We're waiting for the Oldham Loop...

[Greybeard33]

Its more to do with trialling track share and the rail-wheel contact than signalling.

Metrolink uses the standard Network Rail wheel profile with a modified flangeback (a legacy from originally converting heavy rail lines without track replacement). Does Supertram use a normal tram wheel profile?

 

[northwichcat]

(a) I think we've been here before, but isn't there a canal in the way? - the Trafford Park spur would be the wrong side of the canal for the Salford side of the Quays

A spur off the Altrincham line is also an option.

(b) which bus goes from Eccles to Salford Quays? I can't find one on Traveline, the nearest single route stop (33) is about 1/2 a mile away.

As radamfi has said that's because there's now a tram every 12 minutes. A bus can do exactly the same stops in the same amount of time, as they have proved when they run replacement bus services for Metrolink.
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Manchester has had several tram extensions built/planned since it opened, but still there's complaints about the fact that it hasn't had enough extensions.

The majority of Metrolink has been created by converting heavy rail lines, not creating a load of new links.

Trams don't link to the universities and hospitals to the city centre which would seem logical links or Middleton which would be another logical link, but they run from Bury to Altrincham, which is a very long distance for a tram service.

 

[snail]

A spur off the Altrincham line is also an option.

Eh? Are you thinking of another bridge?

there's now a tram every 12 minutes. A bus can do exactly the same stops in the same amount of time, as they have proved when they run replacement bus services for Metrolink.

Buses were around before Metrolink. Salford Quays existed before Metrolink. There were no direct bus services from Eccles to Salford Quays, or from Salford Quays to Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Eh? Are you thinking of another bridge?

There's already road bridges. You do realise that trams are designed to run on routes with a significant amount of road running don't you?

Buses were around before Metrolink. Salford Quays existed before Metrolink. There were no direct bus services from Eccles to Salford Quays, or from Salford Quays to Manchester.

And your point is? GMPTE obviously decided it was viable for Eccles to have a public transport link to Salford Quays. I imagine if they decided it was too expensive to build the tram line between Salford Quays and Eccles they would have looked at bus options instead, exactly as they have done with Leigh.

 

[tbtc]

The majority of Metrolink has been created by converting heavy rail lines, not creating a load of new links.

Trams don't link to the universities and hospitals to the city centre which would seem logical links or Middleton which would be another logical link, but they run from Bury to Altrincham, which is a very long distance for a tram service.

And how many people actually use a service from Bury all the way to Altricham? That's a bit like me complaining about the fact that the London Underground is unsuitable for people going from Heathrow to Cockfosters.

Yes, there are plenty places in Greater Manchester that a tram *could* serve, but the same could be said of Sheffield (no trams to the Hallamshire Hospital or Northern General, no trams to busy suburbs like Woodseats, no trams anywhere near the University Residences at Ranmoor etc) - and just look at how little of the West Midlands the Midlands Metro serves!

The difference is that Manchester has had the money to expand their trams, which means that they are linking them to places that they think are priorities.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, there are plenty places in Greater Manchester that a tram *could* serve, but the same could be said of Sheffield.

When all the current four lines in progress are completed, the only areas of the ten constituent bodies that go to make up "Greater Manchester" will be Wigan and Bolton in the north-western corner and Stockport in the south-eastern corner.

Seven out the ten areas will be served in one way or another by the Manchester Metrolink system.

 

[northwichcat]

And how many people actually use a service from Bury all the way to Altricham? That's a bit like me complaining about the fact that the London Underground is unsuitable for people going from Heathrow to Cockfosters.

I don't know about Bury but Altrincham-Salford and Altrincham-Bolton flows via Northern Rail get a fair number of passengers.

no trams anywhere near the University Residences at Ranmoor etc

Sheffield trams do at least link Sheffield University to the station.

 

[PR1Berske]

Can we stop biting at jcollins? No answer given satisfies his stance, and in modern internet language, that's considered trolling.

It's very frustrating to see new posts here which continue back-and-forth between a virulent anti-Metrolink poster batting away responses from everyone else.

 

[142094]

Its more to do with trialling track share and the rail-wheel contact than signalling. T&W has had track sharing with freight for years through an absolute possession system.

Do you mean Tyne and Wear Metro (T&W)? The Metro hasn't shared lines with freight for many years barring when the Sunderland extension was opened in 2002.

 

[WatcherZero]

There was the Sunderland-Pelaw section which had regular freight and before that they used to operate occasional freight trains using a 20 minute possession. When the freight train was on the tracks all Metro trains had to be stationary.

