Why do Sunday services start so late?

[Pyreneenguy]

I was just wondering why Sunday services still start so late in the morning ? For example, the first train out of Liverpool Lime St towards Wigan and Preston is at 08.47. As a non UK resident I'm a little out of touch with day to day living in the country but would have thought that there would be more demand for earlier trains.

 

[DarloRich]

I was just wondering why Sunday services still start so late in the morning ? For example, the first train out of Liverpool Lime St towards Wigan and Preston is at 08.47. As a non UK resident I'm a little out of touch with day to day living in the country but would have thought that there would be more demand for earlier trains.

they don't start at all on my line! I suspect it is to allow a bit longer for engineering work to take place and to reduce staff overtime perhaps

 

[Adam0984]

In my opinion it harks back to the days when Sunday was a day of rest, shopping wasn’t as popular as now and railways were generally a lot quieter. Railways are slowly waking up to the fact that a more frequent service is needed and a service on lines which previously didn’t have a Sunday service.

 

[Hadders]

Saturday services generally finish earlier and Sunday services start later on most lines to allow an opportunity for engineering inspection etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was just wondering why Sunday services still start so late in the morning ? For example, the first train out of Liverpool Lime St towards Wigan and Preston is at 08.47. As a non UK resident I'm a little out of touch with day to day living in the country but would have thought that there would be more demand for earlier trains.

It used to be the case in the 1990s that other than the DalesRail services which didn't run in the winter the first train north from Preston that went past Oxenholme on a Sunday was something like 1500.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I know it's changing now, what with signalling being centralised to regional ROCs but didn't it always used to be that boxes on certain lines were shut on sunday mornings (eg Sheffield - Lincoln) so no trains could run?

 

[Confused147]

Title should be "Why do Sunday services start so late FROM A LINE NORTH OF LONDON"

 

[Hadders]

Title should be "Why do Sunday services start so late FROM A LINE NORTH OF LONDON"

It might interest you to know that they start later in London too.

 

[robbeech]

I know it's changing now, what with signalling being centralised to regional ROCs but didn't it always used to be that boxes on certain lines were shut on sunday mornings (eg Sheffield - Lincoln) so no trains could run?

The Service (with the exception of the start time) between Sheffield and Lincoln is slightly better for some stations on a Sunday than a Weekday now. Much better than the first train to Sheffield being 1500

 

[SPADTrap]

Religion, when it suits!

 

[LAX54]

Sunday first Sunday train Colchester 0654. Clacton on Sea 0735 Norwich 0700 Yarmouth 0830

 

[WelshBluebird]

How about first train Bath Spa to Cardiff on a Sunday. 10.22 AM, arriving at 11:43 AM. For a service that normally starts at 6.28 AM on a weekday, that is ludicrous! There aren't even any other connecting services via Bristol, so the only way you can do it is getting a very early bus to Bristol then the train from there, or paying extra to get multiple tickets to allow travel via Swindon! Basically means I literally cannot travel back for a midday Sunday kick off at the football and end up travelling the night before and staying at my parents!

 

[The Planner]

How about first train Bath Spa to Cardiff on a Sunday. 10.22 AM, arriving at 11:43 AM. For a service that normally starts at 6.28 AM on a weekday, that is ludicrous! There aren't even any other connecting services via Bristol, so the only way you can do it is getting a very early bus to Bristol then the train from there, or paying extra to get multiple tickets to allow travel via Swindon! Basically means I literally cannot travel back for a midday Sunday kick off at the football and end up travelling the night before and staying at my parents!

That will be the lines where NR get no standard access at all during the week apart from 1 week in 6 and have to cram it all in on a Saturday night Sunday morning? Do we maintain the infrastrucure or not?

 

[Mag_seven]

Its one of those hangovers from when religious observance was commonplace in the country. The rest of the country has now moved on and is now doing other things on Sunday's, but seemingly the railways still seem stuck in the past e.g. boxing day!

