West Coast Mk1s

[JonathanH]

Thanks. That is quite some rebuild to make the larger windows fit.

 

[fgwrich]

Well, that’s different. I wonder if it retains working air con or is now in effect a Mk2C. I’m also intrigued as to whether they are new window / window frames or salvaged.

 

[Railwaycat]

That's interesting.

I thought the reason for not fitting central locking to the mk1's could have been one of three:

1 - Yorkshireman, doesn't like being told what to do when he doesn't think there's a problem (he's a businessman, so unlikely).
2 - Won't spend the money if he can avoid it, and has done so far, but with what is seen as an inferior product.
3 - The cost is more than we realise, and he can see the day when mk1's are banned from the mainline.

If he's prepared to put that money and effort into rebuilding a mk2, then 3 looks a possibility (he needs to fit air brakes to 46115 though).

 

[Bill57p9]

3 - The cost is more than we realise, and he can see the day when mk1's are banned from the mainline.
If he's prepared to put that money and effort into rebuilding a mk2, then 3 looks a possibility (he needs to fit air brakes to 46115 though).

The original mk2s (sometimes referred to as Mk2z) were fitted with vacuum brakes. I don't know which variants WCRC have.

Mk1s do indeed also require an exemption around crash worthiness for main line use, and like non-CDL, this will at some point not be renewed.

There certainly are some challenges in fitting CDL to mk1s / vacuum braked stock, but they are not insurmountable as other operators have shown.

 

[37069]

The original mk2s (sometimes referred to as Mk2z) were fitted with vacuum brakes. I don't know which variants WCRC have.

Mk1s do indeed also require an exemption around crash worthiness for main line use, and like non-CDL, this will at some point not be renewed.

There certainly are some challenges in fitting CDL to mk1s / vacuum braked stock, but they are not insurmountable as other operators have shown.

WCR have ten vac-fitted Mk. 2Zs.

 

[Krokodil]

3 - The cost is more than we realise, and he can see the day when mk1's are banned from the mainline.

I rather doubt this one. Firstly because Tyseley have managed to fit a vacuum rake at presumably not too ridiculous a cost. Secondly because at the very least he could fit some of his fleet to keep the income flowing to pay for the rest - I bet that he's lost enough potential business already to pay for it. Thirdly because of your bullet number one, his reaction to being told that the derogation for Mk1s will be withdrawn would be exactly the same as his reaction to being told that the CDL derogation was being withdrawn - total denial and repeated appeals to ORR to reconsider.

 

[yorksrob]

Mk1s do indeed also require an exemption around crash worthiness for main line use, and like non-CDL, this will at some point not be renewed.

Maybe the ORR will have been reformed by then.

 

[31160]

Maybe the ORR will have been reformed by then.

What so will that make them magically safe then?

 

[Sun Chariot]

WCR have ten vac-fitted Mk. 2Zs.

Really? Which running numbers? I thought the original variant - vac only, Mk1 style end gangways, 4-piece window toplights - were withdrawn by the early 1980s (RTC Test Car 6 being the FK survivor longer than that).
Are you sure the WCR examples aren't Mk2a/b dual braked?

 

[LowLevel]

Really? Which running numbers? I thought the original variant - vac only, Mk1 style end gangways, 4-piece window toplights - were withdrawn by the early 1980s (RTC Test Car 6 being the FK survivor longer than that).
Are you sure the WCR examples aren't Mk2a/b dual braked?

The Mk2z stock I believe lasted on Scottish internal services until about 1993. Vintage Trains have various examples in traffic and in store.

 

[43096]

Really? Which running numbers? I thought the original variant - vac only, Mk1 style end gangways, 4-piece window toplights - were withdrawn by the early 1980s (RTC Test Car 6 being the FK survivor longer than that).
Are you sure the WCR examples aren't Mk2a/b dual braked?

Mark 2s are very difficult to dual brake and there are very few of them in existence (one?).

 

[sprinterguy]

Really? Which running numbers? I thought the original variant - vac only, Mk1 style end gangways, 4-piece window toplights - were withdrawn by the early 1980s (RTC Test Car 6 being the FK survivor longer than that).

5171, 5200/16/22/36/37/49. They also have 5229 and 5239 but the Platform 5 book lists those as having been converted to air braked.

 

[Sun Chariot]

5171, 5200/16/22/36/37/49. They also have 5229 and 5239 but the Platform 5 book lists those as having been converted to air braked.

That's really interesting. Thanks @sprinterguy @43096 @LowLevel So do those quoted carriages still have their 1963-64 window style and Mk1 gangways? Or have they been subsequently refitted with those from Mk2a/b/c?

I thought the original Mk2 SK series were 19xxx? Were your quoted SKs renumbered into 5xxx series later in life?
The 1963 FK prototype 13252 (preserved) was followed by 13xxx series FKs.

(apologies Mods - I know this thread is for WCR Mk1 not Mk2)

 

[JonathanH]

I thought the original Mk2 SK series were 19xxx? Were your quoted SKs renumbered into 5xxx series later in life?

They are TSOs and SOs built as such, not former compartment stock. The SOs are fitted out as first class now though. There is also a BSO (9392) and BSO(T) (9104) which has vacuum brakes.

 

[Sun Chariot]

They are TSOs and SOs built as such, not former compartment stock. The SOs are fitted out as first class now though. There is also a BSO (9392) which has vacuum brakes.

