When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[Darandio]

It's 156, because they can't stand the school children standing up all the way.

It isn't always a 156, not by any stretch.

 

[yorksrob]

It isn't always a 156, not by any stretch.

They have a 156 going backwards and forwards all day.

 

[Darandio]

They have a 156 going backwards and forwards all day.

Indeed, apart from when it's replaced with a 142. Granted, the four times for me were weekends.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, apart from when it's replaced with a 142. Granted, the four times for me were weekends.

Which would make the service even worse than it usually is !

 

[darloscott]

The X93 bus is indeed the most popular way to get to Whitby - for most people the train just isn’t competitive on this journey with only one realistic choice of journey each way and what happens if you can’t get on the last return (about 1900 so unlikely but...)?
The buses run every hour during the day but upto every 30 minutes at peak flow times (and they throw more buses at it in the holidays to make it every 20!).
Until the rail service is improved then this will remain the case, which is probably a good thing given they can’t cope with what they carry now. It’s nearly always a 156 on the Whitby run and they do strengthen it with a 142 when possible but of course it competes with every other line in Northern’s network for extra capacity. It really needs the investment to allow a better frequency which would open up more opportunities to travel.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, apart from when it's replaced with a 142. Granted, the four times for me were weekends.

Yes, alright, I had a 142 once, when the strikes were on, and the other time when they'd added it to the 156 because it was too crowded (yes, they did it once).

Were your 142 trips on the line on anything other than strike days ?

 

[Darandio]

Yes, alright, I had a 142 once, when the strikes were on, and the other time when they'd added it to the 156 because it was too crowded (yes, they did it once).

Were your 142 trips on the line on anything other than strike days ?

None on strike days, the only one before the strikes were suspended was a Sunday in January.

 

[bramling]

Oh please, the route carries a decent year round patronage - it's not some holiday line that closes down in winter.

#DarloRich, you make use of a branchline with non-mainline passenger numbers (Bedford-Bletchley). Do you think that this line should suffice with five trains a day each way, or have you just 'gone native' down there ?

When I did Middlesbrough to Whitby a couple of years ago (middle of weekday in May) the 156 was virtually empty. Only about four in the carriage both from and to Whitby, with just a few more mainly between Great Ayton and Middlesbrough.

I’d say there’s a case for longer trains for sure to cater for busy times, and perhaps a better token arrangement for the Glaisdale to Whitby section, but apart from that I’d think it hard to justify any further investment.

 

[yorksrob]

None on strike days, the only one before the strikes were suspended was a Sunday in January.

Well, it was extremely rare when I was on it.

 

[geoffk]

There are two passing places on the mainline at Grosmont and Battersby on the main line. There is also the additional platform at Whitby. It cannot, surely, be impossible to operate additional main line services on that branch.

There's a passing loop at Glaisdale, isn't there?

 

[geoffk]

It's 156, because they can't stand the school children standing up all the way.

"All the way" to Sleights and Ruswarp?

 

[yorksrob]

There's a passing loop at Glaisdale, isn't there?

"All the way" to Sleights and Ruswarp?

Indeed, the loop's still there, although criminally underused.

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm aware before the NYMR started taking up paths between Grosmont and Whitby there was sufficient capacity to run a roughly two hourly service between Middlesbrough and Whitby. So the infrastructure is already capable of running a more frequent service. If the NYMR weren't there....

 

[70014IronDuke]

As far as I'm aware before the NYMR started taking up paths between Grosmont and Whitby there was sufficient capacity to run a roughly two hourly service between Middlesbrough and Whitby. So the infrastructure is already capable of running a more frequent service. If the NYMR weren't there....

Maybe. But to run a 'genuinely' useful service from Whitby, ie one that would attract commuters into Boro, I'd argue you need an ex-Whitby to Middlesboro arrival at c 08.30. You just can't get that with the current track layout - because it needs a loop reinstating (?) at Castleton Moor. Without that, you have to pass at Battersby (leading to very early arrival in Boro) or Glaisdale - which results in a post 09.00 arrival at Boro.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, is it ?

Are people forced to use it, because it is very long for a bus service.

I've used it a couple of times due to my connection not being met, and felt a bit queasy (someone else definitely vommed on one occasion, because I could smell it).
Having used the bus option a couple of times, I suspect that its popularity is unduly flattered by the poor rail service.

I'd say far more popular. Partly because its far more frequent, and you can usually get a seat.

What do you mean, very long for a bus service - it's only just over 1 hour from Whitby to Middlesbrough. I know it comes in from Scarborough but that just makes it easier for people to have a through journey. How many are going to get off in Whitby for a train service that will take them even longer to reach their destination ?

 

[trainophile]

We were on the 1020 from MBR on Weds this week, returned yesterday on the 0845. Plenty of room on both occasions, we had a table to ourselves and nobody needed to ask us to share it as there were lots of empty seats.

The moral seems to be to travel on week days if possible. And I don't fancy over an hour on the bus, at least the trains have toilets!

