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We're waiting for the Oldham Loop...

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tbtc

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With Rochdale set to get a rail Airport service as part of the Northern Hub, which will be much faster than Metrolink, would there be more sense in having Airport-Bury services once the Rochdale-Airport train service is introduced?

I doubt there'd be that many people using the tram to get from either Rochdale or Bury all the way to the Airport that it'd make much difference either way.

It'll always be faster to go from Rochdale/Airport to central Manchester by train (and much faster to go from Rochdale to the Airport by train), but the tram isn't competing on the longer distance routes (in the way that London Underground aren't really aiming for the Upminster - Central London market)
 
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Greybeard33

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If there's a southbound tram that's been caught up by a following tram the first one will almost certainly be terminated short at Timperley.

BR weren't trying to send everything to the same platforms at Navigation Road and Altrincham so congestion was less of a problem.
No doubt the single track section at Newton Heath is also going to become a choke point on the Metrolink network like that at Navigation Road, with knock-on delays whenever bunching occurs in the city centre. Again there is a station on the single track, increasing dwell time.

Can anyone explain why, on both of these sections, it is considered safe to have trams and heavy rail using adjacent bi-directional tracks, segregated only by the “six foot”, but not for them to share a normal double track line? The worst-case accident scenario for both arrangements is a derailment, causing a head-on collision between a tram and a freight train travelling in opposite directions. The worst-case SPAD accident on a shared unidirectional track would be a freight train running into the back of a stationary tram, but the maximum impact speed would be lower and TPWS makes this scenario highly improbable.

Or is tram crashworthiness merely a convenient excuse? Is the real reason for segregation that Network Rail and TfGM think it would be too difficult to cooperate on pathing/priorities over shared track? These issues will have to be faced if we are ever to have tram-trains in Greater Manchester.
 

futureA

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I personally find the way a few people post about Metrolink both on here and elsewhere on the web a bit like they are a TfGM/Metrolink employee who are being paid to promote Metrolink.

What a clever way of silencing your critics...

No-one can have a 100% positive opinion of a transport system all the time as things always go wrong but some people seem to post like Metrolink suits everyone and nothing ever goes wrong or if it does it would have been much worse if it was Northern Rail, which the real users of Metrolink are quick to disagree with.

As a season ticket holder and someone who uses the system every day I would class myself as a real user. The point that I am trying to challenge on here the belief that Metrolink's reliability issues (which I haven't seen anyone deny are real) are caused because it is a tram. I also have not seen any evidence that a heavy rail systems are inherently more reliable than tram systems. Metrolink's main issue at the moment is vehicle reliability. Solve that and you make a massive difference overnight.

I've had more severe delays using the Metrolink line between Altrincham and Manchester than the heavy rail line between Knutsford and Altrincham and this is despite the fact that:
1. The heavy rail is a lot less frequent so one cancelled service automatically means a long wait.
2. I use Metrolink a lot less often than heavy rail and still get caught up in more disruption on Metrolink.

What is causing the delays on Metrolink? Are they inherently due to the fact that it is a tram system? Could they occur on a self contained heavy rail system such as Merseyrail or London Overground?

Is it any surprise that I can't agree with the people who go on about Metrolink being perfect?

No one said it was. But there are currently various programmes in operation to improve the network. In 4 years time reliability might not be an issue.
 

YorkshireBear

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Just to comment, if it is going to be Oldham to St Werburgh, the Oldham trams could equally go to East Didsbury as well as the Airport so it might not be a Rochdale Airport service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No doubt the single track section at Newton Heath is also going to become a choke point on the Metrolink network like that at Navigation Road, with knock-on delays whenever bunching occurs in the city centre. Again there is a station on the single track, increasing dwell time.

Can anyone explain why, on both of these sections, it is considered safe to have trams and heavy rail using adjacent bi-directional tracks, segregated only by the “six foot”, but not for them to share a normal double track line? The worst-case accident scenario for both arrangements is a derailment, causing a head-on collision between a tram and a freight train travelling in opposite directions. The worst-case SPAD accident on a shared unidirectional track would be a freight train running into the back of a stationary tram, but the maximum impact speed would be lower and TPWS makes this scenario highly improbable.

Or is tram crashworthiness merely a convenient excuse? Is the real reason for segregation that Network Rail and TfGM think it would be too difficult to cooperate on pathing/priorities over shared track? These issues will have to be faced if we are ever to have tram-trains in Greater Manchester.

Tram-trains are tram-trains because they are designed to be more crashworthy, so there isn't a problem in that respect.

