We're waiting for the Oldham Loop...

[radamfi]

Originally the plan was to have trams every 10 minutes from Piccadilly to Altrincham and Bury with direct Altrincham to Bury trains in peak giving a 5 minute service between Bury and Market Street/High Street, and between Altrincham and Mosley Street/St Peter's Square in peak. These frequencies were revised to every 12 and 6 minutes when it was realised a more robust timetable could implemented.

So the off-peak planned 12 minute frequency was only slightly better than the off-peak 15 minute frequencies on the previous BR services. However, patronage proved to be so good that the 6 minute frequency ended up running throughout the daytime. The 12 minute evening frequency is also significantly better than the half hourly BR evening frequency. The Bury line didn't run on Sundays under BR.

Of course, had no Metrolink conversion taken place, these services could have been improved in the meantime. Perhaps a Sunday service on the Bury line and a better evening frequency. But I presume the lack of capacity would rule out a 10 minute frequency. I do think a lot of people appreciate the 6 minute daytime frequency. The 6 minute frequency between Shaw and Manchester will be pretty cool.

Obviously if GM was in Germany, most of the local lines would be connected into an S-Bahn network running cross city (like Merseyrail or the Picc-Vic tunnel concept) and trams would operate instead of the major bus corridors. Conurbations smaller than GM in Germany have a fully fledged underground metro (U-Bahn), or at least a Stadtbahn where the tram lines were partly converted to underground in the inner city.

 

[PR1Berske]

I do like it when threads descend into anti-Metrolink tirades




[sigh]

 

[tbtc]

According to Chris Davis MEP:

“Travellers to Manchester from Milnrow, Shaw and Derker will be short-changed by having to use trams that will have longer journey times than the trains they replaced

That's assuming that people's journeys were only to Victoria and weren't into the centre of Manchester.

I'd prefer a tram every six minutes to a Pacer every fifteen minutes, especially if the tram actually took me into the centre of the city properly.

 

[northwichcat]

I do like it when threads descend into anti-Metrolink tirades

[sigh]

I personally find the way a few people post about Metrolink both on here and elsewhere on the web a bit like they are a TfGM/Metrolink employee who are being paid to promote Metrolink.

No-one can have a 100% positive opinion of a transport system all the time as things always go wrong but some people seem to post like Metrolink suits everyone and nothing ever goes wrong or if it does it would have been much worse if it was Northern Rail, which the real users of Metrolink are quick to disagree with.

I've had more severe delays using the Metrolink line between Altrincham and Manchester than the heavy rail line between Knutsford and Altrincham and this is despite the fact that:
1. The heavy rail is a lot less frequent so one cancelled service automatically means a long wait.
2. I use Metrolink a lot less often than heavy rail and still get caught up in more disruption on Metrolink.

Is it any surprise that I can't agree with the people who go on about Metrolink being perfect?

That's assuming that people's journeys were only to Victoria and weren't into the centre of Manchester.

I'd prefer a tram every six minutes to a Pacer every fifteen minutes, especially if the tram actually took me into the centre of the city properly.

I thought only alternate trams will continue beyond Oldham town centre meaning the stops just after Oldham, which the MEP is quoted as talking about, will only get a 12 minute frequency and all trams will be all-stops so slower to reach Manchester.

It will also make through journeys longer. If you're doing Oldham to Liverpool, for instance, you'll need to allow time to buy a rail ticket at Manchester Victoria, as well as allowing yourself time to buy a ticket before you board the tram at Oldham.

 

[WatcherZero]

I personally find the way a few people post about Metrolink both on here and elsewhere on the web a bit like they are a TfGM/Metrolink employee who are being paid to promote Metrolink.

No-one can have a 100% positive opinion of a transport system all the time as things always go wrong but some people seem to post like Metrolink suits everyone and nothing ever goes wrong or if it does it would have been much worse if it was Northern Rail, which the real users of Metrolink are quick to disagree with.

I've had more severe delays using the Metrolink line between Altrincham and Manchester than the heavy rail line between Knutsford and Altrincham and this is despite the fact that:
1. The heavy rail is a lot less frequent so one cancelled service automatically means a long wait.
2. I use Metrolink a lot less often than heavy rail and still get caught up in more disruption on Metrolink.

