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Were we lied to about Privitisation?

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Andrew Nelson

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Do We really have competition?

We were told Privatisation would bring competition, is there much?

Franchises don't do any more than change Train Colours and Uniforms of Staff. Dft tells them levels of services, stock etc.

One company sets the fares for all travel between two points. (Purchased for walk-up fares).

The only private parts are the Open Access services, and the Dft seems to do its best to scupper those.

Love the way spell-check keeps wanting to change DfT to daft.
 
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Yew

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I fail to see how not allowing more than one toc on each route allows competition.... i suppose maybe you could put ecml and wcml against eachother from london => scotland, or in areas where two services go to the same place (lincoln => mansfield, via worksop or nottingham, ie, northern or emt) However there are few situations where theyere is real competition
 

ralphchadkirk

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One company sets the fares for all travel between two points. (Purchased for walk-up fares).

You might want to rephrase that, because you're currently saying that one company is setting every fare in the system - given that every ticket is for travel between two points!

The only private parts are the Open Access services, and the Dft seems to do its best to scupper those.
Do you have evidence to support that claim?
 

seagull

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No, I don't believe we see a truly competitive market with operating trains - and if a company wants to start a new service, they quite often don't seem to be allowed to 'if it might interfere with' another companies services. So the customer gets no choice or say in the matter at all.

I used to think privatisation would be a Good Thing - and perhaps in some ways it has been - but I hate the way the taxpayer's money is used to subsidise all these private companies and put money into multiple directors and shareholders pockets.

A decent, efficient railway shouldn't need subsidising, other than (as with buses) a few of the late/early services which lose money. And an efficient railway system should only need a handful of Finance/Safety/Marketing/Managing Directors (regional ones) rather than the multitude that exist now, a fresh set for each TOC.
 

yorkie

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One company sets the fares for all travel between two points. (Purchased for walk-up fares)..
Sorry to keep repeating myself, but as I told you in the Wigan-Preston topic, a TOC sets the inter-available fare between two points. There is nothing to stop another TOC setting their own TOC-specific fares on such flows. I have given you two examples already, Crewe or Stoke to Manchester, where Virgin have their own, cheaper, fares.

In some cases, TOCs do choose to set their own fares. In other cases, they choose not to. It is a choice they have.

I'm not saying I completely agree with this situation, but the quote above could be considered misleading, so it does need to be challenged.
 

Hydro

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I couldn't answer this question without a bit more research and knowledge than I currently have, but I do wonder why "moderation of competition" clauses exist when the idea of privatisation was to encourage competition and thus, cheaper fares.
 

yorkie

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I couldn't answer this question without a bit more research and knowledge than I currently have, but I do wonder why "moderation of competition" clauses exist when the idea of privatisation was to encourage competition and thus, cheaper fares.
Agreed. However I understand that the current clauses expire shortly and will not be replaced. The legality of them is highly dubious. It's a shame for WSMR as that must clearly be one of the factors that worked against them.
 

All Line Rover

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There is nothing to stop another TOC setting their own TOC-specific fares on such flows. I have given you two examples already, Crewe or Stoke to Manchester, where Virgin have their own, cheaper, fares.

Applause for Virgin Trains! :D

The VT Only Crewe>Manchester tickets are really cheap. Why bother travelling with Northern any more!?
 

Andrew Nelson

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No, I don't believe we see a truly competitive market with operating trains - and if a company wants to start a new service, they quite often don't seem to be allowed to 'if it might interfere with' another companies services. So the customer gets no choice or say in the matter at all.

I used to think privatisation would be a Good Thing - and perhaps in some ways it has been - but I hate the way the taxpayer's money is used to subsidise all these private companies and put money into multiple directors and shareholders pockets.

A decent, efficient railway shouldn't need subsidising, other than (as with buses) a few of the late/early services which lose money. And an efficient railway system should only need a handful of Finance/Safety/Marketing/Managing Directors (regional ones) rather than the multitude that exist now, a fresh set for each TOC.