 

[WelshBluebird]

That will be the lines where NR get no standard access at all during the week apart from 1 week in 6 and have to cram it all in on a Saturday night Sunday morning? Do we maintain the infrastrucure or not?

I don't buy that at all.

Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff Central services start at 8.35 AM, and Bath Spa to Bristol Temple Meads services start at 9:18 AM.
Indeed, if it wasn't for the longer minimum connection time at Temple Meads, you would actually be able to do a journey from Bath at 9:18 AM, changing onto the 9:41 AM service to Cardiff Central at Bristol.

If we were talking about not having services before 8:30 - I'd agree with you. But to not have a service until 10:20? That is ludicrous in the modern world.

 

[LAX54]

Its one of those hangovers from when religious observance was commonplace in the country. The rest of the country has now moved on and is now doing other things on Sunday's, but seemingly the railways still seem stuck in the past e.g. boxing day!

Or, more than likely connected with what 'The Planner' has said, even here at Colchester it is very tight between getting the engineering work done, OHL re-energised, prepping the units, and getting first train away at 0654.
Course we could cut back the blocks, and have more ESR's !

 

[Comstock]

When I worked at a train depot (over 10 years ago now) Saturday night into Sunday morning was a classic time for doing the longer, more involved exams (inspections) on the units.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done but running a normal weekday service on a Sunday would put more pressure on the maintenance of both trains and track.

 

[SWT_USER]

Title should be "Why do Sunday services start so late FROM A LINE NORTH OF LONDON"

Services don't start at all for several stations on Sundays on one of the main lines in to London (GWML). It's ridiculous.

 

[nw1]

Not too surprising for lightly used lines but more surprising for busy inter-city or urban routes.

For example in autumn 2013 I was staying in the southwestern suburbs of Birmingham and the first Cross-City service got to New Street after 0900, which seems very late.

I'd have thought there'd be demand to have the first services on _principal_ routes at 0700 or so, and certainly around 0800 - in case people needed to travel long-distance, attend weekend conferences, get somewhere for a day out (in the winter months where you have to leave early to avoid running out of daylight) etc.
Even if it's just half the normal frequency, e.g. have the service hourly 0700 to 0900 and then half-hourly after that. Particularly as on some lines you get pre-0500 services at the week... maybe it's a sad fact of modern life that there's more demand for a service at 0445 on a weekday than at 0830 on a Sunday!

An interesting side question is - would they insist on charging premium fares if there was no direct service early in the morning?

SOU to Tisbury is a good example. Looking at April 1 (well into the spring season) you can leave at 06:55 and arrive at 09:10 via Basingstoke, but are charged an eye-watering £35.80 for the privilege. To get the normal fare the earliest you can leave is 10:10, arriving at 11:09 for the normal fare of £15.10. If you wanted to get there before 11:00 and you went via Basingstoke, would they apply an easement?

 

[meolebrace]

Now a 7am Wolves to Barmouth service on a Sunday would be nice.

 

[tsr]

Title should be "Why do Sunday services start so late FROM A LINE NORTH OF LONDON"

Ummm...

Uckfield - London Bridge
Monday-Friday: 2tph morning peak service, then 1tph, starts at 0516.
Saturday: 1tph, starts at 0634.

(These two are reasonable, though there’s always at least one passenger who wants the train crew to get up earlier and “why can’t you be bothered to run one for me at 4am?” )

And then...
Sunday: 1tph only as far as Oxted (most of the day), starts at 1034.

No wonder those trains often cart fresh air around on Sundays...


On a parallel route:
East Grinstead - London Bridge / Victoria (Victoria only on weekends)

Monday-Friday: 4-5tph morning peak service, starts at 0545 (could conceivably fill trains as early as 0530 though)
Saturday: 2tph through the day, starts at 0637
Sunday: 1tph starts at 0820, followed by 2tph from 0912

 

[Ianigsy]

It used to be the case in the 1990s that other than the DalesRail services which didn't run in the winter the first train north from Preston that went past Oxenholme on a Sunday was something like 1500.

