When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[yorksrob]

it isnt meant to be though! The only section that could be considered such is Grosmont to Whitby. That is £14

Which is why the town's true rail link shouldn't be neglected.

 

[yorksrob]

In a way similar to the Conwy Valley perhaps? A poor timetable and run-down rolling stock mean it isn't even slightly attractive?

Mind you, I can't imagine a Conwy Valley train full and standing!

I've not managed the Conwy valley line yet, but a single 153 certainly wouldn't cut it to Whitby.

 

[philthetube]

They need to get the easy wins under their belt, such as strengthening Saturday services, then they should start comsidering the longer term improvements.

But who's gonna pay for all that?
The Esk Valley line leaks money, so I doubt that Northern or the DfT have the appetite for more services

Strengthening Saturday services would cost little and increase revenue

 

[ainsworth74]

What the Esk Valley does is the bread and butter business of getting daytrippers in. Seeing a full and standing sprinter empty out its passengers at Whitby really brings home just how important the line is.

Anyhow, with passing places at Battetsby and Glaisdale and two platforms at Whitby, there shouldn't be reason why the NYMR and additional Esk vally services can't be accommodated. If anything, I've heard it said from those in the know that there's more of a capacity issue at the Middlesborough end.

I can well believe that there is a capacity crunch at Middlesbrough though, in theory, an extra platform should appear over the next few years depending on how the Council's and Combined Authorities plans pan out for that. However I wouldn't dismiss the issues between Grosmont and Whitby itself. It's single track all the way from Grosmont to Whitby and the block runs from Glaisdale to Whitby! So, for example, a Northern unit sat at Glaisdale going to Whitby cannot leave until the NYMR train is either shut in the platform at Whitby or returns to the NYMR at Grosmont. Or, alternatively, for example, an NYMR train cannot leave Grosmont until a Northern unit reaches Glaisdale or arrives in Whitby. I wouldn't dismiss that sort of constraint on capacity!

 

[Greybeard33]

Network Rail is opposing Northern's track access application for an additional service from Middlesbrough to Whitby, starting December.

The application can be downloaded from Network Rail's sale of access rights webpage, under "Current Track Access Consultations - Arriva Rail North - 19th SA"

From the "Form P":

*Unsupported application made under Section 22A of the Railways Act 1993*
Date of commencement: Principal Change Date (PCD) 2019
End date: Principal Change Date (PCD) 2025
The 19th Supplemental Agreement (SA) seeks to:
Amend Tables 2.1 of Schedule 5 to increase the quantum of Middlesbrough – Whitby services by one passenger train slot per day (SX & SO)
Change to Quantum (tables 2.1) as follows:
ED01 – Tyne, Tees and Wear
Additional quantum as follows:
SX and SO
• 1 additional passenger train slot per day Middlesbrough – Whitby

We have been unable to reach a supported position with Network Rail having attended SOAR on 28th May. Network Rail do not believe that the service which ARN have bid for can be accommodated within the December 2019 timetable due to falling foul of Section 4 times and signal box opening hours.

ARN’s stance is that the application is for quantum only access rights and that Network Rail should not necessarily reject an access rights application on the basis of timetable validation as this is covered by a separate process as per the Network Code which is currently still ongoing. We are also in discussions with Network Rail LNE route to consider options to be able to deliver this service such as amendments to Section 4 times, stabling etc…

We therefore wish to submit our application for the 1 additional train slot on an unsupported basis in order to give industry and ORR sufficient time to review prior to the timetable offer coming back. As work with the route is ongoing this application will hopefully move to a supported position in the coming months.

The additional Middlesbrough-Whitby service for which ARN have bid is a key service specified within the current franchise. This service has strong stakeholder support and will provide a much-desired service to the region.

The additional service in the opposite direction, Whitby to Middlesbrough, is agreed and included in Northern's 18th SA application.

 

[yorksrob]

Strengthening Saturday services would cost little and increase revenue

I agree 100%.

