Welsh announcements

[PHILIPE]

Different words even between North and South.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, I'm sure that he is serious - and what's more, he's completely right!

During one of my previous jobs (with a Government department in Cardiff), I had to arrange for stickers saying "Switch Off Lights" (or something similar) to be printed. These were translated into Welsh by a Government department in London, and the order was made and delivered. If I remember correctly, we had about 10,000 of the things.

We then had to distribute them to our contacts all over Wales and ask them to pass them on to companies, public buildings and other places as appropriate. This went okay for South, Mid and West Wales, but our contacts in North Wales said they couldn't use them as the translation wasn't correct for their area. the translation only differed by (I think) one letter, but it didn't make any difference - they wouldn't use them!

I realise that this sounds like an episode from "Yes Minister", but it's true!

Even North Wales has significant internal differences.
Our night school book was the "Fersiwn y Gogledd", but we were told many times that this was actually the Gwynedd version and North East Wales was different (in expression more than spelling/vocabulary).
It's even different between the Clwyd and Alyn valleys!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Are you serious?

To those who responded to this; you have missed my point completely. Spoken English is far more diverse than Welsh. People from Tyneside; Birmingham; Plymouth; Humberside and Poplar, to name but a few areas, sound as if they come from different planets, let alone the same country, although they are all speaking their own version of English.

Of course, there are regional differences within Wales but nowhere near as much as in England.

 

[tbtc]

And (opens other can of worms) don't forget the language is spelled/voiced differently in different parts of Wales (more than in English).

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm sure that he is serious - and what's more, he's completely right!

During one of my previous jobs (with a Government department in Cardiff), I had to arrange for stickers saying "Switch Off Lights" (or something similar) to be printed. These were translated into Welsh by a Government department in London, and the order was made and delivered. If I remember correctly, we had about 10,000 of the things.

We then had to distribute them to our contacts all over Wales and ask them to pass them on to companies, public buildings and other places as appropriate. This went okay for South, Mid and West Wales, but our contacts in North Wales said they couldn't use them as the translation wasn't correct for their area. the translation only differed by (I think) one letter, but it didn't make any difference - they wouldn't use them!

I realise that this sounds like an episode from "Yes Minister", but it's true!

To those who responded to this; you have missed my point completely. Spoken English is far more diverse than Welsh. People from Tyneside; Birmingham; Plymouth; Humberside and Poplar, to name but a few areas, sound as if they come from different planets, let alone the same country, although they are all speaking their own version of English.

Of course, there are regional differences within Wales but nowhere near as much as in England.

I find these local differences very interesting, the subtle vowel sounds that are the difference between Newcastle/ Sunderland that those from outside the area wouldn't notice.

There are obviously big differences in English accents (no wonder, given the population and size when compared to Wales), same goes for Scotland. However I think that something like "Switch Off Lights" would be the same from Berwick on Tweed to Penzance - written English is fairly uniform - even if local dialect/ vowels make the spoken language sound quite different.

Choice of words is another little local difference (we in Sheffield are "dee-dars" in the eyes of those in Barnsley etc because of the way that Sheffielders retain the old English use of "thee" and "thou"). However anyone would still spell words the same way. Interesting that in Wales it's not just the accents that differ but also the spelling of them.

 

[johnnychips]

Exactly tbtc, you have emphasised the difference between a dialect and an accent. A dialect has its own words, and English dialects are diminishing rapidly as the population that uses them are growing older; I doubt anyone under 40 uses 'thee' or calls men 'love' in Sheff any more, and 'gennels' in Doncaster are replaced by 'alleys' and 'spice' by 'sweets'. The accents continue though.

That's true of nouns. However, you will still hear 'I were, you was' a lot among the younger generations.

Absolutely no idea if a 'standard' Welsh vocabulary/grammar is evolving though.

 

[Squaddie]

I think that something like "Switch Off Lights" would be the same from Berwick on Tweed to Penzance...

And it is in Wales, too. I'd like some evidence from EbbwJunction1 to back up his story.

 

[merlodlliw]

Different words even between North and South.

and even more localized, as the Mold correspondent points out, up here we have
Rhos WX & Ruthin differences in meanings.

Friend of mine from Rhos WX had some difficulty understanding(Welsh) from another friend from Cardiganshire while chatting at Erddig last August
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Yes, I'm sure that he is serious - and what's more, he's completely right!

During one of my previous jobs (with a Government department in Cardiff), I had to arrange for stickers saying "Switch Off Lights" (or something similar) to be printed. These were translated into Welsh by a Government department in London, and the order was made and delivered. If I remember correctly, we had about 10,000 of the things.