Thanks @JonathanH I'll consult my books, as I thought the original 1963-4 builds were SK only and the SO / TSO came subsequently.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks @JonathanH I'll consult my books, as I thought the original 1963-4 builds were SK only and the SO / TSO came subsequently.

The vacuum braked 2z TSOs (and smaller number of SOs) were built between 1965 and 67 (and had the later style of window ventilator from new, I believe, as they were built subsequent to the XP64 stock which introduced them), being followed on immediately by the air braked 2a TSOs from mid-1967.

 

[37069]

West Coast PV Mk. 2 fleet as follows -

Vacuum-braked
5171, 5200, 5216, 5222 - TSOs
5236, 5237, 5249 - SOs
9104 - BSO(T)
9392 - BSO
13340 - FK

Air-braked
5229, 5239 - SOs
5278, 5419, 5453, 5478, 5487 - TSOs
6528 - TSO(T)
9391, 9440 - BSOs
99680 - BFK
35518 - BSK (through vac pipe)

Underlined vehicles confirmed CDL-fitted.

 

[yorksrob]

What so will that make them magically safe then?

They're already safe.

 

[BlueLeanie]

They're already safe.

Until they aren't.

 

[Bill57p9]

"Safety" isn't a digital thing.
They are not getting any less safe (other than compared to average rolling stock which gets safer and safer). What has changed is UK risk tolerance on railways, which seems to be extraordinarily low.
Secondary door locks, CDL and crash worthiness modifications all make mk1s appreciably safer.

 

[yorksrob]

Until they aren't.

Well, obviously if they're not maintained properly they may become unsafe. But we're not talking about that scenario here.

 

[Scotty Dog]

West Coast PV Mk. 2 fleet as follows -

Vacuum-braked
5171, 5200, 5216, 5222 - TSOs
5236, 5237, 5249 - SOs
9104 - BSO(T)
9392 - BSO
13340 - FK

Air-braked
5229, 5239 - SOs
5278, 5419, 5453, 5478, 5487 - TSOs
6528 - TSO(T)
9391, 9440 - BSOs
99680 - BFK
35518 - BSK (through vac pipe)

Underlined vehicles confirmed CDL-fitted.

One of these underlined MK 2s is a donor for 3232 conversion. It is visible over the fence at Steamtown but number cut out to prevent seeing it's identity!
But visible marks of former CDL fitting.

Also visible cut in half is former Northern Belle coach Warwick.

 

[37069]

Could be 5478 then, as that hasn't been in traffic for several years. Looked like this last year - https://www.flickr.com/photos/155897033@N08/54030537598 seemingly with new windows then fitted.

 

[trebor79]

Mark 2s are very difficult to dual brake and there are very few of them in existence (one?).

I think there's far more than 1. The very minor steam railway I volunteered at 25 years ago had at least 3.

 

[LowLevel]

I think there's far more than 1. The very minor steam railway I volunteered at 25 years ago had at least 3.

Dual braked Mk2 coaches? Doubt it very much. There's one. Lots of Mk1s, only one Mk2.

 

[DJ_K666]

With all the modern safety requirements, it would be so far from a Mk1 that I doubt it would be worth it.

That said, I'd like to see it though.

Wouldn't that be a mk6? I don't see how you couldn't build a coach that looks like a mk1, but has modern safety and crashworthiness standards in order to go behind steam locos. It'd be pricey, certainly but not impossible.

 

[Russel]

Wouldn't that be a mk6? I don't see how you couldn't build a coach that looks like a mk1, but has modern safety and crashworthiness standards in order to go behind steam locos. It'd be pricey, certainly but not impossible.

With how safety regulations and standards have changed over the last 60 years, I'm not convinced it would have a significant resemblance to a Mk1.

 

[DJ_K666]

With how safety regulations and standards have changed over the last 60 years, I'm not convinced it would have a significant resemblance to a Mk1.

Possibly not. Although they might surprise us.

 

[43096]

With how safety regulations and standards have changed over the last 60 years, I'm not convinced it would have a significant resemblance to a Mk1.

Agreed. If anyone is expecting the horrible Mark 1 seats with, inevitably, collapsed bases in such a vehicle, the closest match you would get would be an ironing board type seat with the vertical back.

I’ll stick with IC70s in a smooth-riding Mark 3, thanks! Still the finest vehicles ever built.

 

[AY1975]

Best bet is to view recent YouTube videos. For example, here is one filmed yesterday at Fort William station which has close up views of all the coaches.

It appears to have a Mark 1 buffet on the front and a Mark 1 BCK on the rear. Ironically, since about I think the early to mid 2000s when the use of Mark 1s on charter trains was allowed, the coach at each end had to be a Mark 2 to comply with crashworthiness standards, but here we have a Mark 1 at either end of an otherwise all Mark 2 set.

I presume passengers are no longer allowed to travel in the BCK, though, despite WCRC advertising a compartment coach on the Jacobite on its website, and that they can go into the buffet to buy refreshments but not sit there?

Also, I believe that WCRC Mark 1s now have retention tank toilets whereas their Mark 2s do not, meaning that the Mark 1s are needed to provide toilet facilities. The DRS Mark 2s used for a time on Cumbrian Coast loco-hauled services did have one retention toilet per coach, though, with the other toilet being locked out of use, so it can be done on a Mark 2.

And neither is there any heat onboard.

Also, the Mark 2 aircons in that set do not appear to have been fitted with opening windows whereas at least some of the blue & grey ones used on the Jacobite for a time did have these.