Why do Sunday services start so late?

[PHILIPE]

Why? My first service on a Sunday is at 11:12 and I'm in Newquay. Plenty of other places close to me too that have a late starting Sunday service.

It isn't much earlier on a weekday.

 

[SWTrainspottin]

It isn't much earlier on a weekday.

I know, don't know why when other branch lines in Cornwall get a earlier service.

 

[LeylandLen]

The first Sunday train from here ,to Euston from Preston, leaves about 0900 getting to Euston about 1205.
The first one from Manchester (0805) arrives in Euston about 1055. How are we in the NW meant to enjoy a full Sunday day out in London , esp as some big events like football matches with early Sunday starts , 1200 sometimes, no doubt other events in London this summer?
I fully understand the need for engineering works at weekend but surely some early paths are available on a Sunday ?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There are many maintenance activities which require a blockade of 8 hours or more. For example changing a switch blade on a set of points. The job itself might take 6 hours. You've got an hour to take the possession, set up the worksites and get equipment to site. A similar amount to shut down afterwards. Then think if the Saturday night service finishes at 2330, it might take 30 mins before the last units are stabled and running lines are clear. Similarly in the morning, trains don't just start running the second a possession is given up. Add it all up, and bingo - 8 hour possession, 0001-0800. Last SO arrival 2330, first SU departure 0830.

It's important to remember that possessions can't just be agreed a few days beforehand - if they are disruptive - i.e. remove booked passenger trains - the lead time is at least 20 weeks. Not very practical if a rail defect is uncovered by a track worker etc. Therefore an 8-hour window needs to be built in (or less/more depending on the location and nature of the route) to allow emergent maintenance needs to be met without emergency unplanned works.

 

[ag51ruk]

I know it's changing now, what with signalling being centralised to regional ROCs but didn't it always used to be that boxes on certain lines were shut on sunday mornings (eg Sheffield - Lincoln) so no trains could run?

Still the case in some areas - the first train from Derby to Crewe on a Sunday is after 1430 because the various manual signal boxes and crossings between Derby and Stoke only open for a single shift on a Sunday

 

[PHILIPE]

I know, don't know why when other branch lines in Cornwall get a earlier service.

There was one until approx 3/4 years ago until a decision was made to withdraw it and use the unit to work the present 0628 Exeter to Par to cater for commuters into Plymouth. It only ran for a short time anyway on an experimental basis and was very lightly loaded anyway. Up to that time, there was no early train so back to that position now.

 

[Class 170101]

That will be the lines where NR get no standard access at all during the week apart from 1 week in 6 and have to cram it all in on a Saturday night Sunday morning? Do we maintain the infrastrucure or not?

Or, more than likely connected with what 'The Planner' has said, even here at Colchester it is very tight between getting the engineering work done, OHL re-energised, prepping the units, and getting first train away at 0654.
Course we could cut back the blocks, and have more ESR's !

I agree there is maintenance to be done but NR should work with the operators more. They may well find there is additional access outside the normal rules of the route if they did rather than just play hard ball and demand access and play the infrastructure will fail or a possession will overrun if we don't get additional access.

 

[cuccir]

WiltsWanderer has answered some of the above concerns quite nicely.

I suppose the only alternative would be to run early Sunday services with warnings that these would prone to cancellation at short notice.

 

[The Planner]

I agree there is maintenance to be done but NR should work with the operators more. They may well find there is additional access outside the normal rules of the route if they did rather than just play hard ball and demand access and play the infrastructure will fail or a possession will overrun if we don't get additional access.

Clearly you don't understand the issues we face when trying to agree disruptive access, the operators do not have to agree to it at all and to say we don't work with operators enough is laughable. If there is no capacity for a diversion etc, or the impact is considered too big to their business they will decline it and quite happily take NR to a dispute panel which they are well within their rights to do. Disruptive access has to be in for the CPPP at 26 weeks out nailed down with a good train plan and well over a year if it is to appear in section 7 of the Engineering Access Statement.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The lines being electrified or resignalled generally take Sundays (or whole weekends) for the work, so it's unrealistic to expect early Sunday services on, eg, the GW routes until the work is finished.
The WCML had a terrible weekend service for years during the upgrade, but now is pretty good at least south of Crewe.
Meanwhile Sunday trains on the branches (eg to/from North Wales) are still very poor.