 

[northwichcat]

Can we stop biting at jcollins? No answer given satisfies his stance, and in modern internet language, that's considered trolling.

My objection to Metrolink is simply that it's not a real alternative for a S-Bahn service. I have no objection to trams replacing city centre buses, in fact I would prefer clearly marked tram stops and maps over bus routes. As we see in Germany S-Bahn and trams work well together, in England where we have a frequent rail service e.g. Merseyrail or trams e.g. Metrolink it's not as good.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well if you went to somewhere like Melbourne the trams are like the buses in this country, running slow criss crossing of the city for blanket coverage of all destinations, thats what trams traditionally do. What we have in this country is more of a light rail/tram hybrid, rapid transit through the suburbs then serving the city centre itself rather than depositing you on the edge of it. What the Germans, French and Londoners used to refer to as pre-metro operations. Build a surface line, built up the patronage then bury it later.

 

[142094]

There was the Sunderland-Pelaw section which had regular freight and before that they used to operate occasional freight trains using a 20 minute possession. When the freight train was on the tracks all Metro trains had to be stationary.

The Sunderland - Pelaw section is fully signalled to NR standards, and has been since the Metro was extended, so no problem there with freight or the track. The only other section of the line to see freight was Benton Junction to Callerton - I haven't heard anyone say that they used to operate a 20 minute posession, although I haven't heard anyone say they didn't, so not sure about this.

 

[PR1Berske]

My objection to Metrolink is simply that it's not a real alternative for a S-Bahn service. I have no objection to trams replacing city centre buses, in fact I would prefer clearly marked tram stops and maps over bus routes. As we see in Germany S-Bahn and trams work well together, in England where we have a frequent rail service e.g. Merseyrail or trams e.g. Metrolink it's not as good.

It's laudable that you have such lofty ambitions for Britain, but honestly, it is getting a bit....not tedious as such........repetitive, maybe, to read through pages of back and forth on here

Nobody, not least you alone, will convert Metrolink to a German S-Bahn service by discussing things on the Internet.

I like this thread a lot, it's just these last few pages have felt as though I'm waiting for my parents to stop a heated discussion with friends at a party before I can ask to use the toilet.

 

[Class377/5]

When all the current four lines in progress are completed, the only areas of the ten constituent bodies that go to make up "Greater Manchester" will be Wigan and Bolton in the north-western corner and Stockport in the south-eastern corner.

Seven out the ten areas will be served in one way or another by the Manchester Metrolink system.

And interestingly Wigan and Bolton could do well with a full Northern Hub and Stockport is eying up an extension if the Didsbury line for better connections to that part if Manchester (it already has a city center link and wants better cross links now).

It's laudable that you have such lofty ambitions for Britain, but honestly, it is getting a bit....not tedious as such........repetitive, maybe, to read through pages of back and forth on here

Nobody, not least you alone, will convert Metrolink to a German S-Bahn service by discussing things on the Internet.

I like this thread a lot, it's just these last few pages have felt as though I'm waiting for my parents to stop a heated discussion with friends at a party before I can ask to use the toilet.

Just take a breath and either ignore him or snow him under with facts (he dies like them, they don't agree with his options).

You'll be much happier for it.

 

[northwichcat]

Nobody, not least you alone, will convert Metrolink to a German S-Bahn service by discussing things on the Internet.

I didn't say convert Metrolink to S-Bahn - I said trams and S-Bahn could work together in Manchester.

Just take a breath and either ignore him or snow him under with facts (he dies like them, they don't agree with his options).

Do you mean like the fact that the Metrolink was supposed to be instead of the Ordsall Chord or a city centre rail tunnel, which at the time the government refused to fund. However, the government now sees the Ordsall Chord as an imperative part of the Northern Hub i.e. Metrolink can't do the job of the Ordsall Chord as what's required is beyond Metrolink's limitations?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

rapid transit through the suburbs then serving the city centre itself rather than depositing you on the edge of it.

The S-Bahn systems I've used give you a choice of city centre stops. In Berlin even the Regio services serve 3 different city centre stations, which are much better distributed around the city than Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate in Manchester.

 

[Rail Bus]

Do you have evidence for this?

How many of those would prefer to walk/bus from Oxford Road or Piccadilly instead of using the tram directly to St Peters Sq, Piccadilly Gardens, Market St, Shudehill or Victoria?

