that it's had enough of remaining closed, or someone man-handles the door open as all the electrics are shot. What on earth is wrong with proper door locks that consist of a small length of metal attached to a small handle that turns with a "click"? Instead of all these very clever but highly temperamental electronic systems.

Crosscountry also have 5 HSTs that are shamefully underused when they could provide so much extra capacity on the longest distance services (Although at the moment 4 out of the 5 trains are in use on Saturdays, so that's not currently so much of an issue)

I don't have as many complaints with the Turbostar operated services, which are generally more reliable and seemingly better maintained and more pleasant to travel on, but some of the aforementioned service based troubles still apply. When travelling on the core XC section between Cheltenham and Derby, which I do regularly, I generally choose to travel on a Turbostar service instead of a Voyager as I find the 170s far more agreeable to travel on. I do wish that all the XC 170s were three carriages though (Is the transfer of the LM 170/6 centre cars to XC still going ahead?).

I had to smile when I read this - almost all the above except for the noise levels and lack of carriages could equally be aimed at Virgin's Pendolino sets (in fact even the lack of carriages would apply for standard pax on some Pendolino units) - yet it isn't.

In plain simple terms, modern long distance stock from the Mk4's onwards is simply there to transport you from a to b; ambience and comfort levels just don't come into it - if they did the awful claustrophobic Mallard refurbs on the former East Coast stock would never have been allowed, neither would the cramped conditions on Pendos/Voyagers etc. etc.

XC is just a convenient whipping boy!!!!!!

 

[Shrub Hill]

for me the whole xc experience is dire, travelling on a less than half full train back from devon with mainly holiday makers you struggle to find room for suitcases, the costs are extortionate in comparison to other operators and where i live in the east midlands if you want to travel anywhere east or west you may as well drive until you can find another operator, if you don't have a choice of course and you have to pay over the odds to travel,don't expect a trolley service or a window to look out of, just pay your money and squeeze in. the voyagers for me are just an insult to every fare paying passenger and the sooner they are off the railways the better, as for xc, £13 off peak return tamworth to derby, No Thanks!

 

[harz99]

I was actually the person who put the current seating figures on the Class 220/221 Wiki page - on several journeys between Stockport and Piccadilly, I've counted the seat numbers. Its 44 seats in Coach A, 70 seats in Coach B and C and 68 seats in Coach D. Total 182 standard seats in Class 220 and 252 seats in Class 221. An EMT 158 has 76 seats in Coach A and 72 seats in Coach C (Disabled Coach) - total 148 seats.

Thus a 4 coach Class 220 has 34 additional standard class seats than a 2 coach 158. Its hardly a radical improvement but would add significant capacity to the Liverpool - Norwich route, being a 60 seat addition per diagram (once 1st class is taken into account). Of course from 2011, EMT should be operating 4 coach 158's on this route, which obviously beat 4 coach 220's hands down - having 296 seats in Standard versus 182 seats. Thus its a a difference of 114 standard class seats (or 88 seats overall), despite both being 4 cars - which really does go to show how much space is wasted in a Class 220!

Or how the seats in the 158s are even more cramped together, and the luggage space even scarcer?

 

[lm321412]

Or how the seats in the 158s are even more cramped together, and the luggage space even scarcer?

Well personally, I find that there is plenty of luggage room (and bicycle room) on Class 158s and the same legroom as 220/221s plus all the windows to seats are lined up fairly well.

 

[sprinterguy]

I had to smile when I read this - almost all the above except for the noise levels and lack of carriages could equally be aimed at Virgin's Pendolino sets (in fact even the lack of carriages would apply for standard pax on some Pendolino units) - yet it isn't.

In plain simple terms, modern long distance stock from the Mk4's onwards is simply there to transport you from a to b; ambience and comfort levels just don't come into it - if they did the awful claustrophobic Mallard refurbs on the former East Coast stock would never have been allowed, neither would the cramped conditions on Pendos/Voyagers etc. etc.

XC is just a convenient whipping boy!!!!!!

I have many more foibles and problems with Crosscountry services than I do with Virgin Pendos (and I travel on both fairly regularly). I agree that there have been, and still are some, problems with the Pendolinos, but many of these have been overcome since they were introduced, whilst Crosscountry's Voyagers still seem to retain all of their earlier troubles. Agree that Pendolinos have the biggest overprovision of first class EVER. Utterly stupid. At least the balance will be redressed a bit when they recieve their extra carriages (Those that are getting them at any rate). Problems with the Voyagers seem to manifest themselves with greater frequency than on the Pendolinos in my experience of travelling on both, and I think the Pendolinos have improved to some extent since they were new.

