West Malling train fire (02/02/2023)

[mr_moo]

That was at Malling. The train was then moved to East Maidstone and stabled in a through platform. The latter is what was being asked about.

Ah, my bad, sorry!

 

[yorksrob]

The time taken for the fire to be detected, the driver to react, contact the signaller to decide what to do, arrange for routes to be possibly set back to danger, wait for any approach controls to time out, then set the route into the bay instead, probably just wasn't available. Surely you just bring the train to a stop in whatever the first suitable place is and deal with the consequences later.

Indeed, I suspect, as you can see the driver on the phone, presumably to the signaller, in the video, this may be a very recently developed event, and the driver simply focussed on stopping the train at a suitable place, making announcements, and pressing the red GSM-R button, with follow up calls re what was happening and summoning the fire brigade being done after the doors were open to let the people off.

That's a fair point. It's a short distance from West Malling to Maidstone.

One would think you have an alert for criticism of our most holy Third Rail!

I have an alert for hysterical anti third rail BS

 

[westcoaster]

Wonder if it was debris on the track, shorting out after contact with the train.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I wonder if the very real dangers of this are taken into account by those who claim that the 3rd rail is not more dangerous than the OHLE.

Electrical fires can occur anywhere on the traction system there is lot of energy available whatever the voltage and of course lots of arcing makes them very videogenic. Designers, and historical hard learning, go to great lengths to manage the consequences should they arise and here this was demonstrated as the train moved under its own power later. Below is DB ICE train where a electrical fire destroyed part of the train oh and thats a 15kV overhead system.

 

[dgl]

and naturally the current required to move a train (for example a 444's traction power alone can draw up to ~2,000A @ 750V) is probably close to what an electrical fault that is not a direct short would be, especially when you think that the over current protection for a section will generally be sized for more than one train drawing power, you've basically got a fire that is being constantly fed with fuel.

 

[the sniper]

I wonder if the very real dangers of this are taken into account by those who claim that the 3rd rail is not more dangerous than the OHLE.

I'd be more worried standing on a platform as a passing train drags down the OHLE. Mind the flying pantograph...

 

[WizCastro197]

Wonder if it was debris on the track, shorting out after contact with the train.

If it there was debris on the track, wouldn’t the front of the train be more affected than the rear?

 

[zwk500]

If it there was debris on the track, wouldn’t the front of the train be more affected than the rear?

Depends what and where it was, it might have been to the side of the track and kicked up in the displaced air as the train passed.

 

[ComUtoR]

Depends what and where it was, it might have been to the side of the track and kicked up in the displaced air as the train passed.

Or something that was level with the shoe gear and not the rest of the train...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

and naturally the current required to move a train (for example a 444's traction power alone can draw up to ~2,000A @ 750V) is probably close to what an electrical fault that is not a direct short would be, especially when you think that the over current protection for a section will generally be sized for more than one train drawing power, you've basically got a fire that is being constantly fed with fuel.

This is a high current route for class 92's so breakers set for at least 8000 Amps and given their is a substation here they would have delivered that current for a few 100ms before tripping but its also possible for an arcing fault, rather than a hard short circuit, to not always trip which looks the case from the video until an emergency isolation was called for.

 

[westcoaster]

If it there was debris on the track, wouldn’t the front of the train be more affected than the rear?

Not necessarily, if the front knocked it onto the juice rail. And that's where it stopped.

 

[JammyJames08]

I drove the first train up from Ashford after the fire was out and the line reopened (around 1930)

Signaller at Maidstone appreciated it was dark but wanted the lines London end of West Malling examined, arriving there NR and Fire Brigade were still on site examining the platform and 4ft. The 6 car had just left the site and passed my train at East Malling.

With the conductor in the back looking also, we didn’t find anything untoward.

Having seen the videos I’m glad no one was hurt, at what must have a been frightening event.

It was a shame (although not overly surprising) to read the usual negative comments/abuse on twitter afterwards, some of which was quite nasty and unnecessary (and political)

Let’s hope fleet can find out what happened but it doesn’t look like an infrastructure problem.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely it's the same as with any train carriage that catches fire - moving to another carriage is the best advice until alighting is possible.

