Welsh announcements

[Goatboy]

I would like there to be station signs in English and Cornish at all of Cornwalls
stations.

Why? Everyone can read and understand the English signs in Cornwall. There is not a single person in Cornwall who speaks fluent Cornish but cannot understand a word of English. Therefore it troubles me that you'd actually want operators to divert funds from other much needed areas to something that seems wholly unneccesary.

 

[Temple Meads]

Why? Everyone can read and understand the English signs in Cornwall. There is not a single person in Cornwall who speaks fluent Cornish but cannot understand a word of English. Therefore it troubles me that you'd actually want operators to divert funds from other much needed areas to something that seems wholly unneccesary.

Agreed, there's nothing wrong with station signs in Cornish at some stations (it's a nice touch of humourous flamboyance, that also makes a connection to Cornwall's past), but to do the same with every sign just isn't required.

 

[Requeststop]

Why? Everyone can read and understand the English signs in Cornwall. There is not a single person in Cornwall who speaks fluent Cornish but cannot understand a word of English. Therefore it troubles me that you'd actually want operators to divert funds from other much needed areas to something that seems wholly unneccesary.

I suppose you'd like Lancashire stations such as "Hall I' Th' Wood" and "Besses o' th' Barn" be written in proper English????????? Understandable by each and everyone in the nation?
I'll let you answer the replies from the Coronation Street fans!

Signs give a distinction to an area or region, that is historically or culturally different. It directs people to those differences and makes them attractive to many if not to you. Makes them ask why it is not the same as other places in the country. Adding a few changes to signs is not going to make a change in the service on a line disappear, or a coach being taken off a service. In fact it may well add to the service. Look at other threads about Devon (spits on the floor) and Cornwall services which are expanding and are screaming for more investment. What other needed funds are to be diverted from for a few (200 or so) signs that would impede the development of rail services in Cornwall?

 

[Goatboy]

I suppose you'd like Lancashire stations such as "Hall I' Th' Wood" and "Besses o' th' Barn" be written in proper English????????? Understandable by each and everyone in the nation?

I have no idea where they are or why the signs are like that so I can't comment.

Signs give a distinction to an area or region, that is historically or culturally different. It directs people to those differences and makes them attractive to many if not to you.

No, signs on railway stations are there to provide information to the travelling public. They only need to be written in a second language if there is likely to be a significant footfall of people who would not be reasonably expected to speak the primary language.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have no idea where they are or why the signs are like that so I can't comment.

Hall-i'-th'-Wood is between Bolton and Blackburn and Besses-o'-th'-Barn is on the Metrolink line between Manchester and Bury; both are pronounced exactly as written however, unlike some other English examples! They are themselves though the only two examples in all of Northern England of railway (either light or heavy) stations that use such local dialectal features however.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

No, signs on railway stations are there to provide information to the travelling public. They only need to be written in a second language if there is likely to be a significant footfall of people who would not be reasonably expected to speak the primary language.

Disagree - the Gaelic additions to the stations signs up here at first caused amusement and/or bemusement to the locals but the new secondary names confused nobody. Tourists quite like them and it was probably quite a good idea.

Don't think it will sway the vote in the referendum though, if that was part of the intention.

 

[tbtc]

We regularly have threads complaining about the "unnecessary" number of announcements and signs on the UK rail network, but yet people want announcements in Cornish?

Adding a few changes to signs is not going to make a change in the service on a line disappear, or a coach being taken off a service

There was an example given earlier on this thread where passengers missed a train at Newport because the announcement about a platform change was made in a "minority" language first and took so long that the train had left before the announcement was made in the "majority" language.

But it keeps some politicians and nationalists happy, so I suppose it's okay.

Why? Everyone can read and understand the English signs in Cornwall. There is not a single person in Cornwall who speaks fluent Cornish but cannot understand a word of English. Therefore it troubles me that you'd actually want operators to divert funds from other much needed areas to something that seems wholly unneccesary.

For most of the stations that we are talking about the signs are about as relevant/ necessary as the signs in Latin at Wallsend station - they're something for tourists to take pictures of but of little practical need.

The problem is that politicians jump on the "if Wales has got it then so can we" bandwagon, regardless of *need*.

