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Were we lied to about Privitisation?

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tbtc

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Ivanhoe raises a good point though. It's a bit tenuous to claim the majority of the people wanted railway privatisation if the party proposing it didn't even get more votes than it's rival, let alone a majority

Since no party has won a majority of the vote for any Westminster election in my lifetime (IIRC) you could argue that nothing was "voted for".

However, rail privatisation was a clear part of the Tory Manifesto, they won the most seats, they implemented it. Similarly Labour said in 1997 they'd introduce the Minimum Wage, they won the most seats, they implemented it...

I do have a problem with things like the Coalition health reforms, which were in neither manifesto, so we didn't have a chance to vote upon, and I would argue they have no mandate for.

But, despite being no fan of the Tories, they clearly suggested in 1992 they'd privatise the railways, they clearly won a majority of seats and they clearly did it. I don't think anyone can cry "foul"
 
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yorksrob

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Since no party has won a majority of the vote for any Westminster election in my lifetime (IIRC) you could argue that nothing was "voted for".

However, rail privatisation was a clear part of the Tory Manifesto, they won the most seats, they implemented it. Similarly Labour said in 1997 they'd introduce the Minimum Wage, they won the most seats, they implemented it...

I do have a problem with things like the Coalition health reforms, which were in neither manifesto, so we didn't have a chance to vote upon, and I would argue they have no mandate for.

But, despite being no fan of the Tories, they clearly suggested in 1992 they'd privatise the railways, they clearly won a majority of seats and they clearly did it. I don't think anyone can cry "foul"

Neither would I. They won according to the rules of the time and put into effect what was in their manifesto. However, I still don't think you can say that the country wanted railway privatisation if a majority voted against it.
 

ainsworth74

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Since no party has won a majority of the vote for any Westminster election in my lifetime (IIRC) you could argue that nothing was "voted for".

History footnote:

The last time a government won the majority of votes in a Westminster election was 1931 when Stanley Bawldwin's Conservatives won 55% of the popular vote. There have been a few occasions that have come close (Eden's Conservatives won 49.7% in 1955 for instance) but not since 1931 has anyone gained a majority of votes.

End of footnote ;)
 

tbtc

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History footnote:

The last time a government won the majority of votes in a Westminster election was 1931 when Stanley Bawldwin's Conservatives won 55% of the popular vote. There have been a few occasions that have come close (Eden's Conservatives won 49.7% in 1955 for instance) but not since 1931 has anyone gained a majority of votes.

End of footnote ;)

:o

Very interesting; I knew it was a while ago, but I didn't realise just how long.

So, by that logic you could argue that the country didn't want the Welfare State/ NHS/ Privatisations if a majority voted against them.
 

yorksrob

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:o

Very interesting; I knew it was a while ago, but I didn't realise just how long.

So, by that logic you could argue that the country didn't want the Welfare State/ NHS/ Privatisations if a majority voted against them.

You possibly could.

Although to take the 1992 results (in terms of share of the vote) which were (from Wikipedia):

Con 41.9%
Lab 34.4%
Lib Dem 17.8%

If both the Conservatives and the Liberals had put railway privatisation in their manifesto's for example, you might have more of a case for saying that the country wanted it.

Similarly, If Labour and the Lib Dem's had both put the same policy in their manifesto's, you could argue that the country wanted it, even if it didn't get voted in.
 

RichW1

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Too many people don't vote but then again as much as I have always been pro-voting there is an argument creeping in against my point of view and it's this...

If 70-75% of our law is made in Brussels by people we have no idea about and whom are not accountable, why bother voting at all? It'll only be imposed on you and the UK government is only there to implement the law coming from Europe. It is a fair comment to now say...why bother voting? (if you use this as an argument). Our votes matter little and only apply to domestic only affairs which are precious few now.

The only saving grace is our economic policy that cannot be bent by a useless Eurozone model. Bad though we have it - at least we can take action fiscally without having to get agreement from 27 member states most of which are not using a dynamic economic model for competitiveness either now or in the future!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Labour decided railways were "not a priority" on gaining power in 1997, and would not in any case have abrogated the 25 franchises signed by the Tories - the City would have been incensed and that would have damaged the whole government programme.

Today, the current privatisation model is why the railways are not (at least yet) suffering the 20-30% cuts imposed on the public sector, and the green political agenda is driving projects like electrification and IEP.