Here here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I fail to see how not allowing more than one toc on each route allows competition.... i suppose maybe you could put ecml and wcml against eachother from london => scotland, or in areas where two services go to the same place (lincoln => mansfield, via worksop or nottingham, ie, northern or emt) However there are few situations where theyere is real competition

"not allowing more than one toc on each route allows competition.... "

Where did I say that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I couldn't answer this question without a bit more research and knowledge than I currently have, but I do wonder why "moderation of competition" clauses exist when the idea of privatisation was to encourage competition and thus, cheaper fares.

Yes, very true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry to keep repeating myself, but as I told you in the Wigan-Preston topic, a TOC sets the inter-available fare between two points. There is nothing to stop another TOC setting their own TOC-specific fares on such flows. I have given you two examples already, Crewe or Stoke to Manchester, where Virgin have their own, cheaper, fares.

In some cases, TOCs do choose to set their own fares. In other cases, they choose not to. It is a choice they have.

I'm not saying I completely agree with this situation, but the quote above could be considered misleading, so it does need to be challenged.

Plenty of people seem not to agree with You I'm afraid.

Those living in the real world see it differently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Applause for Virgin Trains! :D

The VT Only Crewe>Manchester tickets are really cheap. Why bother travelling with Northern any more!?

What are they?

Maybee missing somthing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Applause for Virgin Trains! :D

The VT Only Crewe>Manchester tickets are really cheap. Why bother travelling with Northern any more!?



Applause for Virgin Trains! ....silence.
 

Lampshade

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Applause for Virgin Trains! :D

The VT Only Crewe>Manchester tickets are really cheap. Why bother travelling with Northern any more!?

They're only cheap because the Pendolinos would be empty otherwise, most 'full' Pendos out of Piccadilly are people on VT-only tickets heading to Crewe/Wilmslow/Macclesfield.

Hydro said:
I couldn't answer this question without a bit more research and knowledge than I currently have, but I do wonder why "moderation of competition" clauses exist when the idea of privatisation was to encourage competition and thus, cheaper fares.

That's because the DfT wanted the maximum possible revenue from Virgin for the upgrading of the WCML. Obviously with OAOs on the WCML, Virgin's revenue overall would be less.
 

Andrew Nelson

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They're only cheap because the Pendolinos would be empty otherwise, most 'full' Pendos out of Piccadilly are people on VT-only tickets heading to Crewe/Wilmslow/Macclesfield.



That's because the DfT wanted the maximum possible revenue from Virgin for the upgrading of the WCML. Obviously with OAOs on the WCML, Virgin's revenue overall would be less.

Sorry? OAO?
 

Invincibles

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I am certainly well aware of the Virgin only tickets out of Manchester where there is competition with Northern and Cross Country.

Another feature of privatisation is the increased competition with the other transport modes, notably the way virgin sets out to compete with air travel between Manchester and London. This may be a product of the WCML upgrade and so something which we can not readily compare BR for, but it would seem to me that Virgin are much more proactive in that area.

As most of us vote for one of the three major parties and none have made any move to oppose privatisation then I guess we were either lied to, or just accepted that it is how the railways are run.

I am afraid I fail to see the strength of deception that would warrant a feeling of having been lied to (unless you mean the Labour pledge to renationalise - but that was obviously fake wasn't it?)
 

ralphchadkirk

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Ah, thanks.

I have been getting infractions for useing such things. as WG an KG instead of Westgate and Kirkgate....

Strange that.

In the FT&R section they like the proper TLCs to be used for stations (understandably).
 

SS4

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There are some VT only in the West Midlands between WVH-BHM-BHI which are about £1 cheaper than any permitted (usually not worth it IMO since LM are far more frequent and Pendos get hot)

I was too young to understand privatisation but I got the impression that if you are able to plan your journey in advance with plenty of time to spare then it's cheaper (read advance fares) although it has got more expensive to walk up and go which is a shame. I admit I'm lucky in the fact I usually go from Birmingham to London and I have 3 TOCs to choose from and competition is decent.
 

yorkie

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Sorry to keep repeating myself, but as I told you in the Wigan-Preston topic, a TOC sets the inter-available fare between two points. There is nothing to stop another TOC setting their own TOC-specific fares on such flows. I have given you two examples already, Crewe or Stoke to Manchester, where Virgin have their own, cheaper, fares.

In some cases, TOCs do choose to set their own fares. In other cases, they choose not to. It is a choice they have.