Somebody mentioned the Liverpool-Wigan line. It's only just got extra Sunday local trains, but they start fairly late.
Until last month there were no Sunday stoppers at all, just the hourly Blackpool/Airport semi-fasts which called at extra stations.
There are still no Sunday extras on the Chat Moss route, and none at all to Warrington BQ.
Meanwhile Euston-Birmingham/Manchester get their full weekday 3tph (after a later start).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Someone mentioned the Newquay branch. Ironically the earliest morning service is on Saturdays, 0652 ex Par, returning 0747 ex Newquay. There used to be an earlier service during the week but it was withdrawn due to lack of patronage and on SX the first train from Newquay is 1013!

Speaking of the branches, since January you can now travel on the Friday night 2345 sleeper service from Paddington and make a connection onto every Cornish branch. As follows:
Plymouth arr 0511, connection for Gunnislake dep 0641
Liskeard arr 0604, connection for Looe dep 0610
Par arr 0635, connection for Newquay dep 0652
Truro arr 0705, connection for Falmouth dep 0716
St Erth arr 0740, connection for St Ives dep 0800
Furthermore upon arrival in Penzance 0750 most weeks March-November you can connect onto the Scillonian Ferry, except on dates affected by tidal variations.

Admittedly the Plymouth connection is quite lengthy but there will be covered seating available and hopefully a coffee shop.

 

[Class 170101]

Clearly you don't understand the issues we face when trying to agree disruptive access, the operators do not have to agree to it at all and to say we don't work with operators enough is laughable. If there is no capacity for a diversion etc, or the impact is considered too big to their business they will decline it and quite happily take NR to a dispute panel which they are well within their rights to do. Disruptive access has to be in for the CPPP at 26 weeks out nailed down with a good train plan and well over a year if it is to appear in section 7 of the Engineering Access Statement.

I'm afraid I know all of that. However to get NR to stick to that is extremely challenging. Each of the stages you refer to has merely become yet another opprtunity to just put some extra access in, in recent times, never mind consulting operators on whether its disruptive or not.

 

[dcsprior]

Out of interest, how do first Sunday times compare in Scotland (where shops' trading hours on Sundays aren't restricted) to England and Wales?

 

[30907]

Quick answer. Tweedbank. New route so no historic issues.
Start 3 hours later, finish 45min earlier. 50% weekday frequency.

 

[paddington]

Out of interest, how do first Sunday times compare in Scotland (where shops' trading hours on Sundays aren't restricted) to England and Wales?

Does public transport in any country start at the same time on Sundays as on weekdays? (Barring special services like airport lines / overnight routes, and bearing in mind that Fri-Sat is the weekend in some countries.)

 

[The Planner]

I'm afraid I know all of that. However to get NR to stick to that is extremely challenging. Each of the stages you refer to has merely become yet another opprtunity to just put some extra access in, in recent times, never mind consulting operators on whether its disruptive or not.

And like I said, operators can decline it and they do.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does public transport in any country start at the same time on Sundays as on weekdays? (Barring special services like airport lines / overnight routes, and bearing in mind that Fri-Sat is the weekend in some countries.)

The European standard is to operate a 7-day timetable to the same times, particularly long-distance trains.
Sundays and holidays might then have deletions/extras, but still largely to the same pattern.
You just don't get the 3-pattern GB-like timetable (M-F, Sat, Sun).
But there are also many regional variations, on a seasonal or even weekly basis.
I think Paris-Cherbourg used to be regarded as the most complicated timetable in Europe with exceptions on virtually every day of the week.

 

[IainG81]

I love working Sunday mornings I work at a west London Station and it's such a pleasure to work Sunday morning so quiet and not the stress of a weekday morning.

The reason why there's just not enough people who want to travel to run trains every 15 minutes they would be empty and it would be a waste of time. Be interesting to see how many Crossrail services they run on Sunday mornings.

 

[Llanigraham]

Because it gives us mechanical signallers time to have a proper breakfast, and a cuppa, uninterupted by damned trains, and to clean and polish the Box.

Next?

 

[PHILIPE]

I remember in September at the start of the 1987 Winter Timetable and when sprinterisation started on the Cardiff Valleys with a brand new fleet of 150/2s and with a greatly enhanced train service. It was due to start on a Monday and on the Sunday, the day preceding, and the full Weekday Timetable operated on the Sunday as a "dress rehearsal". Of course, the trains were carrying fresh and in the days before Sunday Shopping hours as we know them now,

 

[richw]

Why? My first service on a Sunday is at 11:12 and I'm in Newquay. Plenty of other places close to me too that have a late starting Sunday service.