 

[yorksrob]

I'd say far more popular. Partly because its far more frequent, and you can usually get a seat.

What do you mean, very long for a bus service - it's only just over 1 hour from Whitby to Middlesbrough. I know it comes in from Scarborough but that just makes it easier for people to have a through journey. How many are going to get off in Whitby for a train service that will take them even longer to reach their destination ?

I mean, for sitting on a bus from Middlesborough to Whitby, it felt like a very long, and not particularly comfortable time.

 

[Iskra]

I mean, for sitting on a bus from Middlesborough to Whitby, it felt like a very long, and not particularly comfortable time.

Don’t worry, pacers are being withdrawn soon

 

[The Lad]

Not now a 156 shuttle, 158 to Carlisle in the afternoons!

 

[CHAPS2034]

I have just come back from a couple of days pub researching in Whitby

When looking at my travel plans, I was amazed at the poor service on the line and the timings, so I travelled over from Manchester to Scarborough on TPE and used the X93 bus to Whitby. (I do have an ECTS bus pass)

I missed a bus at Scarborough by seconds due to a late running TPE - whoever would have thought that....The next bus 30 mins later pitched up well in time for a RT departure; it was a comfortable and clean double decker as most on this service are and the journey time of around 1 hour to Whitby was only marred by a sea fret severely limiting visibility.The return on this route (when I could see something) was also to time on a clean and comfortable bus which was reasonably well populated by people making intermediate journeys as well as some going the full distance.

My other options to get to Whitby from Manchester in a reasonable time were to go to Middlesborough and then use either the X93 (hourly on this bit of route taking about an hour) or the X4 via the coast - every 30 mins but taking 2 hours. I could have also gone to York and thence by bus to Pickering to pick up a NYM train which would have also taken forever and cost some too.

I have yet to travel on the Esk Valley line but with time limited, I wasn't prepared to spend so much time hanging about waiting for a train or missing a connection and having to wait several hours for another service.

Whitby is now quite a busy place all year round with events locals told me; it certainly deserves a better service but I'm afraid that the buses will continue to hoover up most of the public transport requirements of locals and tourists alike as there are multiple options.

 

[Ianno87]

Every weekend for starters. And this is with a paltry service which most people with an alternative wouldn't bother with.

I have caught the weekday services with schoolchildren, and they have been extremely busy as well (given that schoolchildren are paying passengers like the rest of us).

A lot of this is pie in the sky. Just either put on a decent frequency, or put enough carriages on the trains we have. That would be a good enough start.

Waiting for high cost capital expenditure is a recipe for nothing ever happenning.

Going to hazard a guess that if there was a commercial case for more/longer trains on busy days without infrastructure investment, Northern would be doing it.

 

[yorksrob]

I have just come back from a couple of days pub researching in Whitby

When looking at my travel plans, I was amazed at the poor service on the line and the timings, so I travelled over from Manchester to Scarborough on TPE and used the X93 bus to Whitby. (I do have an ECTS bus pass)

I missed a bus at Scarborough by seconds due to a late running TPE - whoever would have thought that....The next bus 30 mins later pitched up well in time for a RT departure; it was a comfortable and clean double decker as most on this service are and the journey time of around 1 hour to Whitby was only marred by a sea fret severely limiting visibility.The return on this route (when I could see something) was also to time on a clean and comfortable bus which was reasonably well populated by people making intermediate journeys as well as some going the full distance.

My other options to get to Whitby from Manchester in a reasonable time were to go to Middlesborough and then use either the X93 (hourly on this bit of route taking about an hour) or the X4 via the coast - every 30 mins but taking 2 hours. I could have also gone to York and thence by bus to Pickering to pick up a NYM train which would have also taken forever and cost some too.

I have yet to travel on the Esk Valley line but with time limited, I wasn't prepared to spend so much time hanging about waiting for a train or missing a connection and having to wait several hours for another service.

Whitby is now quite a busy place all year round with events locals told me; it certainly deserves a better service but I'm afraid that the buses will continue to hoover up most of the public transport requirements of locals and tourists alike as there are multiple options.

Well, indeed untill they provide a decent interval rail service.

 

[jayah]

When I did Middlesbrough to Whitby a couple of years ago (middle of weekday in May) the 156 was virtually empty. Only about four in the carriage both from and to Whitby, with just a few more mainly between Great Ayton and Middlesbrough.

I’d say there’s a case for longer trains for sure to cater for busy times, and perhaps a better token arrangement for the Glaisdale to Whitby section, but apart from that I’d think it hard to justify any further investment.

The operation costs would far lower if it the infrastructure wasn't so archaic and the journey so slow. It is a true distress purchase, totally outclassed by a public bus! The fact a Day Return is £9 with a third off with the local railcard says it all. The only market is subsidised school children, tourists and anyone of working age who can't afford the bus.

We were on the 1020 from MBR on Weds this week, returned yesterday on the 0845. Plenty of room on both occasions, we had a table to ourselves and nobody needed to ask us to share it as there were lots of empty seats.