I can well believe that there is a capacity crunch at Middlesbrough though, in theory, an extra platform should appear over the next few years depending on how the Council's and Combined Authorities plans pan out for that. However I wouldn't dismiss the issues between Grosmont and Whitby itself. It's single track all the way from Grosmont to Whitby and the block runs from Glaisdale to Whitby! So, for example, a Northern unit sat at Glaisdale going to Whitby cannot leave until the NYMR train is either shut in the platform at Whitby or returns to the NYMR at Grosmont. Or, alternatively, for example, an NYMR train cannot leave Grosmont until a Northern unit reaches Glaisdale or arrives in Whitby. I wouldn't dismiss that sort of constraint on capacity!

I'm not sure I agree. It's less than half an hour between Whitby and Grosmont, and its just a question of flighting the trains in the same direction.

Time the NYMR to get in first then lock it in when the Northern is getting to Grosmont.

Network Rail is opposing Northern's track access application for an additional service from Middlesbrough to Whitby, starting December.

The application can be downloaded from Network Rail's sale of access rights webpage, under "Current Track Access Consultations - Arriva Rail North - 19th SA"

From the "Form P":

The additional service in the opposite direction, Whitby to Middlesbrough, is agreed and included in Northern's 18th SA application.

And to think the new head honcho is saying how NR should be more responsive to passengers needs. From what I see, it seems to be opposing things left, right and centre, even at times and places where there isn't the competition for paths.

 

[ainsworth74]

Time the NYMR to get in first then lock it in when the Northern is getting to Grosmont.

Northern can't leave Glaisdale until the NYMR reach Whitby. The block is Glaisdale - Whitby and you can only have one train at a time in block.

 

[yorksrob]

Northern can't leave Glaisdale until the NYMR reach Whitby. The block is Glaisdale - Whitby and you can only have one train at a time in block.

Indeed, but given it only takes half an hour between the two, you don't need anything like the three hour gap between Northern trains to fit in steam services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed, but given it only takes half an hour between the two, you don't need anything like the three hour gap between Northern trains to fit in steam services.

Oh yeah sure, I'm not saying it precludes an increased service (I would argue for a two hourly service) but it certainly is a factor that has to be considered and will act as constraint to capacity.

 

[bramling]

Indeed, but given it only takes half an hour between the two, you don't need anything like the three hour gap between Northern trains to fit in steam services.

With the constrained nature of the infrastructure on the route, there could be scope for some pretty nasty knock-on delays if things go off book, particularly if the Northern service runs further afield than simply a shuttle to and from Middlesbrough. Presumably there's also the constraint that at least two trips need to be timed to suit the schools traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh yeah sure, I'm not saying it precludes an increased service (I would argue for a two hourly service) but it certainly is a factor that has to be considered and will act as constraint to capacity.

I think two hourly clockface is what should be aimed for on a line like this. With dedicated, branded stock (230s would be perfect) designed for branch lines with good luggage space for holidaymakers and space for lots of bikes, stations done up to look a bit retro (see the Cornish branches) and a good publicity campaign you could I reckon increase ridership significantly.

It'll still lose money, but that's a different argument.

 

[DarloRich]

And to think the new head honcho is saying how NR should be more responsive to passengers needs. From what I see, it seems to be opposing things left, right and centre, even at times and places where there isn't the competition for paths.

that doesn't mean simply give passengers everything they ask for, instantly, everytime! The key point to me in that linked document is: Signal Box opening hours

That can be fixed but not quickly.

 

[DarloRich]

With the constrained nature of the infrastructure on the route, there could be scope for some pretty nasty knock-on delays if things go off book, particularly if the Northern service runs further afield than simply a shuttle to and from Middlesbrough. Presumably there's also the constraint that at least two trips need to be timed to suit the schools traffic.

i think it can be done but the risk has to be looked at carefully with, perhaps, a mitigation that there is not extended working beyond Middlesbrough to say Darlington or Newcastle.

The problem is when it goes wrong there will be a complete service shutdown.

 

[quantinghome]

I had a similar experience recently on a Saturday using the Settle-Carlisle line. A 2-car train from Leeds full and standing by Skipton and getting on for being crush-loaded by Settle. I suspect S&C, the Whitby line and all other northern branch lines are beset by the same issue, which is that Northern's management have bigger fish to fry.