We then had to distribute them to our contacts all over Wales and ask them to pass them on to companies, public buildings and other places as appropriate. This went okay for South, Mid and West Wales, but our contacts in North Wales said they couldn't use them as the translation wasn't correct for their area. the translation only differed by (I think) one letter, but it didn't make any difference - they wouldn't use them!

Not surprised at all, I have known so called professional translators get it wrong

 

[EbbwJunction1]

And it is in Wales, too. I'd like some evidence from EbbwJunction1 to back up his story.

I'm afraid that you'll have to take my word for it.

I assure you that it is a totally genuine occurance that happened to me, and I have not made it up. It's possible that some of the stickers are still in use in South Wales, but we couldn't use them in North Wales at all.

I accept that it's also possible that things are different now, but I'm talking about the mid 1980's.

 

[dlball]

The number of Welsh speakers do not rise as quickly as the influx of foreign born people.
There are proberably more foreign born people living in Britain today than Welsh born.

 

[krus_aragon]

We absolutely should accept this. To me the entire thing seems political - even the Welsh signage. Nobody requires these signs in these languages to be able to make safe and convenient use of the services on offer. They are about politics, which is not something the railway should be involved with.

Should we consider taking the politics out of road signs in Wales and making those monolingual as well?

The trouble is, even if you view providing such a service on the railways as being politically tainted, withdrawing such a service is a similarly political action.

And just so as to throw a curveball out into the discussion: privatisation arguably reduced the provision of Welsh language services on the railways. The Welsh Language Act 1993 obliged all public bodies to provide their services in both English and Welsh, but then the railways were privatised out of public ownership soon afterwards.

 

[Requeststop]

Just passed through Swansea on my West Wales bash. (if interested postings in the Trip Reports and Nostalgia section) Station announcements in Welsh (male) and English (female). Train announcements on ATW service to Milford Haven in English only!

 

[krus_aragon]

I would disagree slightly about the practical reason part. There is still a sizeable chunk of the population whose FIRST language, i.e. the language they THINK in, is Welsh.

*waves*

Here's one, for starters!

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. My former boss was one. He instinctively thought in Welsh and 'translated' in his head to English. Only occasionally did he slip up, just as well considering his senior position within the organisation!

 

[krus_aragon]

You are right about the voices, but not the times.
Welsh has a convoluted slightly-French way of telling the time (equivalent to "five and twenty minutes past/to" etc.
In numbers, counting in twenties comes into it.
Not at all straightforward, epecially with something like "1747".
No doubt an expert will be along shortly with a primer!
A

It's called the vigesimal system. Common daily usage in Welsh has largely switched to simplified 'base-10' numbers (one-ten-one=11, five-ten-seven=57) and numbers and maths are taught as such at primary schools. The old vingesimal system is still exclusively used for dates (days of the month) and predominantly for times, and sometimes in colloquial use as well (especially ugain(20) )

As for the fact that the 24 hour clock isn't used in the Welsh announcements, I'm not aware that its use has any precedence in Welsh, so rather than translate the English system it seems they used the form that would be most familiar to Welsh speakers. No point having Welsh announcements that Welsh speakers don't understand!

And (opens other can of worms) don't forget the language is spelled/voiced differently in different parts of Wales (more than in English).

Welsh dialects across Wales vary as much as dialects of English do throughout Britain (IMHO). The issue of different spellings stems from the fact that formal written Welsh and common everyday (vulgar) Welsh are very much diverged, even more so than formal English is from rural dialects. Some of this is because Welsh has only recently had any true official use in daily life. For centuries the main form of written Welsh people would encounter was the 1588 translation of the Bible (the only edition available until 1988) and its influence was strong right to the early 20th century. As a result the style of formal written Welsh still 'lags' behind day-to-day usage. For informal purposes people often write in their natural day-to-day language, which is of course different depending where in the country you were raised. So if you want to write a poster in Welsh, sometimes you have to decide whether you want it to be formal (and perhaps regarded as too aloof) or colloquial, and risk sounding like a cockney in Merseyside to some people.

Note that fluent/first-language Welsh speakers are rarely unable to understand another dialect, but the odd word might be new to them. But then again, before I'd been to Derby, I'd never heard the term pyclet used for crumpets!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Not surprised at all, I have known so called professional translators get it wrong

And mistakes occur in other parts of the process. I remember this one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7702913.stm

E-mail error ends up on road sign
When officials asked for the Welsh translation of a road sign, they thought the reply was what they needed.
Unfortunately, the e-mail response to Swansea council said in Welsh: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated".
So that was what went up under the English version which barred lorries from a road near a supermarket.

 

[6Gman]

*waves*

Here's one, for starters!

Fi hefyd!

 

[krus_aragon]

Indeed. My former boss was one. He instinctively thought in Welsh and 'translated' in his head to English. Only occasionally did he slip up, just as well considering his senior position within the organisation!

