West Malling train fire (02/02/2023)

[brad465]

Probably heard something different like "failure of the electricity supply". Just in the last month or so there have been reports on Southeastern of shoe-gear faults / issues.

Have they all been on one or two classes, or is there no correlation?

What time yesterday afternoon / what service was this ?

This one:

Realtime Trains | 2N46 1525 London Victoria to West Malling | 02/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 2N46 1525 departure from London Victoria to West Malling on 02/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[dan4291]

Kudos to the driver for dealing with it so quickly, getting the doors open quick and no doubt doing an emergency call to get the traction current switched off. Must have been pretty terrifying for all involved (who aren't electrical engineers anyway!).

 

[Facing Back]

Brian May will be demanding all 3rd rail gets scrapped now

If Sir Dr Brian May demands it then I will rip them up myself!

 

[zwk500]

If Sir Dr Brian May demands it then I will rip them up myself!

You might want to chuck a few packs of AAA's on some networkers first though!

 

[yorksrob]

If Sir Dr Brian May demands it then I will rip them up myself!

Make sure you wear rubber soled shoes !!

 

[Deepgreen]

The only circumstances in which third rail is always unambiguously better that OLE are:

1. Very high winds (although both are equally likely to be disrupted by flying trampolines, etc)
2. Tunnels/bridges with extremely limited overhead clearance

3. When paying for its installation!

 

[Starmill]

3. Killing Badgers

Poor miscellaneous medium-sized ground mammals.

 

[najaB]

3. When paying for its installation!

Retrofitting to an existing railway, most likely yes. On a new railway, almost certainly not.

 

[Starmill]

Kudos to the driver for dealing with it so quickly, getting the doors open quick and no doubt doing an emergency call to get the traction current switched off. Must have been pretty terrifying for all involved (who aren't electrical engineers anyway!).

Certainly. It sounds like it would be rather scary for a typical member of the public, and the fumes no doubt smelled terrible.

I wonder if the unit is a lost cause.

 

[najaB]

I wonder if the unit is a lost cause.

Shouldn't be. From the video it doesn't appear that the bodyshell has been engulfed. Electrical fires often look worse than they actually are since the smoke can be conductive so you get lots of sparks and plasma balls.

Edit: It's unlikely the unit would have been moved by rail as soon as it was if it had significant damage.

 

[Horizon22]

Have they all been on one or two classes, or is there no correlation?

This one:

Realtime Trains | 2N46 1525 London Victoria to West Malling | 02/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 2N46 1525 departure from London Victoria to West Malling on 02/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There's multiple things related to "electricity" and some sort of failure, so not necessarily "correlated". https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php/Darwin:Late_Running_reason_codes_and_text

It depends what reason the TOC prefers to use in its communications:

• This train has been delayed by electrical supply problems
• This train has been delayed by a fault with the electric third rail
• This train has been delayed by failure of the electricity supply
• This train has been delayed by the electricity being switched off for safety reasons
• This train has been delayed by lightning damaging the electricity supply
• This train has been delayed by ice preventing trains getting electricity from the third rail

Overhead line stuff specifically:

• This train has been delayed by theft of overhead line electrification equipment
• This train has been delayed by damage to the overhead electric wires
• This train has been delayed by overhead wire problems
• This train has been delayed by an object being caught on the overhead electric wires

Alternatively the TOC might use "severe weather" or "high winds" without specifically talking about the electricity supply.

 

[mr_moo]

Thanks - great video.
It's alwasy fascinating to do people watching in these:
1) The driver, totally calm, on the phone, presumably requesting line blockage, isolation, and fire brigade attendance, door open in case he needs to get off and/or so he can see better.
2) The guy who gets off, probably with his suitcase being carried because it was in his hand anyway, doing a rapid assessment, deciding there was little danger to that area immediately, and getting back on to get his coat.
3) The guy with the bags, totally calm, presuambly more worried about the delay to his journey than anything else.
4) The people on the platfrom who run away but keep filming.
5) The passengers who dive off the train and run to the exit, clearly panicked/frightened.


Awesome. Must have been quite scary but also I wonder how safe/unsafe it actually was. There have been some instances where it's been a lot of noise and smoke but the interior remains pretty safe, and some where a fire has come into the passenger area.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Starmill]

Awesome. Must have been quite scary but also I wonder how safe/unsafe it actually was. There have been some instances where it's been a lot of noise and smoke but the interior remains pretty safe, and some where a fire has come into the passenger area.

If there were smoke in the passenger saloon then I would think that the danger would be quite real if the train were not at or able to proceed to the next station. However it may have been the case even then that everyone could have fit into the other carriage in that unit where smoke wasn't coming through, until they could have been evacuated. Fortunately it appears in this case that the next station wasn't far away and the train could make it there.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder why they put in the through platform at Maidstone E rather than the bay. Would have been less disruption.

 

[Starmill]

Actually, it does (buckle and displace, rather than sag). Happens frequently. In the cold too. Several times this year, quite disruptively, too.

Aren't all modern installs of overhead wires tensioned so that 'sagging' in very hot weather isn't anything like as serious an issue as it used to be? Indeed are there many sections left that aren't?

Obviously it was an issue fairly often during hot weather on the old Great Eastern system but that's nearly all been replaced now hasn't it? The other area where an older DC system was converted and inadequate or nonexistent tensioning is a problem is Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop.

 

[Bald Rick]

Aren't all modern installs of overhead wires tensioned so that 'sagging' in very hot weather isn't anything like as serious an issue as it used to be? Indeed are there many sections left that aren't?