The moral seems to be to travel on week days if possible. And I don't fancy over an hour on the bus, at least the trains have toilets!

There are plenty of bus journeys in London through Zones 1/2 not far off an hour.

If it was that much of a turd, the trains wouldn't be full and standing. Something I have seen on many, many occasions.

I'm all for a route modernisation, but I'm not prepared to wait for someone to pay for a Battersby avoiding line to get an improvement.

There are £bn being spent buying brand new stock and scrapping Class 321s. It's not money that is short but sensible priorities.

Left behind on connectivity means being left behind economically.

 

[Glenn1969]

Whitby's annual footfall of around 140k does suggest more than a 4 a day service is justified. However the minimal passenger figures of some of the other stations suggests otherwise. Should thought be given to a limited stop service from Middlesbrough to Whitby in at least one peak (maybe morning to Middlesbrough and Evening to Whitby??

 

[yorksrob]

There are £bn being spent buying brand new stock and scrapping Class 321s. It's not money that is short but sensible priorities.

Left behind on connectivity means being left behind economically.

How is scrapping 321's supposed to improve the Whitby branch ?

 

[CHAPS2034]

How is scrapping 321's supposed to improve the Whitby branch ?

Perhaps you could convert them to bi-mode. Oh hang on...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Welcome to the novel concept (in the UK) of total route modernisation. Putting a decent frequency on a 35 mile / 90mins trip is frankly turd polishing.

If that was the case, nobody would ever use Merseyrail - it takes 35 minutes (a slowdown of about 7 minutes since Merseyrail opened) from Ormskirk to Liverpool Central, a distance of about 12 miles or thereabouts.

But it is frequent, generally fairly reliable, reasonably priced and well connected, so it is well used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I did Middlesbrough to Whitby a couple of years ago (middle of weekday in May) the 156 was virtually empty. Only about four in the carriage both from and to Whitby, with just a few more mainly between Great Ayton and Middlesbrough.

I’d say there’s a case for longer trains for sure to cater for busy times, and perhaps a better token arrangement for the Glaisdale to Whitby section, but apart from that I’d think it hard to justify any further investment.

There could really do with being a son-of-RETB as a genuinely cheap method of operating branches like this safely on a remote basis. Could GSM-R provide an effective method of distributing the data?

No, not ERTMS.

As for rolling stock, get a couple of 3-car 230s built - ideal.

In the end, it's poorly used because the service is atrocious.

 

[modernrail]

The Middlesborough line is useless for anybody coming from the south or even west. It is still painfully slow for those coming from Middlesborough.

I tried out the NYMR and then a taxi to Malton and then TPE to York. It is not the quickest but would have worked quite well if it wasn't for the engine breaking down on the NYMR (ex-Southern obviously, couldn't get up the hill) and the TP running very late. I did think there might be something in it as a promoted tourist way into Whitby though. Maybe a through ticket from York and well timed shuttle bus Malton to Pickering. Summer only obviously.

It is a shame the express bus from Scarborough to Whitby takes twice as long as driving.

 

[tbtc]

Going to hazard a guess that if there was a commercial case for more/longer trains on busy days without infrastructure investment, Northern would be doing it.

Yup - if it was as profitable as some enthusiasts suggest then it seems strange that little effort is made... maybe because it's not profitable (as you say)

I have caught the weekday services with schoolchildren, and they have been extremely busy as well (given that schoolchildren are paying passengers like the rest of us).

Whitby's annual footfall of around 140k does suggest more than a 4 a day service is justified. However the minimal passenger figures of some of the other stations suggests otherwise. Should thought be given to a limited stop service from Middlesbrough to Whitby in at least one peak (maybe morning to Middlesbrough and Evening to Whitby??

It's marginal under two hundred departing passengers per day, i.e. just under fifty passengers per departure (I'm not including the fifth departure on Friday evenings). So enough for a single 153 to meet the average demand, with a few seats spare.

My understanding was that the school services were too busy for a single Pacer to cope with (hence the need for a 156)... correct me if I'm wrong?

So, if the school kids are too many for a 142 (which must mean around a hundred passengers on the 08:37 arrival/ 16:00 departure?) then that brings down the average numbers on the other three departures a little (probably from around the average capacity of a single decker bus to the average capacity of a minibus).

I know that any attempt to be realistic about current passenger numbers will attract the "ah, but if you ran lots more services then more people might use it" argument from Field Of Dreams - and this is true to an extent... but how high is it up the list of priorities?

In the north east of England you've got just one train per hour from Newcastle/ Sunderland down the coast to Hartlepool/ Middlesbrough.... you've got an electrified commuter route from Morpeth/ Cramlington into Newcastle with just an hourly 75mph DMU... its the one corner of the Northern franchise not getting new trains... plus any spare 156s you find are 156s that could be used on boring things like additional capacity on lines into Manchester/ Leeds etc... so whilst I can see the desire for an increased capacity on a scenic rural line, it's hard to ignore the Opportunity Cost.