Literally translating idioms into English is something I sometimes do by mistake. Then people stare at me when I say "it's closed for rain", or talk about "paining the world green".

 

[PHILIPE]

And mistakes occur in other parts of the process. I remember this one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7702913.stm

There is a little roadway from the church to the street in Aberdare with road instructions painted bilingually on the road surface. Up until a couple of years ago, the Welsh Version said:-
"Trowch i'r chwith". and the English version "Turn Right"
If one had recognised this they would have turned the wrong way into a one way street. It took about two years and several calls for the Council to change this. The English version was correct. So eventually the Welsh became "I'r dde".

 

[Butts]

I had a Day Trip to Cardiff today (on a plane obviously) and the announcements are in Welsh/English there as well. (CWL)

Popped into Cardiff Central and noticed the departure boards altenate between English and Welsh.

Just broadening it out a bit I visited The Doctor Who Exhibition in Porth Teigr and all the displays had English and Welsh text with equal prominence. Quite frankly in Cardiff this is crazy with the proportion of natives that can actually appreciate the gesture.

In The National Museum of Wales in some cases The Welsh text was in the prime position with the English almost secondary.

Of course we all know Cardiff was virtually given it's economic importance thanks to a Scotsman namely The Marquess of Bute who was to Cardiff what The Duke of Westminster is/was to London.

He must be turning in his grave - god knows how much the pointless duplication costs. As someone earlier pointed out, how many Welsh speakers don't understand English

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I had a Day Trip to Cardiff today (on a plane obviously) and the announcements are in Welsh/English there as well. (CWL)

Popped into Cardiff Central and noticed the departure boards altenate between English and Welsh.

Just broadening it out a bit I visited The Doctor Who Exhibition in Porth Teigr and all the displays had English and Welsh text with equal prominence. Quite frankly in Cardiff this is crazy with the proportion of natives that can actually appreciate the gesture.

Has it crossed your mind that people from all over Wales visit Cardiff every day? I fail to understand why you and others get so hot under the collar where the Welsh language is concerned. It is not as if you were being deprived of your beloved English. For centuries Welsh speakers were treated with contempt by the state and all of its agencies and you and others seem to wish that that should be the way forward. Shame on you.

 

[Butts]

Has it crossed your mind that people from all over Wales visit Cardiff every day? I fail to understand why you and others get so hot under the collar where the Welsh language is concerned. It is not as if you were being deprived of your beloved English. For centuries Welsh speakers were treated with contempt by the state and all of its agencies and you and others seem to wish that that should be the way forward. Shame on you.

I'm not getting hot under the collar just wondering how much all the duplication costs.

If they were really serious about it Welsh would be compulsory in all Schools which I believe it is not. Surely that would do more to sustain the language and then I could accept all the doubling up.

Can you give me a figure for how many fluent Welsh Speakers there are in Wales today, who can both write and speak Welsh to the same standard they can English ?

Individual figure for Cardiff would be appreciated. I worked in Swansea, Cardiff.Blackwood and Wrexham and the number of employees who were fluent in Welsh, I could count on one hand

 

[sefyllian]

According to the 2011 census, there were 562,016 Welsh-speakers in Wales (19%) and 36,735 in Cardiff (11%).

Worth noting that the figures are heavily skewed towards younger people in places like Cardiff, as Welsh has indeed been compulsory in schools up to GCSE age for the past few years.

In comparison to the cost of actually producing a sign, the cost of providing the text in both languages is negligible. (I used to work in print and design).

Regardless, why should I as a Welsh speaker, in my own country, in which Welsh is one of the official languages, have to read everything in my second language? It's just showing a pretty basic level of respect to address people in their own language.

Saying everyone can understand English is rather like saying there's no need to legalise gay marriage as all gay men can marry women. Well yes, they can... (and probably did, in the past)... but that just slightly misses the point.

 

[tbtc]

For centuries Welsh speakers were treated with contempt by the state and all of its agencies

Again, we are getting history lessons that are of no relevance to the question of why we get Welsh announcements (which 20% of the Welsh population understand) before we get English announcements (which 95% of the Welsh population understand).

Would that be the case if it were not for politicians interfering?

What makes the 5% of Welsh-only speakers more important than the 80% of English-only speakers?

(I've so far found it difficult to find the splits in the 15% who are bi-lingual to know which they would consider their "first language" - some of this number may be genuinley bi-lingual, some may have a strong first preference but be able to understand the other language if required)
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Saying everyone can understand English is rather like saying there's no need to legalise gay marriage as all gay men can marry women. Well yes, they can... (and probably did, in the past)... but that just slightly misses the point.

That's a very strange reading of the situation

 

[sefyllian]

Would that be the case if it were not for politicians interfering?

