West Malling train fire (02/02/2023)

[Kite159]

Could have been a lot worse, thankfully it wasn't. Props to the driver for dealing with what would have been a very stressful event, especially on DOO.

Would it have been DOO on that line? Pretty sure the services towards Maidstone all carry guards.

 

[JammyJames08]

Would it have been DOO on that line? Pretty sure the services towards Maidstone all carry guards.

DOO as far as Otford. Conductor the rest of the way.

 

[brad465]

DOO as far as Otford. Conductor the rest of the way.

I don't know if there's a technical term, but Bromley South, St Mary Cray and Maidstone East are intermediate calls with platform despatch staff (and Ashford of course at the end of the route), they wouldn't have been any help at West Malling though. The guards are also on the train throughout, they just don't assist despatch in the DOO section.

 

[JammyJames08]

Bromley South, St Mary Cray and Maidstone East are bat and flag.

 

[mr_moo]

I have on fairly good authority that the shoe gear was worn beyond limits causing arcing, plus there was a build up of dirt which the arcing then burned.

 

[SolomonSouth]

I have on fairly good authority that the shoe gear was worn beyond limits causing arcing, plus there was a build up of dirt which the arcing then burned.

Thank you very much for the insight!

 

[swt_passenger]

It happened at St. Pancras Int'l one time, I seem to recall. Snaking OHLE over the platform. At least that's what The Standard reported!

I know there’s a RAIB Report all about it, it definitely happened. Probably a more technical explanation than the Standard’s…

 

[zwk500]

I know there’s a RAIB Report all about it, it definitely happened. Probably a more technical explanation than the Standard’s…

Report 12/2010: Overhead line failure at St Pancras International

Overhead line failure at St Pancras International station, London, 23 September 2009.

www.gov.uk

This one?

 

[swt_passenger]

Report 12/2010: Overhead line failure at St Pancras International

Overhead line failure at St Pancras International station, London, 23 September 2009.

www.gov.uk

This one?

Yes thanks for finding it.

 

[LowLevel]

The unit recessed at Maidstone East due to dragging brakes, it continued to Ashford once that had been resolved.

 

[43066]

The unit recessed at Maidstone East due to dragging brakes, it continued to Ashford once that had been resolved.

Is that what’s recorded in the logs? I must say it’s hard to believe there was no electrical involvement given that video.

 

[LowLevel]

Is that what’s recorded in the logs? I must say it’s hard to believe there was no electrical involvement given that video.

Sorry - not been clear there. No comment on the original issue, that looks to be electrical.

There were various questions about why it was dumped at Maidstone East in an inconvenient location during it's subsequent move, and that was apparently due to dragging brakes.

 

[43066]

Sorry - not been clear there. No comment on the original issue, that looks to be electrical.

There were various questions about why it was dumped at Maidstone East in an inconvenient location during it's subsequent move, and that was apparently due to dragging brakes.

Perhaps damage from the fire meant they couldn’t get the brakes off on the affected bogie.

 

[Class 466]

That was at Malling. The train was then moved to East Maidstone and stabled in a through platform. The latter is what was being asked about.

It was meant to go straight to Ashford from West Malling but encountered a fault at Maidstone East. So putting it in the bay wouldn’t have worked and they didn’t plan for it to fail in platform …

 

[contrex]

and naturally the current required to move a train (for example a 444's traction power alone can draw up to ~2,000A @ 750V) is probably close to what an electrical fault that is not a direct short would be, especially when you think that the over current protection for a section will generally be sized for more than one train drawing power, you've basically got a fire that is being constantly fed with fuel.

This has always been a problem. See Barnes Bridge 1955. The substation attendant saw 5,000 amps on his ammeter, and manually pulled out the breaker which was set to trip at 5,700. Wreckage of timber-bodied 2-NOL set alight by arcing following collision with freight train after signaller's error.

 

[yorksrob]

It was meant to go straight to Ashford from West Malling but encountered a fault at Maidstone East. So putting it in the bay wouldn’t have worked and they didn’t plan for it to fail in platform …

Ah, that makes sense !

 

[bazzarati]

Signallers are told to avoid stopping a train at a station in the event of a fire, so there's an interesting decision there.

 

[Signal Head]

There's also Captain Bravery in the brown trousers who legged it off with a suitcase then got back on later to retrieve what seems to be a coat.

There is the possibility said trousers may not have been brown originally.

 

[najaB]

Signallers are told to avoid stopping a train at a station in the event of a fire, so there's an interesting decision there.

Surely that's if the station is on fire, no?

 

[brad465]

Signallers are told to avoid stopping a train at a station in the event of a fire, so there's an interesting decision there.

I suppose it depends on where and when the fire was discovered: signal sections are 3 aspect on that line, but with quite long distances between signals (and there is a signal very soon after P2 at West Malling), so the train may already have been in the signal block containing the station. If the train was also already slowing down for the station when the fire started, then there probably was nothing that could have been done to stop it before the station. Also, can a train on fire safely evacuate when not at a station, especially when 2 non-gangway units are together?

 

[zwk500]

Surely that's if the station is on fire, no?

I can imagine if the train bogies are on fire it being easier to fight the fire and inspect for damage afterwards if it isn't in a platform, although then the question of evacuating passengers comes into it. Given the short length of the unit and the overall situation getting the train into the platform to allow a normal door release and passengers to evacuate through all available doors was probably a sensible one.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

and naturally the current required to move a train (for example a 444's traction power alone can draw up to ~2,000A @ 750V) is probably close to what an electrical fault that is not a direct short would be, especially when you think that the over current protection for a section will generally be sized for more than one train drawing power, you've basically got a fire that is being constantly fed with fuel.

Breaker settings on double end fed sections min of 6kA maybe 4kA on single end fed Lymington Branch. The issue with 750V is the trip levels are so much closer to traction current levels so more load trippings experienced and original CBs were fitted with auto reclose twice but those controls were remove in the late 60's i believe. On 25kV the CBs are set around 600A but fault levels can be as high as 12kA so a lot more energy available at that voltage and could quickly melt OLE so protection has to be fast acting.

 

[najaB]

I can imagine if the train bogies are on fire it being easier to fight the fire and inspect for damage afterwards if it isn't in a platform, although then the question of evacuating passengers comes into it.

I'd like to think that evacuation takes priority over every other consideration. Trains can be repaired, stations can be rebuilt.

Imagine the outcry if a burning train carried on through a station and then people died as a result.

 

[zwk500]

I'd like to think that evacuation takes priority over every other consideration. Trains can be repaired, stations can be rebuilt.

As would I. Hence platforming the train was the right call in this situation.

Imagine the outcry if a burning train carried on through a station and then people died as a result.

Surely if you were stopping the train outside a station it'd be serious enough to stop immediately and not carry through a station unless travelling at speed.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Signallers are told to avoid stopping a train at a station in the event of a fire, so there's an interesting decision there.

How do you get people off the train, then?