(the Gaelic signs at Central Belt places like Airdrie really were silly though - absolute tokenism)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Out of interest why are there signs at Wallsend in Latin?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I think it was on the Today programme on Radio 4 that I heard that Polish was now the 2nd language most spoken in the UK these days, to which a comment was e-mailed to the programme that it was all well and good to have languages such as Polish and Welsh spoken and used in our nation, but learning the languages would be fine if they occaisionally used vowels!

Which just goes to show the insularity of monoglot English speakers. Of course the Poles have vowels and Welsh isn't short of them either. In fact, Welsh has two more than English: a, e, i, o, u, w and y.

 

[PHILIPE]

They should have Polish signs and announcements at Boston where there is a well documented population

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest why are there signs at Wallsend in Latin?

As it's the eastern end of Hadrian's Wall, they put some bi-lingual signs up to try to promote the fact: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisww/4097153929/

At least they're being honest about the tourist angle and not pretending that bi-lingual signs* are there to cater for the native Latin speakers who are tired of having their culture downtrodden etc

(* - I doubt the announcements are bi-lingual, though am happy to be proved wrong )

 

[merlodlliw]

They should have Polish signs and announcements at Boston where there is a well documented population

The largest Polish Population in North Wales(probably all Wales) is in the Wrexham area, A Polish Hospital was established in the 1940s at Penley,Wrexham by Sir Winston Churchill.

 

[kieron]

At least they're being honest about the tourist angle and not pretending that bi-lingual signs* are there to cater for the native Latin speakers who are tired of having their culture downtrodden etc

While that is there for the tourists, there are actually people who consider the Celtic languages to be part of their culture. Saying that putting things in those languages is there for the tourists might be seen as akin to saying that the events put on for the Queen's diamond jubilee were there for the tourists. It helps with tourism, of course, but it does more than that.

Incidentally, the Whitchurch outside Denbigh is also called Elgwyswen. There's just a church and a farm there, though.

 

[nowananorack]

There are no automated station announcements in North Wales, they are in English only by the station announcer as far as I recall.

The automated bilingual announcements are in South Wales only.....

Are you sure?
Whenever I've been on a Cambrian coast station, Harlech, Tywyn, Barmouth, Aberystwyth, Porthmadog, Mac (cannot rememeber the spelling in full), Dovey Junction, the pre-recorded announcements, including the bag security announcments, have been bi-lingual.

 

[merlodlliw]

Hall-i'-th'-Wood is between Bolton and Blackburn and Besses-o'-th'-Barn is on the Metrolink line between Manchester and Bury; both are pronounced exactly as written however, unlike some other English examples! They are themselves though the only two examples in all of Northern England of railway (either light or heavy) stations that use such local dialectal features however.

Now what about BRYN Station,Wigan Rd,Wigan, Should this be translated HILL
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you sure?
Whenever I've been on a Cambrian coast station, Harlech, Tywyn, Barmouth, Aberystwyth, Porthmadog, Mac (cannot rememeber the spelling in full), Dovey Junction, the pre-recorded announcements, including the bag security announcments, have been bi-lingual.

I am sure Mr Jones meant on the North Wales (HHD/CTR) line, However Aberyswyth & Dovey Junction are in Mid Wales

 

[tbtc]

While that is there for the tourists, there are actually people who consider the Celtic languages to be part of their culture. Saying that putting things in those languages is there for the tourists might be seen as akin to saying that the events put on for the Queen's diamond jubilee were there for the tourists. It helps with tourism, of course, but it does more than that

How much "culture" do people want on railway signs/ announcements though?

We've now got to the "me too" stage of tokenism where there's demand for GCSEs in UlsterScots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18983567)

The strategy also includes plans to increase the number of Ulster Scots programmes on television and the development of a "dedicated Ulster Scots language, heritage and culture radio station"

...the Belfast Agreement it says that the Ulster Scots language, culture and heritage has equal status to that of Irish

Now, if we carry on down the slippery slope between language and dialect, a lot more people in Scotland speak (Lowland) Scots than those in the UK who speak Ulster Scots, Cornish or Welsh. Should we have signs for Embra' and Glasgae for those who want their culture represented?

Where do we draw the line? Or should we just accept that the railway is no place for politics and concentrate on railway issues?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Next thing we know, we'll have them awful brummies wanting signs in their accent. I've no objection to the welsh or scots lingo on signage as it promoted nationalism, yet Latin, cornish and other versions are taking it too far

 

[kieron]

Now what about BRYN Station,Wigan Rd,Wigan, Should this be translated HILL

No; it should just be called Ashton-in-Makerfield. They renamed Farnworth, after all.