I imagine there are two reasons. Firstly it reduces chance of a head on collision, secondly if a freight train does derail i imagine unless it derails directly infront of an oncoming tram the tram will not only be slower but will be able to brake very quickly and avert a collision.
I do understand your frustration though.

Apparently, they are looking for a new site for the facility the freight line goes to in a hope of one day making it double track again.
 

northwichcat

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The point that I am trying to challenge on here the belief that Metrolink's reliability issues (which I haven't seen anyone deny are real) are caused because it is a tram. I also have not seen any evidence that a heavy rail systems are inherently more reliable than tram systems.

Based on what WatcherZero has said the T68s aren't much different in reliability to the 142s. However, 142s are the diesel trains everyone thinks are life expired and quite a few years older than the T68s. EMUs are seen as more reliable than DMUs so the 142 and T68 comparison isn't a brilliant one but if we can compare the reliability of 323s with T68s then we have a better comparison - similar age and both electric.

What is causing the delays on Metrolink? Are they inherently due to the fact that it is a tram system? Could they occur on a self contained heavy rail system such as Merseyrail or London Overground?

Compare the Wirral line on Merseyrail with the Altrincham-Bury Metrolink line.

If there's disruption in the Deansgate area on Metrolink it usually means no service on the Altrincham line and reduced frequency on the Bury line, with passengers on the Altrincham line being advised to take the much slower bus.

If there's disruption on the city loop in Liverpool it means services from the Wirral turn round at James Street. Then if there's disruption between Ellesmere Port and Hooton it usually means the stations between Hooton and Liverpool retain a full service in the Liverpool direction.

So I would certainly think the most intensely used part of Merseyrail is much better off for avoiding serious disruption than the most intensely used part of Metrolink.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I imagine there are two reasons. Firstly it reduces chance of a head on collision, secondly if a freight train does derail i imagine unless it derails directly infront of an oncoming tram the tram will not only be slower but will be able to brake very quickly and avert a collision.
I do understand your frustration though.

It should also be noted that Metrolink on the Navigation Road section is under the control of Network Rail signalling so a freight derailment at Navigation Road could result in trams being starting/terminating at Timperley until it's cleared. (Timperley being one of the few stops on the Metrolink network that allows trams to terminate short.)

As trams are designed more for street running than as a train replacement service (more so in the case of the M5000s), the limited capacity through Navigation Road and the 2 x level crossings, I think there should be a new double line between Timperley and Altrincham not via Navigation Road, which could involve street running which would have a number of benefits.
 

YorkshireBear

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.



Compare the Wirral line on Merseyrail with the Altrincham-Bury Metrolink line.

If there's disruption in the Deansgate area on Metrolink it usually means no service on the Altrincham line and reduced frequency on the Bury line, with passengers on the Altrincham line being advised to take the much slower bus.

If there's disruption on the city loop in Liverpool it means services from the Wirral turn round at James Street. Then if there's disruption between Ellesmere Port and Hooton it usually means the stations between Hooton and Liverpool retain a full service in the Liverpool direction.

So I would certainly think the most intensely used part of Merseyrail is much better off for avoiding serious disruption than the most intensely used part of Metrolink.

I think that example is more to do with track layout than a difference between tram and train. Although it makes a good point that infrastructure in city centres should be designed so that one small problem doesn't knock out the whole network.
 

northwichcat

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I think that example is more to do with track layout than a difference between tram and train. Although it makes a good point that infrastructure in city centres should be designed so that one small problem doesn't knock out the whole network.

I agree although with heavy rail there are usually more options for diversions and the ability to use signalling to terminate trains short or to run on the 'wrong line.' (In the case of Merseyrail diversions aren't possible though due to the limited DC electrification.) That's a key reason why Metro dropped the proposal for a Leeds tram in favour of a trolleybus proposal. They envisaged the trolleybuses having a battery backup so they could simply drive around any disruption and not be stuck behind it like a tram is.
 

radamfi

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Based on what WatcherZero has said the T68s aren't much different in reliability to the 142s. However, 142s are the diesel trains everyone thinks are life expired and quite a few years older than the T68s. EMUs are seen as more reliable than DMUs so the 142 and T68 comparison isn't a brilliant one but if we can compare the reliability of 323s with T68s then we have a better comparison - similar age and both electric.

Not sure if that is a fair comparison as not all old trams are equal. For example, the legendary tram network in Zurich has trams much older than the T68s but is clearly world class.
 

Nym

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I think that example is more to do with track layout than a difference between tram and train. Although it makes a good point that infrastructure in city centres should be designed so that one small problem doesn't knock out the whole network.

With everything so densely packed though the only way I can think to reduce the knock on effects is space to terminate trams short in more areas, or more City Centre crossings.