I have a feeling that in the late 1980s and early 1990s it was fairly standard for the WCML between Weaver Junction and Carlisle to close for OHLE work on Sundays between New Year and Easter- from Liverpool either via the Halton Curve and Chester or the CLC, Manchester and Macclesfield. Always a good time to see unusual-liveried 47s from the Crewe parcels pool hauling Euston expresses.

To answer the question, I think that the privatised railway inherited a service pattern from BR before the liberalisation of Sunday trading had really set in. The main reasons for travelling on Sundays used to be day trippers heading for the seaside, students going back to university after a weekend at home and people heading home after a weekend away- only the day trip would need a service before lunchtime.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have a feeling that in the late 1980s and early 1990s it was fairly standard for the WCML between Weaver Junction and Carlisle to close for OHLE work on Sundays between New Year and Easter- from Liverpool either via the Halton Curve and Chester or the CLC, Manchester and Macclesfield. Always a good time to see unusual-liveried 47s from the Crewe parcels pool hauling Euston expresses.

To answer the question, I think that the privatised railway inherited a service pattern from BR before the liberalisation of Sunday trading had really set in. The main reasons for travelling on Sundays used to be day trippers heading for the seaside, students going back to university after a weekend at home and people heading home after a weekend away- only the day trip would need a service before lunchtime.

And once privatisation had come in, costs came into it providing services that were affordable rather than in the interests of passengers

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

And once privatisation had come in, costs came into it providing services that were affordable rather than in the interests of passengers

Or to put it another way, how far should public subsidy go towards enabling a particular "lifestyle"? Is there an economic benefit? The problem with Sunday morning travel is that while demand certainly exists, and is rising, is it sufficient to warrant the relatively expensive provision of a rail service? IME an economic level of demand tends on many routes to only occur on a limited number of Sundays each year. However I do think it should be kept under continuous review.

 

[30907]

While lots more people travel to activities on a Sunday now, that doesn't generally include early starts, let alone high volumes of early starts, and it is volume traffic that rail is good at.
I know I live in a traditional part of the country, but the roads round here are usually pretty dead at 0800 and still quiet at 0930 - significantly different from Saturday let alone SX.
My local bus service starts at 0530 SX 0630 Sat 0815 Sun, so its not unique to rail.

 

[Andyh82]

Because people tend to have a lie in on a Sunday. Even if you are making an early start, it’s still usually only early in the context of a Sunday, and would be seen as a late start any other day.

Plus even the shops don’t open until 1000/1030/1100

 

[BluePenguin]

While lots more people travel to activities on a Sunday now, that doesn't generally include early starts, let alone high volumes of early starts, and it is volume traffic that rail is good at.
I know I live in a traditional part of the country, but the roads round here are usually pretty dead at 0800 and still quiet at 0930 - significantly different from Saturday let alone SX.
My local bus service starts at 0530 SX 0630 Sat 0815 Sun, so its not unique to rail.

Travelling to activities on a Sunday does include early starts if you have a long journey to make. I went up to Birmingham last month and needed to be there for 10:00. The earliest train from my local station on a Sunday is 06:34. A whole hour and a half later than the rest of the week but nothing compared to some other places. I think more late running evening services would be very beneficial for people who want to make the most of their weekend away without worrying about what time the last train is. Are the trains quiet where you are in the evening?

 

[Essan]

Sunday services start late (and Boxing Day none at all) just to annoy those of us who work a full 6 day week and would love to make more of our day off, if only we could .....

 

[30907]

Travelling to activities on a Sunday does include early starts if you have a long journey to make.

I don't deny that, but my point is that there are still relatively few travellers about early on a Sunday.

Are the trains quiet where you are in the evening?

Probably, as in many areas, but as my nearest station is 3 miles away I don't see them very often let alone use them!

 

[SWTrainspottin]

Title should be "Why do Sunday services start so late FROM A LINE NORTH OF LONDON"

Why? My first service on a Sunday is at 11:12 and I'm in Newquay. Plenty of other places close to me too that have a late starting Sunday service.