My evidence is what I see everyday

Also the fact that I have to stand everyday from Altrincham to St Peters Square, indeed the tram is full and standing when it leaves Altrincham and very few get off before St Peters Square

It is the same on the way back, M5000 full and standing at 19.25 last night all the way to Altrincham - and this is the norm
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I personally find the way a few people post about Metrolink both on here and elsewhere on the web a bit like they are a TfGM/Metrolink employee who are being paid to promote Metrolink.

No-one can have a 100% positive opinion of a transport system all the time as things always go wrong but some people seem to post like Metrolink suits everyone and nothing ever goes wrong or if it does it would have been much worse if it was Northern Rail, which the real users of Metrolink are quick to disagree with.

I've had more severe delays using the Metrolink line between Altrincham and Manchester than the heavy rail line between Knutsford and Altrincham and this is despite the fact that:
1. The heavy rail is a lot less frequent so one cancelled service automatically means a long wait.
2. I use Metrolink a lot less often than heavy rail and still get caught up in more disruption on Metrolink.

Is it any surprise that I can't agree with the people who go on about Metrolink being perfect?

Brilliant post - sums up my feelings exactly (and those of many other regular passengers)

There is a lot of apathy towards Metrolink in Altrincham these days

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is a lot of apathy towards Metrolink in Altrincham these days

The operators of the Metrolink system must be aware of this problem in the Altrincham area. Can anyone suggest what they could attempt, noting the stock they have, to improve matters? (Sensible answers only, please.)

The new improvements to the interchange bus station will leave Altrincham with heavy rail, Metrolink and bus services to meet the needs of the travelling public, which is a far better co-ordinated situation than many other towns have. Macclesfield has its railway station in the centre of the town area near to many road connections, but the new bus station was built away from the area near to the railway station and astride the top of a steep hill.

 

[snail]

My evidence is what I see everyday

Also the fact that I have to stand everyday from Altrincham to St Peters Square, indeed the tram is full and standing when it leaves Altrincham and very few get off before St Peters Square

It is the same on the way back, M5000 full and standing at 19.25 last night all the way to Altrincham - and this is the norm

Sorry, does that mean you are agreeing with me - that people prefer the tram because it gets them into the centre, not to a station on the periphery - or disagreeing? Would you rather make it less convenient for people so fewer travel and you get a seat?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a lot of apathy towards Metrolink in Altrincham these days

apathy or antipathy? apathy=lack of interest. Doesn't sound that way to me.

 

[Rail Bus]

Sorry, does that mean you are agreeing with me - that people prefer the tram because it gets them into the centre, not to a station on the periphery - or disagreeing? Would you rather make it less convenient for people so fewer travel and you get a seat?

No, I don't agree with you - people don't prefer the tram at all

The reason why I have to stand all the way to work and stand all the way home (despite not usually travelling in the peak) is because the trams do not have enough capacity, not big enough, not enough seats (particularly M5000)

Incidentally I used to live in Crosby and commute into Liverpool by Merseyrail from Blundellsands & Crosby, A much busier service than Metrolink but always got my seat! I wonder why that was? Maybe something to do with the 6 carriages?

CAPACITY
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

apathy or antipathy? apathy=lack of interest. Doesn't sound that way to me.

I meant apathy = a state of indifference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apathy

 

[tbtc]

Do you mean like the fact that the Metrolink was supposed to be instead of the Ordsall Chord or a city centre rail tunnel, which at the time the government refused to fund. However, the government now sees the Ordsall Chord as an imperative part of the Northern Hub i.e. Metrolink can't do the job of the Ordsall Chord as what's required is beyond Metrolink's limitations?

Just a guess, but maybe demand has increased over the last twenty years and therefore a second "link" can now be justified?

There's a lot more to the Ordsall Curve than *just* a link from Pic to Vic (in terms of freeing up platform space at Piccadilly, avoiding conflicting movements now that Piccadilly is at capacity etc).

The operators of the Metrolink system must be aware of this problem in the Altrincham area. Can anyone suggest what they could attempt, noting the stock they have, to improve matters? (Sensible answers only, please.)

How many marks are there for this question?

 

[northwichcat]

Just a guess, but maybe demand has increased over the last twenty years and therefore a second "link" can now be justified? There's a lot more to the Ordsall Curve than *just* a link from Pic to Vic

That's sort of what I'm getting at. Metrolink was the cheap alternative and it only does part of the job and the original more expensive solution needs to be deployed as well now that demand for heavy rail services is through the roof.

(in terms of freeing up platform space at Piccadilly, avoiding conflicting movements now that Piccadilly is at capacity etc).