Some things could include;

A proper re-design at Victoria with four proper, decent sized platforms if not six. (Provide two for terminating Tram-Train services to Rawthenstall, and Rochdale and Bolton via Radcliffe, or 'crowdbuster' >4 car services.

Any additional city crossings of infrastructure works should be designed to fit 6 carriage trams, a basic way of improving capacity. I know that nothing can be done about Market Street, Shudhill and it would be a challenge at Piccadilly Gardens, but them routes can be used by shorter 4 car diagrams, with 6 car diagrams using 2CC and 3CC.

If there is no chance of converting the Alty line BACK to heavy rail and providing terminating platforms in Manchester with integration of the CLC and a large interchange being provided at Cornbrook (This doesn't need to be Central Station, it can also be done by some new viaducting and using platforms that can be provided at Exchange / Victoria that would serve the CLC, Alty Lines and Chat Moss Lines via the grade seperated flow at Ordsall Lane High Level) With such a large interchange at Cornbrook, it can finally actually be classed as an interchange. (That would be one option, either converting Alty back to Heavy, and/or this;)

Metrolink 3CC:
Leave the current route from Deansgate at Deansgate Locks, new Viaduct over the junction to then run on new ramps down to street level on Whitworth Street West.
Station at Oxford Road, would possibly need to be on either side of the Oxford Road / Oxford Street Junction, but Whitworth St West isn't that busy on foot traffic so it should be OK to narrow up the paths and loose parking.
Continue down Whitworth Street up to the abandoned development at Princess Street, steal some of this development for 'Village' or 'Princess Street' station, two 6 car platforms, possibly also providing additional turn back sidings or a 3rd platform to terminate late running services here.
Continuing pretty much the same way, now either:
Continue on Whitworth St over the current junction complex at Chorlton St and Fairfeild St and into the current Piccadilly platforms.
or:
Continue down onto Fairfeild Street and cross over the 'taxi entrance' and basically steal the Short Stay Car Park for two or three terminating platforms linked into the existing metro link station by, well, opening the doors, traffic would be easy to keep clear as taxi entry is barriered so this can be used to keep the lines clear. At the actual traffic lights for the junction, these run on a rather simple scheme at the moment with a 1min20sec traffic and 30sec foot cycle, simply add in 30 secs for trams and provide a "Tram Only" lane for the length of Fairfeild Street, and re-do the pavements while you're there.

With 2CC and 3CC, if these are both compatiable with 6 car operation, only the quieter 4 car routes would run through the current 'core', the majority of these services starting or terminating at Piccadily.

5tph Bury - Piccadilly and 5tph Shaw - Piccadilly providing 10tph Vic to Pic
5tph Eccles - Piccadilly and 5tph Media City UK - Piccadilly?

There will be two routes quiet enough to make that happen, an additional 5tph will run from Deansgate to Victoria via the 1CC Core, from somewhere.

This would result in each CC route taking a much more manageable 15tph, with 6 car operation available for 30tph of these.

Since the main capacity constraint is going to be coming in from Cornbrook with 45tph not being unrealistic, this is why I'd be looking to provide as much capacity as possible in that direction. Either by bringing back Heavy Rail and providing the 2CC, then having 20tph per Core Route, that is handleable, and turn back and termination facilities at the new Cornbrook Metrolink station.

So if heavy did come back, it would take 10tph out of the tram routes, leaving the following available.
5tph Eccles
5tph Media City UK
5tph Trafford Park
5tph Manchester Airport
10tph East Didsbury

With 10tph still to spare, or a realistic level for the core to cope with 15tph per core route, with the numbers adding up nicely at Victoria too, 15tph from 2CC coming in and 5tph from Core 1 coming in with 20tph going out... (Plus the other 10tph from Piccadilly to send somewhere, but these could simply terminate at Victoria to provide nicer connections between the two)

Oh, and if anyone would care to alter the East Didsbury route by either building it with two track of space to the NE of the corridor (that they didn't, because they didn't think ahead!) or think later and move it over, the old route to Stockport could quite nicely be re-opened, providing a 2nd route from the Hope Valley and Hazel Grove avoiding Stockport Viaduct.

</rant>
 

northwichcat

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Not sure if that is a fair comparison as not all old trams are equal. For example, the legendary tram network in Zurich has trams much older than the T68s but is clearly world class.

Comparing an electric train built in the early 1990s operating in the Manchester area with an electric tram built in the early 1990s operating in the Manchester area seems a very fair comparison to me.

Older Swiss trains are also much better than older British trains, so making a comparison to a Swiss system seems irrelevant.
 

radamfi

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Comparing an electric train built in the early 1990s operating in the Manchester area with an electric tram built in the early 1990s operating in the Manchester area seems a very fair comparison to me.