Do also agree that comfort and and ambience are either greatly reduced or completely non existant on many modern trains compared to mark 3s and mark 4s.

Or how the seats in the 158s are even more cramped together, and the luggage space even scarcer?

I much prefer the refurbed EMT 158s to Voyagers. The 158 interior is much pleasanter (Though I've never travelled on a peak hour Liverpool-Norwich train, I may think differently if I had).

 

[IanXC]

In the frequency-capacity trade of that it seems VXC/DafT got wrong when the new stock was ordered, what are peoples thoughts about reforming the 221/222s?

eg 22 5 car 221s could become 11 7 car and 11 3 car units - so if they reduced the frequency and perhaps recast some of the stopping points the service could be couched in a much more InterCity light and help to encourage "short hop" passengers off XC and onto local operators too, helping XC to get away from the trains are full but were losing money problem.

If that makes any sense? Any ideas what on earth 3 car 221s could be put to use doing

 

[Greenback]

They would be better than a 153 on heart of Wales and Pembroke Dock services!

 

[bengolding]

By 'most times' I take it you mean 'some times'. I have worked the XC services to Stansted, and before with Central Trains. They have busy sections, more especially on the peak trains. But after leaving Leicester, a Stansted bound service has few passengers until connecting with the East Coast and some passengers at Ely. The stock also needs a balance for the Off Peak period, as well as the Peak times too. When I work the last Stansted-New St, the most passengers you see after Peterborough is about 20-25. Not very good for a 3 car 170. On a couple of services the length of train is affected by the service calling at Manea. Only 2 car 170s are allowed to call there.

As you work this route, how are you finding the First Class loadings are faring on the 170s between Stansted and Birmingham?

 

[Aictos]

First class when I use XC between Cambridge and Peterborough does seem to be rather lightly loaded but I guess at times it can be busy, the only time I did see it busy was when we had the overheads come down in Welwyn North tunnel and a large amount of people were using XC to do Cambridge to Peterborough for their connections.

 

[mumrar]

As you work this route, how are you finding the First Class loadings are faring on the 170s between Stansted and Birmingham?

During working hours you can find anywhere up to 4/5 people at some points, but for the most part it is hardly used. But there is only 9 seats anyway.

 

[leedstraindude]

I was actually the person who put the current seating figures on the Class 220/221 Wiki page - on several journeys between Stockport and Piccadilly, I've counted the seat numbers. Its 44 seats in Coach A, 70 seats in Coach B and C and 68 seats in Coach D. Total 182 standard seats in Class 220 and 252 seats in Class 221. An EMT 158 has 76 seats in Coach A and 72 seats in Coach C (Disabled Coach) - total 148 seats.

XC 1st class coaches (coach A) on a 220/221 maybe numbered upto 44, but there is only actually seats for 26 people plus one wheelchair in there.

 

[222007]

As you work this route, how are you finding the First Class loadings are faring on the 170s between Stansted and Birmingham?

Extremely well used by standard class passengers thats a massive bug bear that people seem so *insert word* that they dont notice first class is first class despite walking through door with first class on them and stickers in the windows with first class on them lamps on tables and the headrest covers with first class on them. As im able to take more action than mumrar i take a zero tolerence approach to this because there are certain people who take the p!ss and dont even look through the rest of the train!

 

[mumrar]

222007, you'll see a thread I started about that some weeks ago buried somewhere (I really can't be arsed looking). Yep, always plenty of standard pax using it, and after they say 'I didn't notice' it's either followed by 'it's not very good' or 'but if nobody else is using it'. To the first I respond 'if it's not very good then you'll have little qualms leaving'. To the second 'well, asuming you own a car, you're not using that. Will you be happy for someone to take it for a spin without paying?'. On rare occassions some pax a silly enough to try and belittle me in to ignoring them, maybe saying about the fact they're a season ticket holder 'I don't pay all this money to stand everyday' - well, you certainly don't pay your reduced fare (versus SDRs) to sit down, you pay it for a journey provided by whichever TOCs applicable. There's no guarantee of a seat, or even a train under certain circumstances.