I'm not saying I completely agree with this situation, but the quote above could be considered misleading, so it does need to be challenged.
Plenty of people seem not to agree with You I'm afraid.

Those living in the real world see it differently..
And who are those people? Anyone is welcome to disagree with me, but I am unsure anyone is, on this point (apart from you?)


Ah, thanks.

I have been getting infractions for useing such things. as WG an KG instead of Westgate and Kirkgate....

Strange that.
No, you did not get an infraction for that, you got an infraction for using 'txt spk' which is specifically against our rules, and that was only after several PMs were exchanged and I asked you to not use 'txt spk'.

Acronyms are okay, providing they are correct. If they are not correct, then please do not post them. It is best practice to state the name once, where possible.

Wakefield Westgate is WKF; Wakefield Kirkgate is WKK. If you wish to use station codes, use the 3-letter codes that are used on:
- Ticket booking websites;
- National Rail Website (including stations made easy, journey planner);
- Avantix Traveller;
- Live Departure Boards;
- Many 3rd-party apps

Using 2-letter unofficial codes, or incorrect 3-letter codes, will cause confusion. Please don't :)

This is especially important in the Fares, Ticketing & Routeing section of the forum.

Thanks.
 

thefab444

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Ah, thanks.

I have been getting infractions for useing such things. as WG an KG instead of Westgate and Kirkgate....

Strange that.

OAO is an official term, "WG" for Wakefield Westgate is not.

EDIT: Beaten to it by York.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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"And who are those people? Anyone is welcome to disagree with me, but I am unsure anyone is, on this point "

well there's 3 people on this thread alone for a start.

Who? I can't see anyone who has disagreed with Yorkie on that point.
 

WatcherZero

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The restriction on competition rules existed where the operator was making significant private investment and the government agreed the need to ensure they were not wiped out by a competitor undercutting them because they were not making that investment themselves but benefitting from it. As has been said these deals will cease to exist with WCML franchise change.

Simply put competition exists because the fare box revenue is divided between the operators of the service, you have six operators running trains on a certain route and the money is divided between them by the number of seats they provide and likelihood that they are filled by the customers. The companies are competing to offer as many of these seats as possible at the cheapest cost to make the most profit. If a company cant compete with the unit cost of a competitor they will lose money on the route and/ord go bankrupt as has been seen.

Open access operators can come in and create an entirlely new route which if the path is available and would create new customers they can do. However if they are just competing to provide seats and not attracting new customers they are making a route less sustainable, probably requiring more subsidy due to the pot being shared by more ToC's than is sustainable and could lead to problems. If you want to see what happens look to the Bus Wars, total chaos and financial ruin. Therefore the open access operators are asked to pass an abstraction test to show they are actually offering a new service.
 

Ze Random One

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You only have to look at a fully deregulated transport system to seen how much more of a mess we would have been in if the model was to transfer the bulk of the risk away from the taxpayer. If it had been a competitive free-for-all, with publicly owned infrastructure, you would have a situation like the bus network, where there is little cross-subsidisation (using profits from one route to bolster a socially necessary unprofitable route), few interavailable tickets, and large monopolies making up the majority of services, with the exception of "interesting" corridors. At least our existing model still provides some semblance of a network.
On the other hand, if the infastructure was in private hands, I can actually see our system turning into something like the US system, where the only routes that don't gradually die off are those with large goods or intercity passenger flows. You can say goodbye to a large number of commuter routes into most cities that way - they generally don't make much profit. That might help the finances of the railways, but the big question that rarely gets considered is that of the wider social and economic value of investment and subsidy.

The big con really is a wider one, in my opinion, and that is that "something is only worth something if the value of it can be traded on the exchanges". I truly believe that the real point of privatisation was to allow The City to play FTSE with the system. The City doesn't care whether the overall cost:benefit of the system is better or worse. They care that the shareholders make a profit. The City has little concept of a social value, and only a vague concept of a wider economic value. In fact, social value can be counterproductive as far as the stock exchanges go - better NHS Hospitals = less money for BUPA, for example, even though the country's productivity and happiness as a whole may be improved by better NHS care.