The Ordsall Chord alone would just move the congestion from Ardwick a mile west, it needs to be alongside platforms 15 and 16 at Piccadilly and extra capacity at Slade Lane Junction (as proposed in the Northern Hub plans.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The operators of the Metrolink system must be aware of this problem in the Altrincham area. Can anyone suggest what they could attempt, noting the stock they have, to improve matters? (Sensible answers only, please.)

I've suggested a solution to the Navigation Road bottle neck already.

As for the capacity problem they need to do what they promised and put double T68s on the Altrincham-Bury services and ensure Altrincham-Piccadilly services are T68s or double T68s. If they want to use M5000s on the Altrincham line then order a new double length version with a higher seating capacity as and when they withdraw the set of T68s.

Is there any reason why you couldn't have 6 or 8 car trams on the Altrincham and Bury lines, which have the longer platforms or would the city centre platforms not be able to cope?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any reason why you couldn't have 6 or 8 car trams on the Altrincham and Bury lines, which have the longer platforms or would the city centre platforms not be able to cope?

Your second part of your answer, unfortunately answers the first part of your answer.Not much use loading well the 6 or 8 car units at Altrincham, Timperley, Whitefield and Bury unless the passengers contained therein can all decamp at a city-centre platform long enough for this to happen.

Was there not a similar heavy rail problem at Salford Crescent with trains over a certain number of carriages in length being subject to this same problem..

 

[tbtc]

That's sort of what I'm getting at. Metrolink was the cheap alternative and it only does part of the job and the original more expensive solution needs to be deployed as well now that demand for heavy rail services is through the roof

You're missing the point of what I'm saying - Metrolink was a suitable way of solving the problem twenty years ago - the fact that passenger numbers have significantly risen across the UK (not just in parts of Manchester) since then and additional capacity is now needed does not mean that it was necessarily the wrong decision at the time.

At least Manchester got a tram to link its two main stations - I'm sure Birmingham and Glasgow would have appreciated that kind of investment.

 

[snail]

No, I don't agree with you - people don't prefer the tram at all

The reason why I have to stand all the way to work and stand all the way home (despite not usually travelling in the peak) is because the trams do not have enough capacity, not big enough, not enough seats (particularly M5000)

Are you boarding at Piccadilly? I'm surprised they are filling up there so late in the evening. If you didn't have trams you would have no choice but to get on at Piccadilly, Oxford Rd or Deansgate (like I do when travelling home from Manchester - I can get a seat by standing in the right place at Piccadilly but little chance at Oxford Rd, so it's standing only to Bolton if I'm lucky).

It sounds to me like you are taking advantage of the convenience of trams and complaining they haven't the capacity of trains. If it's so bad why aren't you getting the train from Piccadilly to Altrincham? Cake and eating it comes to mind. :roll:

 

[PR1Berske]

It's very easy to look back 20 years and say "Metrolink isn't fit for 2012 based on its original design"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's very easy to look back 20 years and say "Metrolink isn't fit for 2012 based on its original design"

Indeed, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[radamfi]

If I had unlimited funds and could go back in time I would have chosen the Picc Vic tunnel (i.e. S-Bahn) over Metrolink for the former BR lines. Merseyside and Glasgow have got S-Bahns. Only transport geeks outside the respective localities know about the Merseyrail and Glasgow cross city tunnels. But Manchester is famous for trams. The trams have become an icon of Manchester, if not THE icon. Yes, trams are sexy, and that is probably why GM is so committed to them.

 

[Rail Bus]

Are you boarding at Piccadilly? I'm surprised they are filling up there so late in the evening. If you didn't have trams you would have no choice but to get on at Piccadilly, Oxford Rd or Deansgate (like I do when travelling home from Manchester - I can get a seat by standing in the right place at Piccadilly but little chance at Oxford Rd, so it's standing only to Bolton if I'm lucky).

It sounds to me like you are taking advantage of the convenience of trams and complaining they haven't the capacity of trains. If it's so bad why aren't you getting the train from Piccadilly to Altrincham? Cake and eating it comes to mind. :roll:

Taking advantage of the convenience of trams? I have used the Altrincham - Manchester route via Sale for the best part of 40 years so well before Metrolink came along

Back then we had convenience and capacity - this is why I see the Metrolink as a backwards step for the route

Incidentally snail would you be happy to see the heavy rail route from Bolton converted to Metrolink?

 

[Class377/5]

Metrolink can't do the job of the Ordsall Chord as what's required is beyond Metrolink's limitations?

Are you trying to troll? Comparing light rail to heavy rail is stupid at best, misleading for sure.

Metrolink isn't trying to be a railway but a metro. The two are very different different. Especially as heavy rail also uses long distance services.