Northern Rail is the second largest franchise in the country, covering a region of some 15 million people. The geographical area is large, but the bulk of the population is concentrated on the Liverpool-Hull / M62 / Rugby League corridor. Northern's main objectives are to provide inter-regional and commuter rail services in and between the major centres of population. They have also committed to wide-ranging improvements to these services. Given the difficulties they have encountered achieving their many commitments, it comes as no surprise that rural branch lines are not receiving much attention. This is likely to continue for some time.

 

[Clip]

There are cranks and tourists making the journey from further afield, but the line seems to be very popular with ordinary people and families from Middlesborough and the North East going for a day out. I would class these as local users.

You keep repeating this but the total passenger numbers are not really that high at all per service - it averages 95 per train and im guessing that that figure is inflated due to tourism in the summer - the reality is probably far far less no matter how much you say that theyre always rammed.

Whilst I dont doubt an improvement on a summer saturday would be welcome you seem to be making false statements about just how busy the branch line is to try and convince yourself that it needs investment.

 

[Marton]

Esk Valley is supposed to be 158 only from December. Some devices are already. Much better ride. The refurbished one I was on last week was like a new world.

Also Northern have now applied for the early train into Middlesbrough. It’s in a different thread on here.

I just don’t know how to link them.

 

[30907]

Network Rail is opposing Northern's track access application for an additional service from Middlesbrough to Whitby, starting December.

The application can be downloaded from Network Rail's sale of access rights webpage, under "Current Track Access Consultations - Arriva Rail North - 19th SA"

From the "Form P":

The additional service in the opposite direction, Whitby to Middlesbrough, is agreed and included in Northern's 18th SA application.

Intriguing thought of the 156 stabling overnight at Grosmont or Whitby....

 

[Killingworth]

You keep repeating this but the total passenger numbers are not really that high at all per service - it averages 95 per train and im guessing that that figure is inflated due to tourism in the summer - the reality is probably far far less no matter how much you say that theyre always rammed.

It's a fact of life that if I travel on rammed trains on a route I'll get the impression it's always like that, as will all the many others on that train. I suspect the very few on the almost empty trains that make up the average will form a different impression, but they're on more services. No doubt crews could tell a more balanced story.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh yeah sure, I'm not saying it precludes an increased service (I would argue for a two hourly service) but it certainly is a factor that has to be considered and will act as constraint to capacity.

Well, I think a standard two hourly service would be an improvement on the line. I think it's probably the bare minimum to have a genuinely useful service.

With the constrained nature of the infrastructure on the route, there could be scope for some pretty nasty knock-on delays if things go off book, particularly if the Northern service runs further afield than simply a shuttle to and from Middlesbrough. Presumably there's also the constraint that at least two trips need to be timed to suit the schools traffic.

To an extent that is a fact of life with single track railways. Nevertheless, even if you stepped up the Esk valley service to two-hourly and included the NYMR services, the section probably still wouldn't be as busy as many single track routes with hourly services.

that doesn't mean simply give passengers everything they ask for, instantly, everytime! The key point to me in that linked document is: Signal Box opening hours

That can be fixed but not quickly.

I'm possibly biased, given the situation with Saturday evening Hallam services.

You keep repeating this but the total passenger numbers are not really that high at all per service - it averages 95 per train and im guessing that that figure is inflated due to tourism in the summer - the reality is probably far far less no matter how much you say that theyre always rammed.

Whilst I dont doubt an improvement on a summer saturday would be welcome you seem to be making false statements about just how busy the branch line is to try and convince yourself that it needs investment.

To somewhere like Whitby you will get a lot of seasonal and weekend traffic. When I mentioned that Saturday was full and standing, even for a day with patchy weather, an independant traveller corroborated my observations on this thread.

 

[Starmill]

It's a fact of life that if I travel on rammed trains on a route I'll get the impression it's always like that, as will all the many others on that train. I suspect the very few on the almost empty trains that make up the average will form a different impression, but they're on more services. No doubt crews could tell a more balanced story.

By definition, one is more likely to be travelling on busier trains. That's what makes them busier trains!

 

[yorksrob]

@Clip did say that the route averaged 95 per train. Even with the Saturday peaks, that doesn't suggest to me that many will be almost empty.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Pleasant as it is, the NYMR has become ridiculously expensive. Last year it was £29 return for an adult, last week £31. No railcard discounts. That’s £62 for a couple. We decided against it just on price. They should be wary of pricing themselves out of ordinary people’s reach.