Politicians are not all fools and knaves and sometimes get things right, or at least to turn out better than they might have.

You need only look to the Post Office for an example of how railways would be treated today if they hadn't been through the privatisation mill.
 

WatcherZero

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Too many people don't vote but then again as much as I have always been pro-voting there is an argument creeping in against my point of view and it's this...

If 70-75% of our law is made in Brussels by people we have no idea about and whom are not accountable, why bother voting at all? It'll only be imposed on you and the UK government is only there to implement the law coming from Europe. It is a fair comment to now say...why bother voting? (if you use this as an argument). Our votes matter little and only apply to domestic only affairs which are precious few now.

The only saving grace is our economic policy that cannot be bent by a useless Eurozone model. Bad though we have it - at least we can take action fiscally without having to get agreement from 27 member states most of which are not using a dynamic economic model for competitiveness either now or in the future!

You mean not accountable apart from the fact we elect the European Parliament and our own elected government appoints the Commisioners?
The argument that Commisioners arent directly elected has always been shot down by national governments because the alternative is we elect them too and then whatever government we elect nationally has no say or influence on whatever government we elect across the continent. Basically greater democracy is resisted by national governments because they will lose more power themselves.
 

yorksrob

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Labour decided railways were "not a priority" on gaining power in 1997, and would not in any case have abrogated the 25 franchises signed by the Tories - the City would have been incensed and that would have damaged the whole government programme.

Today, the current privatisation model is why the railways are not (at least yet) suffering the 20-30% cuts imposed on the public sector, and the green political agenda is driving projects like electrification and IEP.

Politicians are not all fools and knaves and sometimes get things right, or at least to turn out better than they might have.

You need only look to the Post Office for an example of how railways would be treated today if they hadn't been through the privatisation mill.

Labour are in my opinion, quite a lazy party. They like to talk about reform and change of public services, but they give up easily if it's too difficult.

Whilst reversing a fete accomplis of privatisation would have been too much for them (as it turned out to be), had railway privatisation not have happenned beforehand, I suspect they would have found a carve up such as we have today, too problematic and left the railway as it was.

Don't forget as well that the Post office has in effect had to allow for it's most profitable flows to be cherry-picked away in the name of competition, no doubt chipping away at cross-subsidy for the universal service. (sound familiar anyone?)

Even for the railway, the cuts are coming - that is what McNulty is for.

Politicians might not be knaves but they are certainly fools. They did not get railway privatisation right.
 
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tbtc

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You mean not accountable apart from the fact we elect the European Parliament and our own elected government appoints the Commisioners?
The argument that Commisioners arent directly elected has always been shot down by national governments because the alternative is we elect them too and then whatever government we elect nationally has no say or influence on whatever government we elect across the continent. Basically greater democracy is resisted by national governments because they will lose more power themselves.

I'm glad you said this.

Everyone in the EU is either directly elected by the people (the Parliament) or chosen by people elected by the people (the Commissioners are chosen by our elected representatives in national parliaments). EU Civil Servants aren't elected, of course, but then neither are UK Civil Servants.

If anything, the EU is much more democratic than the Houses of Parliament, as the Upper Chamber at Westminster (the House of Lords) is hardly a shining example of directly elected representatives. Yet the people complaining about "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" don't seem to complain about the HoL in the same way...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today, the current privatisation model is why the railways are not (at least yet) suffering the 20-30% cuts imposed on the public sector, and the green political agenda is driving projects like electrification and IEP.

You need only look to the Post Office for an example of how railways would be treated today if they hadn't been through the privatisation mill.

Good points there, interesting
 

SS4

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I'm glad you said this.

Everyone in the EU is either directly elected by the people (the Parliament) or chosen by people elected by the people (the Commissioners are chosen by our elected representatives in national parliaments). EU Civil Servants aren't elected, of course, but then neither are UK Civil Servants.

If anything, the EU is much more democratic than the Houses of Parliament, as the Upper Chamber at Westminster (the House of Lords) is hardly a shining example of directly elected representatives. Yet the people complaining about "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" don't seem to complain about the HoL in the same way...