Certainly no cause for anti-third rail hysteria.

True, but in this case it was the third rail system that triggered the fire. Not a common event, but happens often enough. Meanwhile I’m not aware of any train fire triggered by an OLE event, at least not in this country in the recent past.

 

[Rich1974]

Had something like this a few years back at Redhill with a Class 165, a possible foil crisp wrapper decided to get wedged between the third rail and the sander hose on one of the bogies and the rubber hose caught fire.

 

[yorksrob]

True, but in this case it was the third rail system that triggered the fire. Not a common event, but happens often enough. Meanwhile I’m not aware of any train fire triggered by an OLE event, at least not in this country in the recent past.

I've seen various cases where engines have burst into flame, some on the 180's. I don't recall you exclaiming how dangerous they were.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've seen various cases where engines have burst into flame, some on the 180's. I don't recall you exclaiming how dangerous they were.

I wasn’t claiming that the third rail was dangerous either. I was simply pointing out that fires caused by the third rail system are more common than fires caused by the OLE system. And both are less common than fires caused by the coal system

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And both are less common than fires caused by the coal system

 

[dgl]

This is a high current route for class 92's so breakers set for at least 8000 Amps and given their is a substation here they would have delivered that current for a few 100ms before tripping but its also possible for an arcing fault, rather than a hard short circuit, to not always trip which looks the case from the video until an emergency isolation was called for.

Quite, if the fault is not drawing enough current or not showing an "expected" fault to trip the breakers then the power will stay on until it's manually shut off.

 

[Facing Back]

I'd be more worried standing on a platform as a passing train drags down the OHLE. Mind the flying pantograph...

Has that happened on platforms?

 

[Jimini]

Has that happened on platforms?

It happened at St. Pancras Int'l one time, I seem to recall. Snaking OHLE over the platform. At least that's what The Standard reported!

 

[brad465]

If it there was debris on the track, wouldn’t the front of the train be more affected than the rear?

I'm pretty sure that was the front of the train affected in this case.

 

[WizCastro197]

I'm pretty sure that was the front of the train affected in this case.

I meant the cab leading the train was the front in my post, but I see what you mean.

 

[yorksrob]

I wasn’t claiming that the third rail was dangerous either. I was simply pointing out that fires caused by the third rail system are more common than fires caused by the OLE system. And both are less common than fires caused by the coal system

I feel very cheerful and safe on all UK trains, however if there were to be an issue, I hope that I would be alighting calmly like the gent with his shopping

 

[brad465]

The video of the incident has made it onto the Instagram account of The Archbishop of Banterbury, specifically focusing on the guy walking casually with his bags.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Now this is a short circuit albeit overhead!

 

[SolomonSouth]

Yes - 466 028 was the one affected; I believe it was coupled to 465 903 which was undamaged?

According to a member in another thread, 465903 along with 465906 was dragged up to Doncaster on 28/01. Maybe it was a different unit?

 

[Evolution]

Could have been a lot worse, thankfully it wasn't. Props to the driver for dealing with what would have been a very stressful event, especially on DOO.

 

[stuving]

I wasn’t claiming that the third rail was dangerous either. I was simply pointing out that fires caused by the third rail system are more common than fires caused by the OLE system. And both are less common than fires caused by the coal system

Should that be restricted to 25kV AC OLE? Overcurrent protection of 1500V DC supplied by OLE is even more difficult than for 750V third rail. Fire may not always be the main result, but (in the RAIB's words) "the inability of the DC traction power supply protection to prevent a sustained fault current from melting the contact wire" can be even more scary for those on a platform. There are three recent examples, even in the one small area of 1500V DC in this country: Monkseaton (2010), South Gosforth (2013), and Walkergate (2014).

 

[theageofthetra]

Shoe gear burn up. A relatively common occurrence in 3rd rail land, impact damage/shorting from track debris or could be a build up of dirt on the shoe gear and beam which shorts across the shoe beam to vehicle body and sets fire to the beam and cables.

Many of these units haven't been washed in months.

 

[millemille]

Many of these units haven't been washed in months.

The shoe gear gets cleaned as part of maintenance on every exam, ever 49 days.