 

[Greenback]

222007, you'll see a thread I started about that some weeks ago buried somewhere (I really can't be arsed looking). Yep, always plenty of standard pax using it, and after they say 'I didn't notice' it's either followed by 'it's not very good' or 'but if nobody else is using it'. To the first I respond 'if it's not very good then you'll have little qualms leaving'. To the second 'well, asuming you own a car, you're not using that. Will you be happy for someone to take it for a spin without paying?'. On rare occassions some pax a silly enough to try and belittle me in to ignoring them, maybe saying about the fact they're a season ticket holder 'I don't pay all this money to stand everyday' - well, you certainly don't pay your reduced fare (versus SDRs) to sit down, you pay it for a journey provided by whichever TOCs applicable. There's no guarantee of a seat, or even a train under certain circumstances.

Now that's the type of approach I like! In the unlikely event someone has made a genuine mistake I'm sure they'll have no problem apologising moving into standard. Those that come out with the sort of comments you list are just trying it on.

 

[sprinterguy]

XC 1st class coaches (coach A) on a 220/221 maybe numbered upto 44, but there is only actually seats for 26 people plus one wheelchair in there.

The reference for coach A refers to the DMS (not the DMF), may have been better for the OP of the info to quote the carriage classification for clarity, but that's nitpicking.

My figure of 174 standard for a 4 carriage 220 came from the platform 5 books, which I generally take to be correct, but having never counted the seats in a Voyager personally then perhaps the info is wrong, makes little difference really.

eg 22 5 car 221s could become 11 7 car and 11 3 car units - so if they reduced the frequency and perhaps recast some of the stopping points the service could be couched in a much more InterCity light and help to encourage "short hop" passengers off XC and onto local operators too, helping XC to get away from the trains are full but were losing money problem.

If that makes any sense? Any ideas what on earth 3 car 221s could be put to use doing

The three carriage trains would be unfeasible: They would have an entire driving car of first class with only 26 seats even if it was declassified, and a formation of DMS-MS-DMF would only have 130 seats in total; less than a two carriage 158. Even ripping out all the first class seats and putting in standard 2+2 formation wouldn't increase it that much. And I would assume that a 3 carriage 221 would be seriously fuel thirsty compared to a 158.

If Crosscountry frequencies were halved, then I can see the 7 carriage 221s having more merit, could possibly use the three carriage 221s inbetween to form a "hub and spoke" network serving the intermediate stations over shorter distances after taking stops out of the "Intercity" services.

 

[222007]

222007, you'll see a thread I started about that some weeks ago buried somewhere (I really can't be arsed looking). Yep, always plenty of standard pax using it, and after they say 'I didn't notice' it's either followed by 'it's not very good' or 'but if nobody else is using it'. To the first I respond 'if it's not very good then you'll have little qualms leaving'. To the second 'well, asuming you own a car, you're not using that. Will you be happy for someone to take it for a spin without paying?'. On rare occassions some pax a silly enough to try and belittle me in to ignoring them, maybe saying about the fact they're a season ticket holder 'I don't pay all this money to stand everyday' - well, you certainly don't pay your reduced fare (versus SDRs) to sit down, you pay it for a journey provided by whichever TOCs applicable. There's no guarantee of a seat, or even a train under certain circumstances.

I've used some of these myself i always enjoy quoting conditions of carriage in terms of not paying for a seat. We have both probably come across the regulars and i think its equalling frustrating for all of us staff.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I've used some of these myself i always enjoy quoting conditions of carriage in terms of not paying for a seat. We have both probably come across the regulars and i think its equalling frustrating for all of us staff.

If only the TPE guards were as keen to move people out of my (booked) first class seat, between Leeds and Manchester, last thing on a Saturday night.
:roll:

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Put yourself at the footplate of XC's Operations... They are so stretched across the country that anything they do, will most likely be shot down by someone elsewhere losing a service, or a timetabled slot. Its stupid what people have against XC because they are owned by Arriva - some people slag them off without even using them.

I am in no way a full-on supporter of XC, but the services I have used before such as Edinburgh - Newcastle, and Darlington - Penzance were relatively good, with no problems. I have nothing against them, but each to their own I suppose.

 

[Greenback]

A voice of reason! there are problems and difficulties with all franchise operators. The worst thing about XC is capacity, caused by the ridiculous Voyagers, but as trains I don;t dislike them because they are DMU's, or have an engine under the floor. I quite like them internally as long as I can see out!

Mind you, as they are stretched it does beg the question as to why they don't make more use of their HST's! I suspect it comes down to money...

 

[tbtc]

A voice of reason! there are problems and difficulties with all franchise operators. The worst thing about XC is capacity, caused by the ridiculous Voyagers, but as trains I don;t dislike them because they are DMU's, or have an engine under the floor. I quite like them internally as long as I can see out!