Yes but that's ignored in favour of the Fourth Reich :roll: and why let fact get in the way of a nice anti-EU story
 

RichW1

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I hear your argument but frankly I NEVER voted to be ruled from Brussels....not ever. That is why it is undemocratic. I'm ruled by people I didn't have a vote for. It matters little whether they are picked by representatives of our elected government because the fact is they are not voted in to hand away our sovereignty. That is the fact in a nutshell and isn't as complicated as people believe. Yes it's a complicated mess, but from first principles it isn't complex at all; Do you vote to have law debated in a foreign country and then dictated back to you when those countries have a completely different economic model and existence to you? No. We vote for a UK parliament, not for a bloated undemocratic, bureaucratic uncompetitive EU model but Europe is where most law is made. Therefore, no, Euro MP's are not voted for by the people in general and neither is any attempt made to make a big deal of it either. Any representative from this country is up against 26 other nations that don't share our economic vision and so it's no wonder it's kept quiet - we keep having to swallow a lot without recourse.

I don't just find that distasteful, I find it offensive. As for the House of Lords, they actually do a job in scrutinising legislation and whether you agree with it being democratic or not the Lords house does not have the same power as Brussels - they're there to scrutinise Commons decisions not make the law itself.
 

yorksrob

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If anything, the EU is much more democratic than the Houses of Parliament, as the Upper Chamber at Westminster (the House of Lords) is hardly a shining example of directly elected representatives. Yet the people complaining about "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" don't seem to complain about the HoL in the same way...

Nation states, are by size and history, closer to their electorates than a sort of super-national body such as the EU. The institutions of the EU might be technically more democratic, but the EU voter will have a lot less influence over EU matters than over those dealt with through their national parliament - even our very imperfect parliament.
 

tbtc

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I hear your argument but frankly I NEVER voted to be ruled from Brussels....not ever. That is why it is undemocratic. I'm ruled by people I didn't have a vote for. It matters little whether they are picked by representatives of our elected government because the fact is they are not voted in to hand away our sovereignty. That is the fact in a nutshell and isn't as complicated as people believe. Yes it's a complicated mess, but from first principles it isn't complex at all; Do you vote to have law debated in a foreign country and then dictated back to you when those countries have a completely different economic model and existence to you? No. We vote for a UK parliament, not for a bloated undemocratic, bureaucratic uncompetitive EU model but Europe is where most law is made. Therefore, no, Euro MP's are not voted for by the people in general and neither is any attempt made to make a big deal of it either. Any representative from this country is up against 26 other nations that don't share our economic vision and so it's no wonder it's kept quiet - we keep having to swallow a lot without recourse.

I don't just find that distasteful, I find it offensive. As for the House of Lords, they actually do a job in scrutinising legislation and whether you agree with it being democratic or not the Lords house does not have the same power as Brussels - they're there to scrutinise Commons decisions not make the law itself.

Your argument ignores that the fact that the only referendum the UK has ever had (before next week's AV one becomes the second) was over the EU. The "pro" EU camp won a majority of the UK vote.

Similarly, the parties in favour of continued EU membership have won a clear majority of the UK vote in every election since then (the only major party to be against EU membership was Labour in 1983, and we all know what happened there).

The fact that you are against "unelected" EU representatives (who are either elected directly or nominated by our directly elected representatives), yet are in favour of the unelected House of Lords says a lot...

Of course, it depends how you want to frame your argument. For example, did all parts of the UK vote on whether to be ruled by London? ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nation states, are by size and history, closer to their electorates than a sort of super-national body such as the EU. The institutions of the EU might be technically more democratic, but the EU voter will have a lot less influence over EU matters than over those dealt with through their national parliament - even our very imperfect parliament.

But then you could apply the same approach to the UK and state that a wholly independant Scottish parliament will be closer to its electorates than a sort of super-national body such as Westminster. The institutions of Westminster might be technically more democratic, but the Scottish voter will have a lot less influence over UK matters than over those dealt with through their national parliament in Holyrood.

The whole idea of a "nation state" is nonsense, in my eyes, though. The UK is hardly a "nation state", given the differences between England/ Scotland/ Wales/ Northern Ireland. The "one size fits all" definition doesn't work. Some decisions need to be made at different levels than others.
 