Out of interest, what politicians are interfering here though? As I recall, Arriva made a commitment to provide a Welsh-language service in their franchise bid; there was no legal obligation for them to do so. Like a lot of companies they see it as good customer service, presumably. Arriva themselves chose to put Welsh first, as far as I can see.

No-ones saying Welsh speakers are "more important", but clearly one language has to come first, and in such situations it's quite common to put the minority language first, as it helps those who are less confident or perhaps learning the language. Bear in mind that everyone gets taught basic Welsh till age 16 these day, so far more people will understand stuff like numbers, times and placenames than the official language figures show (which count fluent or mostly fluent people).

That's a very strange reading of the situation

I'm being a bit facetious, obviously

But I do see them along the same lines. I can speak English, but prefer to speak Welsh. I can marry a woman, but would prefer to marry a man. Respecting people's differences on these things is what makes a civilised society.

Yes, things would be simpler if everyone just spoke English (and had exclusively heterosexual marriages!). But life would also be a lot less interesting. Vive la différence.

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest, what politicians are interfering here though? As I recall, Arriva made a commitment to provide a Welsh-language service in their franchise bid; there was no legal obligation for them to do so. Like a lot of companies they see it as good customer service, presumably. Arriva themselves chose to put Welsh first, as far as I can see.

No-ones saying Welsh speakers are "more important", but clearly one language has to come first, and in such situations it's quite common to put the minority language first, as it helps those who are less confident or perhaps learning the language. Bear in mind that everyone gets taught basic Welsh till age 16 these day, so far more people will understand stuff like numbers, times and placenames than the official language figures show (which count fluent or mostly fluent people).



I'm being a bit facetious, obviously

But I do see them along the same lines. I can speak English, but prefer to speak Welsh. I can marry a woman, but would prefer to marry a man. Respecting people's differences on these things is what makes a civilised society.

Yes, things would be simpler if everyone just spoke English (and had exclusively heterosexual marriages!). But life would also be a lot less interesting. Vive la différence.

So you think that we should have announcements in the minority language first to help people to learn it?

 

[Butts]

According to the 2011 census, there were 562,016 Welsh-speakers in Wales (19%) and 36,735 in Cardiff (11%).

Worth noting that the figures are heavily skewed towards younger people in places like Cardiff, as Welsh has indeed been compulsory in schools up to GCSE age for the past few years.

In that case I retract my previous comments, I didn't realise it was compulsory up till 16 - a case of use it or lose it !!!

Is it compulsory in the land of the "white settler" ie Pembrokeshire - ie where the accents are more home counties than Welsh

 

[Hyphen]

So you think that we should have announcements in the minority language first to help people to learn it?

I'm an Englishman living and working in Wales and I find it refreshing to have Welsh-first announcements. It's certainly taught me Welsh numbers!

It's also great when you start to listen to and understand/comprehend them - it means when there's platform alterations (for example) you can be ahead of the pack, most of whom ignore the Welsh announcements and wait for the English

 

[jones_bangor]

how many Welsh speakers don't understand English

That is a very simplistic view, it's the political will in Wales to preserve the language. It's only a few chip on the shoulder "I went into the pub and they all spoke about me in Welsh" / "They only turned me down for the job 'cos I don't speak Welsh" types that have a problem.

I note you're from Scotland - great to see the proliferation of Gaelic on the Scotrail Network signs.

 

[tbtc]

it's the political will in Wales to preserve the language

Yup - pure politics

I note you're from Scotland - great to see the proliferation of Gaelic on the Scotrail Network signs.

It's a load of patronising nonsense to have Gaelic signage in places like Airdrie - Gaelic was never the main language - pure tokenism

 

[Greenback]

In that case I retract my previous comments, I didn't realise it was compulsory up till 16 - a case of use it or lose it !!!

Is it compulsory in the land of the "white settler" ie Pembrokeshire - ie where the accents are more home counties than Welsh

As far as I know it is compulsory everywhere in Wales. i now regret the fact that I didn't have to elarn the language for more than two tears when I was at school.

Many of the people who have moved to Wales are more supportive of the language than the people born here:

I'm an Englishman living and working in Wales and I find it refreshing to have Welsh-first announcements. It's certainly taught me Welsh numbers!

It's also great when you start to listen to and understand/comprehend them - it means when there's platform alterations (for example) you can be ahead of the pack, most of whom ignore the Welsh announcements and wait for the English

Yesterday, I overheard a lady with a strong English accent explaining to someone why she was learning Welsh. She wasn't looking forward to her exams, but she said she felt it was the right thing to do being as she was living in Wales. Further evidence of the fact that visitors and people who move to Wales are more interested in speaking Welsh than some of the locals!

I'm afraid I can't agree with those who think that Welsh politicians are not entitled to promote the language, and if that includes announcements in Welsh being prioritised, I support it.