Obviously it was an issue fairly often during hot weather on the old Great Eastern system but that's nearly all been replaced now hasn't it? The other area where an older DC system was converted and inadequate or nonexistent tensioning is a problem is Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop.

Yes, most of the fixed tension stuff has gone.

But even Auto tensioned stuff will be riskier in the heat, especially if it is hot and windy. Less of an issue with stuff wired since the 90s.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wonder why they put in the through platform at Maidstone E rather than the bay. Would have been less disruption.

Quickest way in and probably easier access to the underside for the fire brigade?

 

[yorksrob]

Quickest way in and probably easier access to the underside for the fire brigade?

Well, there's a ramp down to 2 and the bay. Maybe it had something in it.

 

[najaB]

Quickest way in and probably easier access to the underside for the fire brigade?

Doubt fire brigade access would be an issue, the fire would have been completely extinguished before moving it. If it was hauled then it would be easier to dump it at a through platform than a bay.

 

[brad465]

I wonder why they put in the through platform at Maidstone E rather than the bay. Would have been less disruption.

Doubt fire brigade access would be an issue, the fire would have been completely extinguished before moving it. If it was hauled then it would be easier to dump it at a through platform than a bay.

Not only quicker to get in, but quicker to get out. Apparently the stock went onward to Ashford later, and going into the Bay at MDE would have meant a reversing manoeuvre to head onward to Ashford. Perhaps they need to look more at converting P1 into a bi-directional through platform; currently it can receive trains from London, but they are not permitted to go east out of the station from that line.

Another thing they could have done, as has been done before (when a train had to wait in P2 due to a passenger taken ill), is run further services as normal, but they skip MDE by using the through line, and Maidstone passengers be allowed to carry onto Bearsted and double-back, and/or get alternative transport. If a unit was on fire though it may not have been safe to run another one right next to it.

 

[30907]

Perhaps they need to look more at converting P1 into a bi-directional through platform; currently it can receive trains from London, but they are not permitted to go east out of the station from that line.

...owing to the lack of a crossover

Another thing they could have done, as has been done before (when a train had to wait in P2 due to a passenger taken ill), is run further services as normal, but they skip MDE by using the through line

As happened, see post #9.

 

[yorksrob]

Not only quicker to get in, but quicker to get out. Apparently the stock went onward to Ashford later, and going into the Bay at MDE would have meant a reversing manoeuvre to head onward to Ashford. Perhaps they need to look more at converting P1 into a bi-directional through platform; currently it can receive trains from London, but they are not permitted to go east out of the station from that line.

Another thing they could have done, as has been done before (when a train had to wait in P2 due to a passenger taken ill), is run further services as normal, but they skip MDE by using the through line, and Maidstone passengers be allowed to carry onto Bearsted and double-back, and/or get alternative transport. If a unit was on fire though it may not have been safe to run another one right next to it.

I put it down to lack of class 33's to shunt it around

 

[QueensCurve]

Shoe gear burn up. A relatively common occurrence in 3rd rail land, impact damage/shorting from track debris or could be a build up of dirt on the shoe gear and beam which shorts across the shoe beam to vehicle body and sets fire to the beam and cables.

I wonder if the very real dangers of this are taken into account by those who claim that the 3rd rail is not more dangerous than the OHLE.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I know it's strike day but is the line safely open? I need to travel tomorrow morning

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder if the very real dangers of this are taken into account by those who claim that the 3rd rail is not more dangerous than the OHLE.

Surely it's the same as with any train carriage that catches fire - moving to another carriage is the best advice until alighting is possible.

Certainly no cause for anti-third rail hysteria.

 

[brad465]

...owing to the lack of a crossover

Yes to make it bi-directional would require a new crossover to be installed, and of course new signalling in the Maidstone East area.

As happened, see post #9.

Okay, thanks for the correction. They certainly were not doing this initially though as RTT appeared to show at least one service going via Paddock Wood.

 

[jnjkerbin]

I know it's strike day but is the line safely open? I need to travel tomorrow morning

Trains were running through by end of service on Thursday, so would assume you'd be fine tomorrow

 

[mr_moo]

I wonder why they put in the through platform at Maidstone E rather than the bay. Would have been less disruption.

The time taken for the fire to be detected, the driver to react, contact the signaller to decide what to do, arrange for routes to be possibly set back to danger, wait for any approach controls to time out, then set the route into the bay instead, probably just wasn't available. Surely you just bring the train to a stop in whatever the first suitable place is and deal with the consequences later.

Indeed, I suspect, as you can see the driver on the phone, presumably to the signaller, in the video, this may be a very recently developed event, and the driver simply focussed on stopping the train at a suitable place, making announcements, and pressing the red GSM-R button, with follow up calls re what was happening and summoning the fire brigade being done after the doors were open to let the people off.

 

[zwk500]

Surely it's the same as with any train carriage that catches fire - moving to another carriage is the best advice until alighting is possible.

Certainly no cause for anti-third rail hysteria.

One would think you have an alert for criticism of our most holy Third Rail!

 

[najaB]

Indeed, I suspect, as you can see the driver on the phone, presumably to the signaller, in the video, this may be a very recently developed event, and the driver simply focussed on stopping the train at a suitable place, making announcements, and pressing the red GSM-R button, with follow up calls re what was happening and summoning the fire brigade being done after the doors were open to let the people off.

That was at Malling. The train was then moved to East Maidstone and stabled in a through platform. The latter is what was being asked about.