We don’t get any on the Looe branch in winter. (Coombe Junction is my nearest station anyway, so doesn’t really count, I can easily walk to liskeard)
On the mainline at liskeard the first train in any direction is just before 10.

 

[E6007]

The European standard is to operate a 7-day timetable to the same times, particularly long-distance trains.

That's a simplistic way of looking at it. While 7 day timetables may be true, there are daily changes, including later starts on Sunday. Take Eurostar for example. That's a (mainly) French service with first trains from Paris on Sunday at 08:13. It's 07:13 the rest of the week and 06:43 on Mondays. From London it's 05:40 Monday to Friday, 06:18 on Saturday but 08:19 on Sunday.

People lie in on Sundays. I do, do you?

 

[Starmill]

Both Lincoln to Nottingham and Lincoln to Sheffield have had absolutely huge increases in Sunday service provision in 2017.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Because it gives us mechanical signallers time to have a proper breakfast, and a cuppa, uninterupted by damned trains, and to clean and polish the Box.

Next?

You are Harry Lambert from Oh, Doctor Beeching! and I claim my five pounds.

 

[nw1]

Travelling to activities on a Sunday does include early starts if you have a long journey to make. I went up to Birmingham last month and needed to be there for 10:00. The earliest train from my local station on a Sunday is 06:34. A whole hour and a half later than the rest of the week but nothing compared to some other places. I think more late running evening services would be very beneficial for people who want to make the most of their weekend away without worrying about what time the last train is. Are the trains quiet where you are in the evening?

Also (as I've mentioned) early starts are forced on a Sunday if you want to do all-day activities which depend on daylight during the Nov-Jan period in particular.
It's not quite as bad as it was in December (sunset now closer to 5pm than 4pm) but even still, something perhaps to be considered. An 11am arrival in December will give you just five hours of daylight.

 

[Philip]

Why should services start any earlier? Why should there be more services? Forgetting the issue of overtime, some rail workers would like a regular day off just like many people want to retain their weekend off.

It's a good thing to leave a day of the week designated as a day of rest as in the case of Sunday. There is too much obsession with commercialization in this country now and it isn't really doing people any good, really. People were happier in the 60s and 70s when Sunday really was 'a day of rest' and no shops opened. A rail service is necessary on Sundays as people still have to travel, but trying to incorporate it into the normal Mon-Sat timetable is wrong on many levels and is only increasing the problem of commercialization in this country.

 

[Ianigsy]

It's a good thing to leave a day of the week designated as a day of rest as in the case of Sunday. There is too much obsession with commercialization in this country now and it isn't really doing people any good, really. People were happier in the 60s and 70s when Sunday really was 'a day of rest' and no shops opened.

I don't disagree with the first point, but I'd take issue with the second. Growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, my recollection of the typical Sunday was that it would involve waking up at normal weekday time (because a child's body clock doesn't reset for one day a week!) but having to be quiet until my parents were awake, so say three hours. Nothing on TV between cartoons first thing in the morning and possibly a film or, from the early 1980s onwards, football after lunch. I just remember a lot of boredom and arguments because of the combination of tired parents, energetic child and very little to do, particularly when the weather was poor- even the local museums would only be open from, say, 1-5.

Now that I work a 9-5 job myself, I sleep in until 8 or so (any later and I can't sleep at night) and I wouldn't choose to do my main shopping on a Sunday, but I can't help feeling that if people were that happy then there wouldn't have been the critical mass for relaxation of the laws.

 

[30907]

I can't help feeling that if people were that happy then there wouldn't have been the critical mass for relaxation of the laws.

ISTR that it was big retailers who were pushing this rather than a groundswell of public opinion.

I'm with Philip on this one (as a Vicar you may think I am biased, but Sunday amateur sport is my main competitor not retail!) but the railway has to respond to changing patterns of travel on all days (yes, even on Boxing Day).

 

[dk1]

There is also the issue of traincrew rostering for Sunday turns as you have less flexibility. Those going from lates the previous week to early turn the next will have a limited if not no availability at all.

 

[Busaholic]

First train from Penzance 05.05 weekdays, 08.07 Sundays.