 

[Goatboy]

Where do we draw the line? Or should we just accept that the railway is no place for politics and concentrate on railway issues?

We absolutely should accept this. To me the entire thing seems political - even the Welsh signage. Nobody requires these signs in these languages to be able to make safe and convenient use of the services on offer. They are about politics, which is not something the railway should be involved with.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

We absolutely should accept this. To me the entire thing seems political - even the Welsh signage. They are about politics, which is not something the railway should be involved with.

Wrong, it is about simple courtesy. the only 'politics' involved is the same old stale Imperialist attitude that decrees 'English good'; anything else bad'.

The Welsh language is indigenous to these islands and has been around longer than English. Perhaps you should go and demonstrate at stations where Urdu is in evidence or perhaps that would be too political.

 

[Prairie_5542]

Wrong, it is about simple courtesy. the only 'politics' involved is the same old stale Imperialist attitude that decrees 'English good'; anything else bad'.

The Welsh language is indigenous to these islands and has been around longer than English. Perhaps you should go and demonstrate at stations where Urdu is in evidence or perhaps that would be too political.

It is Wales, you expect Welsh place names and signs. If yo uwent to France you would get French signs etc. It defines the area. The Celts (Welsh, Irish, Scottish) were in Britain well before anybody else. It is the Anglo-Saxons who invaded and dispersed them. Just look on a map it is evident. Read the history books.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Prairie_5542;1363343]It is Wales, you expect Welsh place names and signs. If you went to France you would get French signs etc. It defines the area. The Celts (Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Cornish) were in Britain well before anybody else. It is the Anglo-Saxons who invaded from East Anglia and dispersed them. Just look on a map it is evident. Read the history books

 

[tbtc]

Wrong, it is about simple courtesy. the only 'politics' involved is the same old stale Imperialist attitude that decrees 'English good'; anything else bad'.

The Welsh language is indigenous to these islands and has been around longer than English

So we should have announcements in Welsh, Cornish, Gaelic, Ulster Scots, "Lowland Scots" etc at train stations? Plus practical modern languages like Polish, Urdu etc (which a larger percentage of speakers have as a "first language")?

By bringing "Imperialism" into it, it suggests that you think this is a political issue. For me, its about providing signs/ announcements that people can simply understand.

The fact that people have been speaking Welsh in these islands for longer than English is fine, but the railway isn't there to pander to political minorities - it needs to provide simple understandable information.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is Wales, you expect Welsh place names and signs. If yo uwent to France you would get French signs etc

In France the vast majority of people have French as a first language. In Wales, the vast majority of people do not have Welsh as a first language. Big difference.

For example, (despite all of the public money spent on bi-lingual things and teaching Welsh at school) the recent census stated that only 11.1% of the population of Cardiff said they could speak Welsh (note - not "speak Welsh as a first language", just "they could speak Welsh).

I can't imagine only 11.1% of Parisians being able to speak French.

The Celts (Welsh, Irish, Scottish) were in Britain well before anybody else. It is the Anglo-Saxons who invaded and dispersed them. Just look on a map it is evident. Read the history books

What's that got to do with the railway though? Should we have announcements in every celtic tongue?

 

[ThreeLineWhip]

I'm suprised "our man" Alex has not introduced announcements in Gaelic at Stations in Scotland - notwithstanding the fact less than 2% of the population would actually understand them. Most of them live in areas where there are no Railways

Quite similar to Wales, most Gaelic speakers are on the West Coast and Islands thereabouts.

I was interested to note 41% of Irish people can understand the mother tongue, do Irish Railways have announcements in Irish ? (Eire)

Yes, all announcements are bilingual in Ireland with Irish first.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

The fact that people have been speaking Welsh in these islands for longer than English is fine, but the railway isn't there to pander to political minorities -

There it is again, 'Political'. Anyone would think that to speak Welsh you have to subscribe to a particular political belief. Just look at the make up of the Assembly and you will find that all of the parties have Welsh speakers. The Labour party has plenty of Welsh speakers including the present First Minister and each of his predecessors. Conversely, look at the membership of Plaid Cymru, which has a large majority of English speakers in the south Wales valleys.