WatcherZero

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And the fact european elections take place and you elect the MEP's mean you do have a say and it is democratic, you have a vote for them every 5 years. If you wanted to vote against being an EU member you could vote for UKIP but its pointless to do so in a european election as its our national government which determines if we are in or not and their record in the European Parliament has been less than steller, not turning up, voting for more integration and being kicked out of office for expenses fraud and being kicked out of the party for not supporting racist far right EU parties.
 

yorksrob

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But then you could apply the same approach to the UK and state that a wholly independant Scottish parliament will be closer to its electorates than a sort of super-national body such as Westminster. The institutions of Westminster might be technically more democratic, but the Scottish voter will have a lot less influence over UK matters than over those dealt with through their national parliament in Holyrood.

The whole idea of a "nation state" is nonsense, in my eyes, though. The UK is hardly a "nation state", given the differences between England/ Scotland/ Wales/ Northern Ireland. The "one size fits all" definition doesn't work. Some decisions need to be made at different levels than others.

Quite, but the fact that the devolved institutions are so (relatively speaking) popular is to me an argument in favour of decision making being as close to the electorate as possible.

Why does the EU need to say what our minimum VAT rate should be. Why does the EU need to specify that the postal system should be opened up to competition if our existing system works for our needs. These are things that the country should decide IMO, maybe in some cases the devolved nations.

So many of our institutions such as the legal system, the transport system, the media etc operate at the national level, it seems perfectly right that more of these decisions should be taken at the national level (and lower) than for the whole EU, where frankly, one size is even less likely to fit all than for the UK.
 

RichW1

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Your argument ignores that the fact that the only referendum the UK has ever had (before next week's AV one becomes the second) was over the EU. The "pro" EU camp won a majority of the UK vote.

Similarly, the parties in favour of continued EU membership have won a clear majority of the UK vote in every election since then (the only major party to be against EU membership was Labour in 1983, and we all know what happened there).

The fact that you are against "unelected" EU representatives (who are either elected directly or nominated by our directly elected representatives), yet are in favour of the unelected House of Lords says a lot...

Of course, it depends how you want to frame your argument. For example, did all parts of the UK vote on whether to be ruled by London? ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But then you could apply the same approach to the UK and state that a wholly independant Scottish parliament will be closer to its electorates than a sort of super-national body such as Westminster. The institutions of Westminster might be technically more democratic, but the Scottish voter will have a lot less influence over UK matters than over those dealt with through their national parliament in Holyrood.

The whole idea of a "nation state" is nonsense, in my eyes, though. The UK is hardly a "nation state", given the differences between England/ Scotland/ Wales/ Northern Ireland. The "one size fits all" definition doesn't work. Some decisions need to be made at different levels than others.

London doesn't rule the UK, it's where the law is debated (as I'm a Londoner I feel this must be put right!;) Scotland is part of the UK and the people wish it to remain so as England is part and Wales and N.Ireland. We are one sovereign State - The UK. I'm not against the House of Lords because I believe having some older experienced people debating amendments and scrutinising legislation is a good thing and they aren't MAKING law. If they were I would understand a little more where you're coming from. They are not a threat and a lot of the heireditary peerage has been eroded.

You say the parties have won all voting for EU membership...where's my vote? Who voted? There's been no national vote on the EU regardless of pro-parties. We've always been in favour of trading relationship not a superstate. The EU makes us less competitive and our framework economically as designed is far superior to anything on the continent. Don't take my word for it, speak to all the guys in the City and they'll tell you what they think of the EU and i worked there too. I always like the fact that London trades more Euros in a day than the rest of Eurozone put together!! Sounds unreal but it's absolutely true. Yet, the EU carps from the sidelines trying to make things like economic rules uncompetitive when they haven't noticed what's happening around the globe. It sickens me.

There's simply been no vote on wehther my country should be ruled from another country. It's happened by stealth and that isn't democratic.
 

Bon Accord

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Regarding trading relationship, the UK burnt a lot of its trading bridges with the old Commonwealth/Empire with the creation of the common market and the resultant import tariffs.
If nothing else, it can be said that the rise of the EEC (and thence EU) effectively killed off one of the things which made Britain great - that of our seagoing prowess. The Merchant Navy has never recovered.
 

LE Greys

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I'm glad you said this.

Everyone in the EU is either directly elected by the people (the Parliament) or chosen by people elected by the people (the Commissioners are chosen by our elected representatives in national parliaments). EU Civil Servants aren't elected, of course, but then neither are UK Civil Servants.