Is it any surprise that I can't agree with the people who go on about Metrolink being perfect?



I thought only alternate trams will continue beyond Oldham town centre meaning the stops just after Oldham, which the MEP is quoted as talking about, will only get a 12 minute frequency and all trams will be all-stops so slower to reach Manchester.

It will also make through journeys longer. If you're doing Oldham to Liverpool, for instance, you'll need to allow time to buy a rail ticket at Manchester Victoria, as well as allowing yourself time to buy a ticket before you board the tram at Oldham.

People feel the same when people talk about the final decades of BR as if it was a golden age when it was quite apparent to anyone but a horse in blinkers that it was far from so. However people are always shaped by their experiences and pre-conceived ideas and sometimes beliefs trump evidence to the contrary, there are people on both sides of the argument who are too rooted in their beliefs to ever change their opinion, sometimes you just have to accept that and move on.

Half the trams will turn at Shaw, the same place half the heavy rail trains turned. As to journey times its likely the people north of Oldham will still do what they did before the line closed, get a train north to Rochdale rather than slower stopping service south to Victoria and catch the faster limited stop service in Rochdale. However the previous timetable was timed around connections for trains to Leeds so for Manchester the improvement in reduced waiting times should be larger.

For the weekend the Metrolink services will be much better than the hourly services on the line and a 12 minute service to Rochdale will save upto 18 minutes time versus the previous half hourly service.

 

[tbtc]

If you're doing Oldham to Liverpool, for instance, you'll need to allow time to buy a rail ticket at Manchester Victoria, as well as allowing yourself time to buy a ticket before you board the tram at Oldham.

Surely significantly more Oldham passengers are likely to benefit from a direct service into the centre of Manchester than want to change for Liverpool?

I honestly think that the majority of passengers will be better off.

 

[northwichcat]

For the weekend the Metrolink services will be much better than the hourly services on the line and a 12 minute service to Rochdale will save upto 18 minutes time versus the previous half hourly service.

Will there be tickets available for the likes of Milnrow to Manchester via Rochdale or will passengers have to rebook at Rochdale?

 

[radamfi]

As to journey times its likely the people north of Oldham will still do what they did before the line closed, get a train north to Rochdale rather than slower stopping service south to Victoria and catch the faster limited stop service in Rochdale.

I wonder what fares are going to be like from Milnrow to Manchester via Rochdale? In somewhere like Germany changing from tram to mainline train wouldn't be an issue but the UK (and GM in particular) has a very poor record on fare integration between tram and National Rail. I hope I am wrong but I highly suspect that changing at Rochdale will be prohibitively expensive for most so most Milnrow to Manchester passengers will end up going via Oldham even if it takes longer.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely significantly more Oldham passengers are likely to benefit from a direct service into the centre of Manchester than want to change for Liverpool?

I honestly think that the majority of passengers will be better off.

I honestly don't know enough about loadings, journey patterns and final destinations on the Oldham line to know how many people benefit opposed to how many people lose out.

For instance, I imagine the university centre in Oldham mainly has local students but if it turns out a number of them come from Halifax then all of a sudden those students need 2 season tickets instead of 1.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder what fares are going to be like from Milnrow to Manchester via Rochdale? In somewhere like Germany changing from tram to mainline train wouldn't be an issue but the UK (and GM in particular) has a very poor record on fare integration between tram and National Rail. I hope I am wrong but I highly suspect that changing at Rochdale will be prohibitively expensive for most so most Milnrow to Manchester passengers will end up going via Oldham even if it takes longer.

If you look at the Altrincham line.

Altrincham to Manchester by train is cheaper than Altrincham to Manchester by tram i.e. the less attractive frequency gets the cheaper ticket.

However, Knutsford to Manchester is cheaper if you change to the tram at Altrincham than if you remain on the train via Stockport. Again the less attractive option is cheaper because northbound you have the change and southbound you also have to arrive in Altrincham in good time for the train as the trams don't run to a strict timetable.

There aren't any interchangeable tickets so if you want to do Altrincham-Stockport then Stockport-Manchester and returning via Sale then you can't buy a return ticket that covers you.