Older Swiss trains are also much better than older British trains, so making a comparison to a Swiss system seems irrelevant.

The T68 isn't really a British tram. They were built by a defunct Italian manufacturer. They are considered to be very poor indeed. The new trams are similar to those in many cities around Europe and have been proven to be reliable. So hopefully when the M5000s are 20 years old they will still be half decent.
 

Nym

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The T68 isn't really a British tram. They were built by a defunct Italian manufacturer. They are considered to be very poor indeed. The new trams are similar to those in many cities around Europe and have been proven to be reliable. So hopefully when the M5000s are 20 years old they will still be half decent.

I'm sure the population of Hunslet will be happy with that, "Your trains are better than some really bad Italian trams"

I'm just wondering in fact, do the T68 units use AC or DC motors?

I think the M5000 use AC ones IIRC.

EDIT: T68 uses variable field current DC motors, T68-a uses 3 phase AC Induction Motors.
 
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northwichcat

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The T68 isn't really a British tram. They were built by a defunct Italian manufacturer.

And the older trams used in former East Germany are Czech builds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_KT4 Czech engineering isn't eactly seen as state of the art but it works.

The new trams are similar to those in many cities around Europe

If by similar you mean can't be used in any other city except Manchester but look and work in a similar way.
 

tbtc

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No doubt the single track section at Newton Heath is also going to become a choke point on the Metrolink network like that at Navigation Road, with knock-on delays whenever bunching occurs in the city centre. Again there is a station on the single track, increasing dwell time.

Can anyone explain why, on both of these sections, it is considered safe to have trams and heavy rail using adjacent bi-directional tracks, segregated only by the “six foot”, but not for them to share a normal double track line? The worst-case accident scenario for both arrangements is a derailment, causing a head-on collision between a tram and a freight train travelling in opposite directions. The worst-case SPAD accident on a shared unidirectional track would be a freight train running into the back of a stationary tram, but the maximum impact speed would be lower and TPWS makes this scenario highly improbable.

Or is tram crashworthiness merely a convenient excuse? Is the real reason for segregation that Network Rail and TfGM think it would be too difficult to cooperate on pathing/priorities over shared track? These issues will have to be faced if we are ever to have tram-trains in Greater Manchester.

I suspect that signalling will be a big issue. Trams can work on a "line of sight" basis, but obviously that wouldn't work when sharing the tracks with DMUs - hence the fact that the short extension from Meadowhall South to Rotherham isn't being worked by normal Supertrams but by specialist trams.

(seeing how pathetically grateful we are in Yorkshire for a couple of miles of additional "tram" line - the first since Supertram opened - compares badly with all the Mancunian extensions)
 

northwichcat

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(seeing how pathetically grateful we are in Yorkshire for a couple of miles of additional "tram" line - the first since Supertram opened - compares badly with all the Mancunian extensions)

Sheffield does have both a tram and rail service to Meadowhall though. The Trafford Centre has a bus shuttle to Stretford Metrolink stop and various other buses.

To me it seems Supertram in Sheffield was built to suit demand rather than just converting well used train lines and tagging on some street running bits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexity_Swift

has a list of where it is used. Does anyone know if the M5000s are theoretically interchangeable with the others on the high floor list?

High and low floor in Germany is different to England. Low floor usually means pavement level not raised pavement level and high floor is the kind of level a platform with a Harrington Hump on is at without the hump.
 
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tbtc

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Sheffield does have both a tram and rail service to Meadowhall though. The Trafford Centre has a bus shuttle to Stretford Metrolink stop and various other buses

The Sheffield tram was built two years after Meadowhall opened (so was designed to interchange with trains there/ serve the shops etc).

The Manchester tram was built around six (?) years before the Trafford Centre opened, big difference.
 

northwichcat

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The Sheffield tram was built two years after Meadowhall opened (so was designed to interchange with trains there/ serve the shops etc).

The Manchester tram was built around six (?) years before the Trafford Centre opened, big difference.

But the Trafford Centre opened long before the Eccles or Chorlton line so would have been a more logical and cheaper extension than Salford Quays to Eccles or Trafford Bar to Chorlton.
 

Nym

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Trafford Bar to Chorlton is over a disused permanent way though so is actually quite cheap (other than the lost oppo cost for other uses), But from Panoma it would have been ncie to see the line built to Trafford Park and the Trafford Centre long ago...
 

WatcherZero

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And the older trams used in former East Germany are Czech builds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_KT4 Czech engineering isn't eactly seen as state of the art but it works.