If anything, the EU is much more democratic than the Houses of Parliament, as the Upper Chamber at Westminster (the House of Lords) is hardly a shining example of directly elected representatives. Yet the people complaining about "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" don't seem to complain about the HoL in the same way...

Well, yes, that works very well for an institution such as the United Nations, but these are people with considerably more power and not directly elected by the people they serve. Would we have elected Peter Mandleson to represent us in Europe? I certainly wouldn't! A much better system would be to have the Council of Ministers set up like the U.S. Senate, with one or two directly-elected senators from each country, and the Commission set up by whichever party has control of the European Parliament. I'd also have a President of Europe - although with virtually no powers, something like the German president - purely as a figurehead.

I agree with you about the House of Lords. It would be much better to have a revising chamber elected by some system or other. I'd prefer PR from the General Election, to avoid having an extra poll, but that causes two problems. If we take non-votes and spoilt ballots as a vote for a cross-bencher, there would be an awful lot of them. It also raises the possibility of extremist parties getting in in low numbers. I'm not sure what the answer is, but we really can't go on with the current system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To get back to the subject, the main problems with route competition were BR regionalisation and the Beeching Report. Nationalisation left BR with lots of duplicated lines, the Midland and the Great Central, GWR and LSWR to Exeter, LMS and GWR to Birmingham, and so on. Under the Big 4, this provided plenty of competition, so passengers and freight customers did very well out of it. Price wars and "races" to various places happened every now and then. However, BR management obviously decided that this was inefficient, thus Oxford-Birmingham and Marylebone-Sheffield went to London Midland Region, Salisbury-Exeter went to Western Region, The Settle-Carlisle went to North Eastern Region and so on. However, most of the old Big 4 management was still around. Guess what? The transferred routes started to be starved of traffic and run down. Then Beeching came along and started to eliminate them altogether. Some survived as regional routes, and some of those have even undergone a revival after privatisation - Marylebone-Birmingham is a good alternative to the WCML. Others are gone completely, or have bits attached as appendages to the rival that took them over. The best thing would be to connect them back up again, unmix the tangles in Yorkshire and the Midlands, and have franchises based on the pre-1922 companies. That way, you would have routes that interweave and cross each other, potentially bringing back the races and price wars. It might not be as efficient, but it also might just work.
 

Zoe

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The best thing would be to connect them back up again, unmix the tangles in Yorkshire and the Midlands, and have franchises based on the pre-1922 companies. That way, you would have routes that interweave and cross each other, potentially bringing back the races and price wars. It might not be as efficient, but it also might just work.
If you are going to do that then why have franchises at all? Why not just sell the routes to different companies with regulation to prevent mergers/takeovers that would remove competition?
 

jrhilton

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1. British Rail gave us the HST.

2. Privatisation gave us Voyagers.


If you put it that way surely you could say BR gave us the HST, but look what others achieved, SNCF and Alstom did the TGV, DB and Siemens (amongst other firms) did the ICE, Japan did the Shinkansen network.

Suddenly it doesn't look so good for BR, with the usual counter argument being, oh but the HST was good because it saved us from having to electrify routes.

Privatisation has given us countless technically good trains too (Siemens Desiro etc). The HST design was not exactly cutting edge at the time compared to the Shinkansen trains in Japan for example.

I don't think you can conclude on the whole public vs privatisation argument by looking at trains alone.
 

jon0844

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I think that we should run the railways like Scotrail and London Buses. The competition will be the competitive nature of the operators of a route, to keep costs down and be more efficient (in theory) but not to the end user that now gets a unified fleet (bar the open access operators) and standardised ticketing.

That would solve a number of problems. It would also help in times of disruption with it being even easier to allow people to travel on other acceptable routes. It would also change the way the TOCs all bill each other during disruption, and stop the issues where one TOC palms people off to another.

Only the regulars or enthusiasts would know that First are running a particular line, and I doubt it matters much given the average person doesn't care about who First or Stagecoach are anyway. As long as First makes its money behind the scenes, what does it care either?

Once this is done, let's do all the rural buses too so county councils aren't stuck with subsidising the unprofitable routes while a few private operators compete to suck every penny from the profitable ones. It also means that one single body can manage the timetables, rolling stock and staffing levels a lot more efficiently.
 