On the other hand the Eccles line doesn't have any tickets that allow you to change between Metrolink and heavy rail at Eccles. Maybe this is because the Eccles Metrolink line didn't replace a heavy rail line.

 

[WatcherZero]

There aren't any interchangeable tickets so if you want to do Altrincham-Stockport then Stockport-Manchester and returning via Sale then you can't buy a return ticket that covers you.

On the other hand the Eccles line doesn't have any tickets that allow you to change between Metrolink and heavy rail at Eccles. Maybe this is because the Eccles Metrolink line didn't replace a heavy rail line.

Daysaver Tram+Train £7.20, save almost a fiver versus split ticketing.

 

[radamfi]

Daysaver Tram+Train £7.20, save almost a fiver versus split ticketing.

The situation isn't so bad off-peak, because of the existence of Daysavers, but AFAIK there are no joint Metrolink/National Rail season tickets or peak Metrolink/National Rail Daysavers. That's pretty insane IMO. Perhaps the argument is that trains and trams are already overcrowded so there is no point encouraging more peak usage.

I see no reason why GM can't have a London-style Travelcard zone system (at least for rail and tram) and it should be easier than in London because TfGM have more control of National Rail in GM than TfL do in London.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is the reason most rail daysavers/rovers cant be used in peaks, to seperate leisure users from commuters.

Northern Dayranger, Time restrictions
Rail Rover tickets are available for travel on trains timed to depart after 0845 Mondays to Fridays and at any time weekends and Bank Holidays.

You can use the +bus portion of daysavers in the morning peak.

I see no reason why GM can't have a London-style Travelcard zone system (at least for rail and tram) and it should be easier than in London because TfGM have more control of National Rail in GM than TfL do in London.

Travelcard is coming, at the moment the tram zones are roughly every 3 stops or so and theres 3 rail zones, North East, North West and Central, South (though I may be misremembering, long time since ive bought a rail ticket from a Metrolink ticket machine).

Why do you think Manchester has more control of its rail network than London? London Overground is awarded by TFl isnt it while TfGM is only (at the moment) a co-signatory of the Northern franchise.

 

[radamfi]

Why do you think Manchester has more control of its rail network than London? London Overground is awarded by TFl isnt it while TfGM is only (at the moment) a co-signatory of the Northern franchise.

Overground is a relatively recent exception and has fully integrated fares with the tube. Tube+train fares are different from normal tube or normal train fares, although rail fares are now harmonised across all TOCs. However, the Travelcard has been going for many years, during most of which time BR and the TOCs decided their own fares in London, yet still participated in the zonal Travelcard scheme. GMPTE and TfGM have set rail fares within GM for a long time.

TfL had to negotiate the train only and train+tube fare levels with the TOCs, other than London Overground. However, TfGM can unilaterally say that Milnrow and Rochdale are in zone 5, the city centre is zone 1, and set single and season ticket fares from zone 5-1. That way it would cost the same to go from Milnrow to Manchester via Rochdale or Oldham.

 

[northwichcat]

Daysaver Tram+Train £7.20, save almost a fiver versus split ticketing.

Off Peak Single Altrincham-Manchester by train £3.50*, by tram it's £4.00. That's 30p more than the Day Saver not £5 more and the £7.20 quoted is double the Off-Peak Day Return fare for Altrincham-Manchester via Stockport so hardly competitive.

* Valid for break in journey at Stockport.

On a route like Manchester-Liverpool there are two routes with various operators and an Any Permitted ticket allowing you to do, for instance, Manchester to Newton-le-Willows, Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool and then return on a direct train via Warrington.

 

[WatcherZero]

Off Peak Single Altrincham-Manchester by train £3.50*, by tram it's £4.00. That's 30p more than the Day Saver not £5 more and the £7.20 quoted is double the Off-Peak Day Return fare for Altrincham-Manchester via Stockport so hardly competitive.

But thats not what you asked for, you asked for a Altrincham-Stockport, Stockport-Manchester, Manchester-Altrincham via sale journey. And that ticket would give you a break anywhere or any spur of the moment alteration to your journey to anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On a route like Manchester-Liverpool there are two routes with various operators and an Any Permitted ticket allowing you to do, for instance, Manchester to Newton-le-Willows, Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool and then return on a direct train via Warrington.