If by similar you mean can't be used in any other city except Manchester but look and work in a similar way.

Czech engineering is seen as not pretty but quite rugged and reliable. That they are still building soviet era tech and exporting them across the continent shows something must be right about the design. Interestingly the Germans wernt fond of the light Czech tanks (LT vz 38) but loved their suspension and used it on their Panzer 38(t) tanks until 1942 and on armoured vehicles afterwards.
 

snail

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But the Trafford Centre opened long before the Eccles or Chorlton line so would have been a more logical and cheaper extension than Salford Quays to Eccles or Trafford Bar to Chorlton.
Not for people travelling to Salford Quays or Eccles!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and if anyone would care to alter the East Didsbury route by either building it with two track of space to the NE of the corridor (that they didn't, because they didn't think ahead!)
Who do you mean by "they"? Isn't the problem the Trans-Pennine Trail, that uses the former trackbed?
 

northwichcat

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Not for people travelling to Salford Quays or Eccles!

I was suggesting a spur to the Trafford Centre should have been built before Eccles-Salford Quays. Salford Quays would have still been linked to Cornbrook and Manchester and Eccles-Salford Quays is probably the same speed as it would have been by bus, after all it runs on the same road that a bus would run on! Eccles-Salford Quays was also the bit that passenger numbers have been slowest to grow on, so I really don't see why with hindsight you're arguing that linking The Trafford Centre first wasn't logical.
 

radamfi

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From what I understand, the Trafford Centre line would only have been built if the it was funded by the centre's owners, and they have chosen not to fund it. In addition, town centre retailers and therefore local councillors aren't happy with the concept of using public funding to encourage even more people to desert their locality and visit the Trafford Centre instead.

Eccles to Salford Quays was easier to justify because it goes through areas that were in need of regeneration. That part of the route does benefit from some segregation so isn't quite as slow as a bus that didn't enjoy such priority. Of course, a quality bus service with similar priority would probably deliver a similar journey time if you assume equally fast bus boarding journey time. That would require as a minimum near universal smartcard use (like London) or continental style free boarding.
 
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snail

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Salford Quays would have still been linked to Cornbrook and Manchester and Eccles-Salford Quays is probably the same speed as it would have been by bus, after all it runs on the same road that a bus would run on!
(a) I think we've been here before, but isn't there a canal in the way? - the Trafford Park spur would be the wrong side of the canal for the Salford side of the Quays
(b) which bus goes from Eccles to Salford Quays? I can't find one on Traveline, the nearest single route stop (33) is about 1/2 a mile away.
 

WatcherZero

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Theres a long and interesting story about the Trafford Centres transport contributions....

When it was built they had to contribute several million to a transport project to relieve congestion. GMPTE wanted them to fund a Metrolink line (broadly same route as todays proposal but shorter and minor variations) and Pomona viaduct was built so that a route to Trafford could easily break off there.

Peel however stalled, they spent several months/years advocating their own proposal for a monorail from the Trafford centre to the City Centre. Eventually Peel managed to stall for so long GMPTE gave up and just accepted the Trafford Centre funding a network of bus routes.
 

tbtc

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But the Trafford Centre opened long before the Eccles or Chorlton line so would have been a more logical and cheaper extension than Salford Quays to Eccles or Trafford Bar to Chorlton.

Manchester has had several tram extensions built/planned since it opened, but still there's complaints about the fact that it hasn't had enough extensions.
 

radamfi

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(b) which bus goes from Eccles to Salford Quays? I can't find one on Traveline, the nearest single route stop (33) is about 1/2 a mile away.

If there was no tram, there is no reason why TfGM couldn't tender a service along that route. Of course, because there is a tram, there is no reason to develop such a bus route. In fact, the existence of the tram is probably the main reason why there is no such bus route.
 

Greybeard33

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I suspect that signalling will be a big issue. Trams can work on a "line of sight" basis, but obviously that wouldn't work when sharing the tracks with DMUs - hence the fact that the short extension from Meadowhall South to Rotherham isn't being worked by normal Supertrams but by specialist trams.
But, pending full implementation of the long-delayed Tram Management System (TMS) to support line of sight operation, the Altrincham and Bury lines are still controlled by heavy-rail type track circuit block signalling (two aspect colour lights). All currently-operational Metrolink trams are fitted with Automatic Tram Stop (ATS) equipment, which applies the magnetic track brakes if a signal is passed at Danger. As the T68 trams are progressively retired, their ATS equipment is being stripped out and transferred to the replacement M5000s.
 

WatcherZero

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Its more to do with trialling track share and the rail-wheel contact than signalling. T&W has had track sharing with freight for years through an absolute possession system.
 
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