Zoe

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I think that we should run the railways like Scotrail and London Buses. The competition will be the competitive nature of the operators of a route, to keep costs down and be more efficient (in theory) but not to the end user that now gets a unified fleet (bar the open access operators) and standardised ticketing.
I agree with your plan would be better than what we have now but the issue some people may have is that it could cost the taxpayer more. With the current system the private companies compete with each other for the right to run the train service in the franchise but then can set their own fares. With a system like London buses private companies would be paid to run the service rather than paying the dft a premium.
 

yorksrob

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Suddenly it doesn't look so good for BR, with the usual counter argument being, oh but the HST was good because it saved us from having to electrify routes.

The HST was exactly what was needed at the time, which was not surprising, bearing in mind BR developed and tested it's own trains. It was a logical step, once it was realised that funds for electrification would be slow in coming (a darn site slower after privatisation as it turns out).

It also makes sense to do it this way round, rather than buy a load of trains off the peg and discover that you have to spend billions upgrading the power supply to use them.
 

RichW1

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Yeh it's beyond me why the relevant people can't sit down and come up with a great generic IC train for the conventional network with an electric version in the most part and a rolling programme of electrification so that as the network's electrified then more trains are ordered. Spreads costs and stops this weird scenario where we order a few and then a totally different train order, then a few more a decade later. The IC rolling stock is a mess.
 

jon0844

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One problem is a lack of investment for so long on rolling stock, with the assumption that the current trains would last forever (which, to a degree, they will).

The problem is the exceptional growth means there is now a shortage of rolling stock. Existing trains may last for many more years, but there aren't exactly loads of spares. Hence inappropriate trains being used in some places, as there's simply nothing else.

I have always wondered why we couldn't build modern 'Mk5' coaches and new locos, which would be interchangeable with the current IC stock to bolster the fleet and work the same routes.

Instead we might go for all-new trains to replace the lot, which is fine, but it is yet to happen and seems far more expensive than having done it in stages over the last 10+ years.
 

SS4

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Perhaps it's because rolling stock is a key differentiator between TOCs. A Pendolino is marketed as luxurious and fast whereas a desiro is less so but instead designed for mid-length journeys or to save money at the expense of time.
 

HYPODERMIC

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London doesn't rule the UK, it's where the law is debated (as I'm a Londoner I feel this must be put right!;) Scotland is part of the UK and the people wish it to remain so as England is part and Wales and N.Ireland. We are one sovereign State - The UK. I'm not against the House of Lords because I believe having some older experienced people debating amendments and scrutinising legislation is a good thing and they aren't MAKING law. If they were I would understand a little more where you're coming from. They are not a threat and a lot of the heireditary peerage has been eroded.

You say the parties have won all voting for EU membership...where's my vote? Who voted? There's been no national vote on the EU regardless of pro-parties. We've always been in favour of trading relationship not a superstate. The EU makes us less competitive and our framework economically as designed is far superior to anything on the continent. Don't take my word for it, speak to all the guys in the City and they'll tell you what they think of the EU and i worked there too. I always like the fact that London trades more Euros in a day than the rest of Eurozone put together!! Sounds unreal but it's absolutely true. Yet, the EU carps from the sidelines trying to make things like economic rules uncompetitive when they haven't noticed what's happening around the globe. It sickens me.

There's simply been no vote on wehther my country should be ruled from another country. It's happened by stealth and that isn't democratic.

I'm sorry to divert this thread further, but as flawed as the EU is, I can't really stand for the myths that surround it - the intellectual laziness is bad enough, but when I see people switch off from democracy (a dangerous thing) because of untruths I think corrections need to be made. Have no fear, Rich, I'm gonna set you on the straight and narrow and let you vote with confidence.

You say the vast majority of laws are now imposed on us by the European Union - a figure you put in the region of 70%. The fact that this figure varies so wildly from person to person is a telling enough sign of an urban myth (as the link I'm about to provide will also discuss), and the statistics do it no compliment either. The actual percentage of laws derived from the EU is actually much closer to 20%.