Do you really believe thats the same? The tocs get paid from the same pot so doesnt matter how you make the journey they just get a proportional cut of the capacity they provide along it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GMPTE and TfGM have set rail fares within GM for a long time.

TfL had to negotiate the train only and train+tube fare levels with the TOCs, other than London Overground. However, TfGM can unilaterally say that Milnrow and Rochdale are in zone 5, the city centre is zone 1, and set single and season ticket fares from zone 5-1. That way it would cost the same to go from Milnrow to Manchester via Rochdale or Oldham.

Not really, the multi-modal tickets are set by an independent company collectivley owned by the Tocs and bus operators, the fares are set via subsidy. Northern will tell them the price they will charge for a journey and TfGM will tell them if they subsidise it to get it lower through the Rail Grant. The difference is TfL uses all of the £1bn rail grant they get from Government every year to subsidise Underground prices, without that money the tube prices would be huge. They also have the advantage that as they franchise buses rather than commercial operators they can control all bus fares and force multi-operator ticketing whereas the PTE's cant. Any multi-operator ticketing in a PTE area is entirely voluntary by the operator.

 

[northwichcat]

But thats not what you asked for, you asked for a Altrincham-Stockport, Stockport-Manchester, Manchester-Altrincham via sale journey. And that ticket would give you a break anywhere or any spur of the moment alteration to your journey to anywhere.

I said you can't get a return ticket covering Altrincham-Stockport then Stockport-Manchester and returning via Sale. If there was heavy rail on both routes a simple "Any Permitted" ticket would usually be available that would not be double the price of the price of a return for one route.

Do you really believe thats the same? The tocs get paid from the same pot so doesnt matter how you make the journey they just get a proportional cut of the capacity they provide along it.

Why can't it be the same? For your suggested tram+train ticket Metrolink will get a share of the revenue and local rail operators will get a share of the revenue. An Altrincham-Manchester return ticket valid via both Stockport and Sale would be much simpler than that as it would restrict you to two lines so less variables come in to play.

 

[WatcherZero]

If they did that the rail companies would lose a huge amount of revenue Altrincham-Stockport-Manchester. However the tickets you suggest have been available for decades on Sundays because the rail companies didnt run many sunday services and so heavy rail tickets to Altrincham are valid on the Met.

 

[PR1Berske]

To move away from this little tussle, the Oldham line opens with some pre-6am trams on the 11th June.
Source - Skyscraper City.

 

[northwichcat]

If they did that the rail companies would lose a huge amount of revenue Altrincham-Stockport-Manchester.

An interchangeable ticket does not have to mean in place of the current tickets.

You could have (in ascending order of cost)
Altrincham to Manchester (National Rail only)
Altrincham to Manchester (Metrolink only)
Altrincham to Manchester (National Rail or Metrolink)

Then only people wanting the more flexible ticket would purchase it.

The idea could then be extended to stations between Altrincham and Chester, again in ascending order of cost:

Mid Cheshire to Manchester (Route: Metrolink)
Mid Cheshire to Manchester (Route: Stockport)
Mid Cheshire to Manchester (National Rail or Metrolink)

With the current timetable where some peak trains terminate at Stockport but others continuing to Piccadilly the last could prove very popular and a lot of people moan about the lack of one. The revenue for that ticket on Altrincham to Manchester should be 50% to Metrolink and 50% to National Rail as if you weren't planning to use both you wouldn't buy it.

However the tickets you suggest have been available for decades on Sundays because the rail companies didnt run many sunday services and so heavy rail tickets to Altrincham are valid on the Met.

That was introduced in Sundays only in 1992 because GMPTE cut it's rail budget and wanted to cut back some Sunday services to do that so what was a 2 hourly Manchester-Chester service became a 3 hourly Altrincham-Chester service.