Mind you, as they are stretched it does beg the question as to why they don't make more use of their HST's! I suspect it comes down to money...

I agree with all of that.

The HST one confuses me too, as the services through Sheffield are generally pretty busy. I guess the logic is that a busy rush hour service at Leeds/ Birmingham is also going to be emptier on the Devon stretch (which is one reason I'd have shorter distances for most services.

 

[Greenback]

The trains are probably going to be emptier between Exeter and Plymouth compared to Leeds and Birmingham at any time of the day!

I don't know why they don't run HST's on shorter trips, such as Sheffield to Bristol.

 

[tbtc]

The trains are probably going to be emptier between Exeter and Plymouth compared to Leeds and Birmingham at any time of the day!

I don't know why they don't run HST's on shorter trips, such as Sheffield to Bristol.

You could stick HSTs on the short trips and then double Voyagers on the long trips (with only one Voyager running on beyond Bristol/ Newcastle etc) - that'd sort out the capacity problems.

Of course, if we didn't have open access on the ECML then there's the best part of twenty trains that could have been used on Cross Country where there is existing demand (rather than being used on start up routes where there isn't the same level of demand) - if the railways were run centrally then they may have come to this conclusion (rather than lots of little operators each fighting for their slice)

 

[Metroland]

Cross country loadings seem beyond capacity on the central Reading-Manchester, and Sheffield/Leeds-Bristol stretches. There's still crowding out as far as Southampton, Newcastle, Preston and Exeter, but beyond that the loads are very modest. Certainly by the time one gets to Bournemouth it's 1/4 full.

 

[Ivo]

Where did Preston come from?

 

[SirBroccoli]

One idea to slighty increase the capacity on XC for you....

* Shift the remaining class 180s from Northern/ East Coast to Hull Trains and Grand Central. (Once northern have found some other sutiable stock of course!)
* Then move the three HSTs that Grand Central have to Virgin Trains, for the through services between London Euston & Holyhead. (If possible also, obtain an additional HST set from EMT.)
* Finally, move the relevant number of Super Voyagers into the XC franchise.

 

[Metroland]

Where did Preston come from?

I'm talking about 'cross country' services in general, IE main line services that do not go through London even if they are not run by Arriva.

London services also thin out the further away you are from London generally.

 

[350401]

The reference for coach A refers to the DMS (not the DMF), may have been better for the OP of the info to quote the carriage classification for clarity, but that's nitpicking.

My figure of 174 standard for a 4 carriage 220 came from the platform 5 books, which I generally take to be correct, but having never counted the seats in a Voyager personally then perhaps the info is wrong, makes little difference really.

By Coach A, I was referring to the DMF, which has 26 seats + 1 disabled space, despite the bizarre seat numbering. A 4 carriage 220 originally had 168 standard class seats under Virgin, then AXC stated that they added 14 seats through removing tables/some luggage racks in the centre of the coach - thus getting 182 seats per 220. On hops between Stockport and Manchester, I've been able to verify that this is true - and so the seating is as follows:

26: DMF - Coach A, 70: MS - Coach C, 68: MS - Coach D, 44: DMS - Coach F.

From experience, I'd say the seating in the EMT 158's is MUCH nicer and has alot more legroom that a Voyager. Its actually tolerable with a person sat next to you - on AXC, the seats are so narrow, that I tend to get sardined against the wall. Plus the pull down tables are much better, and have laptop pull-outs, which I find very useful. Additionally, the trolley does tend to actually come around and your seat has a window

 

[sprinterguy]

By Coach A, I was referring to the DMF, which has 26 seats + 1 disabled space, despite the bizarre seat numbering. A 4 carriage 220 originally had 168 standard class seats under Virgin, then AXC stated that they added 14 seats through removing tables/some luggage racks in the centre of the coach - thus getting 182 seats per 220. On hops between Stockport and Manchester, I've been able to verify that this is true - and so the seating is as follows:

26: DMF - Coach A, 70: MS - Coach C, 68: MS - Coach D, 44: DMS - Coach F.

From experience, I'd say the seating in the EMT 158's is MUCH nicer and has alot more legroom that a Voyager. Its actually tolerable with a person sat next to you - on AXC, the seats are so narrow, that I tend to get sardined against the wall. Plus the pull down tables are much better, and have laptop pull-outs, which I find very useful. Additionally, the trolley does tend to actually come around and your seat has a window

Fair enough, confusion on my part The mention of coach A when totting up the standard class total was what threw me.