Sure, that's 20% of laws you didn't vote for, but I can just as quickly assure you that I didn't vote for well over 20% of what the Coalition is implementing. Does that mean I'm going to cry foul and bail out on democracy? Not at all. I think compromise is the very essence of democracy and I broadly support the Coalition for attempting to spread two manifestos over the statute books instead of just one. The EU, similarly, provides a platform for issues that cannot be resolved by the member-states, such as the environment and international trade.

You then defend the unelected House of Lords, rightly pointing out that they can't actually table legislation themselves (something known as legislative primacy; as a side note, this is repeatedly withheld from the European Parliament on the basis of nationalism - don't want too much democracy or else it might start to seem more legit than our own system!). But while the Lords may not have primacy, it has delay - and has several times used this power to reject laws it does not favour by pushing them past the wash-up session at the end of a Parliament. You also point to the wisdom and experience of the Lords - but of the 729 members, 26 of them Lords Spiritual (people influencing and "scrutinising" laws purely from a CoE perspective!), and the 678 life peers have often been appointed often on the basis of political favour and not suitability. The turnout of 528 members on the constituency boundaries vote some weeks ago was one of the highest in many years - and yet that was not much more than two-thirds of the chamber! Cameron alone has created 116 new life peers; that's a pretty stuffing of appointments (though not all have been Tories of course) and I think it's also a bit strange to suggest that it's somehow good scrutiny; peers are just as prone to bias as the members of the Commons and a debate I was watching before Christmas was rather unflattering to the House, a peer telling the world about the flaws of same-sex marriage and adoption (the subject of the debate was the recognition of the status of codepedents).

I think you do the Lords far too much credit, though I have perhaps done it too little and do acknowledge the advantages of bicameralism and the scrutiny it sometimes provides (thought not as often, and not as fairly, as you might think!).

Let me put it another way. You are quick to defend London; it doesn't "rule" over the UK, you say. Well, believe me, it rules in all but formality. From culture to investment, it is an enormous black hole draining away from the regions. You're kidding yourself if you think London's status and prestige doesn't negatively impact on the rest of the UK. As someone now living in Manchester (I moved up from the south a few months ago, so I'm not being some paranoid northerner here!) you can bet your house I'd vote for some devolution of powers to Manchester if I were given the chance. There's simply no way the civil servants in London can understand the things that need doing in Manchester (or Birmingham, or Leeds, or Sheffield, or Liverpool... etc). We need greater devolution and greater regionalism - and less London-centrism - if we want to "rebalance" the economy and the country as David Cameron says he wants to. London is a great boost to the UK and it's natural that a capital receives the lion's share, don't get me wrong!

From trains to television, I can tell have far greater concerns about London than the European Union. The EU may fiddle around with things that didn't need tweaking, but London is a black hole. I love it regardless - again, I'm from the south and London is my dream when I find a job with a big enough salary to support it! - but I can tell you this for certain - you try living in the regions for a few months and you'll suddenly realise that London could as well be a country unto itself! London is a wonderful place, but it's a much bigger problem for the regions than the European Union, I can promise you that first-hand.

So yeah, anyway, privatisation...
 

RichW1

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2010
Messages
400
Location
Harrogate
Undecided about a Mark 5 although it could well be a dream option, but IEP worries me so much. The plans laid out don't even make the trains long enough to deal with today's demand let alone tomorrows. I just don't know what people planning this think sometimes, I really don't. We've got overcrowding with 7 8 and 9 car IC's, so let's make an IEP with 5 cars and we'll join 2 5cars together.....errr what's the point in building 5 car units if you're not going to ever use them as 5 cars? They'll use them as 5 car IC's alright, and we'll have to be crushed by trains they decide to run shorter thean the old ones. You may think me cynical or wrong but you'll see, if IEP comes about I'll be proved right and again you'll just see angry people at the divs with a lack of vision or common sense! At least Virgin has bucked the trend and got 11car Pendos coming (or whoever gets the franchise).
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
I think the major issue we have with the railways is that those who have the power to make key decisions never use the services they're giving to the customer and consequently have no idea as to the realities of the railway. I do not remember BR but I suspect it was much the same issue

Add to that a relatively short franchise and it tends to deter investment (why invest if you're going to lose out in a few years and another TOC can cream off profits on your work and cost?) I would like to see it fully nationalised under and independent committee since parties cannot be trusted or, if it must remain in private hands, long franchises with clauses demanding investment
 
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