The 2 hourly service Manchester service was reinstated in December 2008 but is still not part of the Northern franchise commitment meaning it can be withdrawn at any timetable change before May 2014 and the new operator doesn't have to include a 2 hourly service in the May 2014 timetable change, which is possibly why the ticketing flexibility hasn't been lifted. At present it makes financial sense for Northern to run a 2 hourly service as the amount of revenue collected on Sundays on the Mid-Cheshire line has increased by around 400% since the change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To move away from this little tussle, the Oldham line opens with some pre-6am trams on the 11th June.
Source - Skyscraper City.

No new official date on the Metrolink website so that may be a 'hopefully it opens on' date. Hopefully it's not a repeat of the MediaCity spur or the Chorlton line when things go wrong straight away.

 

[PR1Berske]

From the site:

The ATCO-CIF timetables that TfGM publish now include Oldham on the MET3 service:

ZD2012061120991231Mondays to Fridays                                                    
ZSGM_MET3_MET3ST WERBURGH'S ROAD - MANCHESTER - OLDHAM          
ZAN9400ZZMASTW1St Werburgh's Road                              P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMACHO1Chorlton                                        P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAFIR1Firswood                                        P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMATRA1Trafford Bar                                    P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMACRN1Cornbrook                                       P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAGMX1Deansgate - Castlefield                         P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMASTP2St Peter's Square                               P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAMKT2Market Street                                   P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMASHU1Shudehill                                       P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAVIC2Victoria Station                                P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAMON1Monsall                                         P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMACTP1Central Park                                    P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMANEW1Newton Heath & Moston                           P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAFWH1Failsworth                                      P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAHOL1Hollinwood                                      P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMASCH1South Chadderton                                P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAFRE1Freehold                                        P1W0T1
ZAN9400ZZMAOMP1Oldham Mumps                                    P1W0T1

For people who can't read ATCO-CIF, the first line includes the start date of 20120611 (11th June 2012!)

The first scheduled service from St Werburgh's Road is 0508, from Oldham is 0522 - there's no partial journeys scheduled from Victoria or such towards Oldham as far as I can see (although a number of Picc services towards St Werburgh's does exist)

 

[northwichcat]

I thought Oldham was supposed to get a Piccadilly Metrolink service or is it going to be a 12 minute Oldham-Chorlton service to start with a 12 minute Oldham-Piccadilly service being added in later?

 

[WatcherZero]

Will be a 12 minute St Werburghs-Oldham Mumps service initially extended to Shaw and East Dids eventually, then a 12 minute Rochdale-? service will open giving 6 minute frequency upto Shaw as in the old days when half of trains turned there.

 

[martin2345uk]

I thought Oldham was supposed to get a Piccadilly Metrolink service or is it going to be a 12 minute Oldham-Chorlton service to start with a 12 minute Oldham-Piccadilly service being added in later?

It was never made public what the service patterns would be previously...

 

[northwichcat]

With Rochdale set to get a rail Airport service as part of the Northern Hub, which will be much faster than Metrolink, would there be more sense in having Airport-Bury services once the Rochdale-Airport train service is introduced?

 

[martin2345uk]

I don't think anyone yet knows where the Airport Line will run to...?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think anyone yet knows where the Airport Line will run to...?

No-one? If that's really the case TfGM need to create a planning department.

Isn't St Werburgh's Road only a temporary terminus until the line is extended, with St Werburgh's Road services mentioned as going to Oldham in the above post?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes its a temporary terminus until East Dids and the Airport open.

And on top of that you have the Trafford line breaking off after Pomona, funding likley to be announced in next couple of months from the City Deal.

 

[futureA]

No-one? If that's really the case TfGM need to create a planning department.

The precise service patterns of the airport line have not been made public yet is what he means.

 

[radamfi]

I don't think it matters which line goes to the airport as it will be a simple change at either Victoria or St Peter's Square if you aren't on a direct tram to the airport. However, it will be undoubtedly be quicker for passengers from the Bury, Rochdale and Ashton lines to go to Piccadilly (or Victoria once the Ordsall Curve is open) and get the train.

 

[snail]

I personally find the way a few people post about Metrolink both on here and elsewhere on the web a bit like they are a TfGM/Metrolink employee who are being paid to promote Metrolink.

Yay, the "do you work for the company" gambit (normally employed when someone is running out of ideas)! Do I win a prize?