What has happened to through ticketing to the NYMR? No fares are currently listed on brfares.com. It was in palce a couple of years back and the fares were quite reasonable.

Preserved railway through ticketing

 

[30907]

Well, I think a standard two hourly service would be an improvement on the line. I think it's probably the bare minimum to have a genuinely useful service.
.... Nevertheless, even if you stepped up the Esk valley service to two-hourly and included the NYMR services, the section probably still wouldn't be as busy as many single track routes with hourly services.

Glaisdale to Whitby would be at capacity on that basis, and you would have challenging timetabling:
1. give each operator roughly an hour turnround in Whitby, which works for Glaisdale but then needs the journey to Middlesborough to be cut to under an hour (or you cross at Nunthorpe but add 15 minutes to the journey which is slow enough already); meanwhile the NYMR has to sit at Grosmont for 15 minutes as well to fit with their loops at Goathland and Levisham.
Of course is the Battersby Bypass line existed....
2. you give each operator 30 minutes at Whitby, which is ideal for the NYMR passengers but not for the Esk Valley. Now if the loop at Commondale was still there it would almost be doable...

I agree with you in principle, and don't like being defeatist, but can't see where the funding is coming from for the engineering work to make it possible.

 

[Starmill]

Even with an unlimited number of DMUs, it actually possible to fit a 2 hourly service between Middlesbrough and Whitby as well as NYMR services on the current passing places? The trains would need to meet at Grosmont in an appropriate slot, given the NYMR is also single track with only two passing loops.

All of the loops require all trains to come to a stand too, don't they? Even an hourly service can be supported on single track routes with dynamic passing loops, or double track sections of 3 miles or so, but one member has already described amendments to infrastructure as 'pie in the sky'.

In Northern Ireland, an hourly service operates on an all single track route, with passing loops, but this has resulted in some journey times being extended because of the need to stop and wait in more loops.

I don't know what track access arrangement NYMR have with Network Rail, but extending their journey times to Whitby might place their operation at a commercial disadvantage. Extending the Middlesbrough - Whitby journey time would make the service even more unattractive than it is currently.

 

[Starmill]

Strengthening Saturday services would cost little and increase revenue

Everyone wants Saturday strengthening on their line though, don't they? What about Saturday day-trippers on the diesel routes into Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield or Manchester? What about people day-tripping to the Yorkshire Coast stations, Blackpool, Saltburn or Windermere? Don't they all want adequate capacity on their DMUs on packed summer Saturdays? I would say that all of those places by definition will come higher up the priority list than Whitby does. But just because one particular person wants to get the train to Whitby, here we are having a 5 page discussion about this one branch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Northern Ireland, an hourly service operates on an all single track route, with passing loops, but this has resulted in some journey times being extended because of the need to stop and wait in more loops.

I can't imagine anyone complaining too much about that if it resulted in an upgrade from the pathetic 4tpd it has presently.

 

[lyndhurst25]

From the Sirius Minerals Potash Mine website:
"As part of our pledge to increase and support tourism in the area, we will provide up to £6.8 million to increase the provision of train services on the Esk Valley line between Whitby and Middlesbrough, which will double to four services each day, creating more opportunities for people to travel to the area."
(I assume that they actually mean "double the" rather than "double to")

And in an update from May 2019:
"work is on track to increase rail services between Whitby and Middlesbrough."

http://siriusminerals.com/latest-ne...s-minerals-local-contributions-hit-5-million/

 

[Bletchleyite]

There already *are* 4 services per day?

 

[Darandio]

They will say anything if it means they secure the billions they are after in backing.

 

[Greybeard33]

What has happened to through ticketing to the NYMR? No fares are currently listed on brfares.com. It was in palce a couple of years back and the fares were quite reasonable.

Preserved railway through ticketing

The NYMR also no longer offers concessionary fares for pensioners. Whereas the Transdev 840 Coastliner Whitby - Pickering bus is free with an ENCTS pass, is quicker than the train, has wifi and USB sockets and provides panoramic views over the moors from the upper deck. No contest IMHO!

I trust Network Rail track access charges fully cover the cost of NYMR trains using its metals between Grosmont and Whitby?