Most other countries that are privatising are doing so through the use of, in essence, DBFO contracts. "Our trains on these routes are life expired, so we shall issue a tender for someone to run them for 15 years, and they shall be required to buy the new stock."
I believe that is a more sensible approach, as it makes it clear that the privatisation is merely a vehicle to mortgage the purchase of new stock.

As to Open Access operators - our Franchised operators pay premiums (on profitable routes) to the DfT for the privilege of running services. Those premiums weigh into the subsidy:revenue calculation, and they would be considerably diminished if cut-throat competition was available on a large number of flows. As far as the DfT is concerned, infighting between franchised operators for custom should still return a premium to them (I believe most of the franchise agreements put a portion of any extra profit into the premium payable). With open access operators, the risk is entirely borne by the TOC, and so is the profit. Now that's arguably fair, but is it fair when you consider that DfT (and therefore you and me) may have spent significant sums on building custom on a route (modernisation, indirect marketing), and now they want to mitigate the risks that the taxpayer has borne by insisting on a minimum guaranteed return through a franchised TOC. There are other ways of paying that back - differential track access charges related to better capability and greater demand - but that would inflate the risk against the open access operator, possibly to a level where the market would take few risks with service provision, and we're now back into the realms of social and wider economic value.

Our system doesn't work, because it was never designed to meet the country's needs. It was designed to allow shareholders to extract the maximum revenue, under the false assumption that more profits = less costs per unit profit = more efficiency.
 
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Andrew Nelson

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You only have to look at a fully deregulated transport system to seen how much more of a mess we would have been in if the model was to transfer the bulk of the risk away from the taxpayer..........

Okay, some good points there.

So, why not go the whole hog, re-nationalise it, and keep the profits for the tax payer, rather than the shareholders?
 

Darandio

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Okay, some good points there.

So, why not go the whole hog, re-nationalise it, and keep the profits for the tax payer, rather than the shareholders?

Why should be the tax-payer be eligible for any profit? If anything, I would say use a share of profit for railway related pension funds, thats where its more deserving.
 

yorkie

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Why should be the tax-payer be eligible for any profit? If anything, I would say use a share of profit for railway related pension funds, thats where its more deserving.
I don't understand what you mean, but rail travel is heavily subsidised, but obviously TOCs themselves need to make a 'profit', this 'profit' is effectively paid for by increased subsidies. People who are pro-privatisation may argue that the profit TOCs make is more than made up for the increased efficiency of private companies, although that is difficult to accept when you consider how many 'non-jobs' there are as a direct result of privatisation (e.g. people whose job is dedicated to delay attribution).
 

Andrew Nelson

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I don't understand what you mean, but rail travel is heavily subsidised, but obviously TOCs themselves need to make a 'profit', this 'profit' is effectively paid for by increased subsidies. People who are pro-privatisation may argue that the profit TOCs make is more than made up for the increased efficiency of private companies, although that is difficult to accept when you consider how many 'non-jobs' there are as a direct result of privatisation (e.g. people whose job is dedicated to delay attribution).

Again....

Good point.

Who employs them DaFT, or the TOCs' themselves,

Or both?
 

Darandio

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I don't understand what you mean, but rail travel is heavily subsidised, but obviously TOCs themselves need to make a 'profit', this 'profit' is effectively paid for by increased subsidies. People who are pro-privatisation may argue that the profit TOCs make is more than made up for the increased efficiency of private companies, although that is difficult to accept when you consider how many 'non-jobs' there are as a direct result of privatisation (e.g. people whose job is dedicated to delay attribution).

I am not responding to anything related to TOC's and subsidy and subsequent TOC profit. The post I responded to was with regards to re-nationalisation and profits going to the taxpayer, which I cant understand.
 

Andrew Nelson

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Why should be the tax-payer be eligible for any profit? If anything, I would say use a share of profit for railway related pension funds, thats where its more deserving.

Well, I believe even now the Taxpayer is paying for it.

(Or don't Passengers pay Tax)?
 

Darandio

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Well, I believe even now the Taxpayer is paying for it.

(Or don't Passengers pay Tax)?

Yes, they are, as stated above by subsidies.

But if re-nationalised, in your plan, why would the taxpayer then become eligible for a share of profit? If we are, then can we have the profits of everything else we subsidise as well?
 
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