If there is any 'politics' it comes from those who simply dislike the language and there are plenty of those in Wales.

 

[Butts]

There it is again, 'Political'. Anyone would think that to speak Welsh you have to subscribe to a particular political belief. Just look at the make up of the Assembly and you will find that all of the parties have Welsh speakers. The Labour party has plenty of Welsh speakers including the present First Minister and each of his predecessors. Conversely, look at the membership of Plaid Cymru, which has a large majority of English speakers in the south Wales valleys.

If there is any 'politics' it comes from those who simply dislike the language and there are plenty of those in Wales.

In Scotland perhaps we should have signs in Welsh in addition to Gaelic and English, as large parts of the Country used to speak Welsh at one time

 

[tbtc]

There it is again, 'Political'. Anyone would think that to speak Welsh you have to subscribe to a particular political belief. Just look at the make up of the Assembly and you will find that all of the parties have Welsh speakers. The Labour party has plenty of Welsh speakers including the present First Minister and each of his predecessors. Conversely, look at the membership of Plaid Cymru, which has a large majority of English speakers in the south Wales valleys.

If there is any 'politics' it comes from those who simply dislike the language and there are plenty of those in Wales.

You were the one who brought up "Imperialism".

Not really surprised that there's a majority of English speakers in Plaid's Valley based membership - since so few people can speak Welsh (7.8% of people in Blaenau Gwent said at the last census that they could speak Welsh - not as a first language, just *any* Welsh).

Being Welsh and being able to speak Welsh are two different circles on a Venn Diagram. Maybe some people think I'm not a proper Scot as I can't speak Gaelic?

Maybe Trenitalia should have all signage in Latin as well as Italian?

 

[jones_bangor]

You were the one who brought up "Imperialism".

Not really surprised that there's a majority of English speakers in Plaid's Valley based membership - since so few people can speak Welsh (7.8% of people in Blaenau Gwent said at the last census that they could speak Welsh - not as a first language, just *any* Welsh).

Being Welsh and being able to speak Welsh are two different circles on a Venn Diagram. Maybe some people think I'm not a proper Scot as I can't speak Gaelic?

Maybe Trenitalia should have all signage in Latin as well as Italian?

Latin is still in common use in Italy outside the clerical community?

Welsh is a "living" language in everyday use throughout Wales, maybe not so much in Blaenau Gwent I admit.....

 

[island]

Yes, all announcements are bilingual in Ireland with Irish first.

That's not correct. Only on-train announcements are in Irish, and not even all of them. Announcements in stations are English only, and on the DART the only Irish is repeating the station names (only) in Irish after the English.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Latin is still in common use in Italy outside the clerical community?

Welsh is a "living" language in everyday use throughout Wales, maybe not so much in Blaenau Gwent I admit.....

Perhaps it is time for a little education for our friends across the border as well as some of those blinkered within. The survival of the Welsh Language is nothing short of remarkable given its proximity to such a large and powerful neighbour and the stance taken by England against the language.

The Act detailing the absorption of Wales into the English state under Henry VIII was the first to refer to the Welsh language:

'The people of the same dominion have and do daily use a speche nothing like ne consonaunt to the naturall mother tongue used within this Realme, and laid down that English should be the only language of the courts of Wales, and that the use of Welsh would debar one from administrative office. Its explicit intention was: utterly to extirpe alle and singular the sinister usages and customs of Wales'.

These provisions were symbolically repealed by the 1993 Welsh Language Act.

Perhaps if the Normans had taken the same attitude, the majority of the English people would now be speaking a version of Norman French.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps it is time for a little education for our friends across the border as well as some of those blinkered within. The survival of the Welsh Language is nothing short of remarkable given its proximity to such a large and powerful neighbour and the stance taken by England against the language.

The Act detailing the absorption of Wales into the English state under Henry VIII was the first to refer to the Welsh language:

'The people of the same dominion have and do daily use a speche nothing like ne consonaunt to the naturall mother tongue used within this Realme, and laid down that English should be the only language of the courts of Wales, and that the use of Welsh would debar one from administrative office. Its explicit intention was: utterly to extirpe alle and singular the sinister usages and customs of Wales'.

These provisions were symbolically repealed by the 1993 Welsh Language Act.

Perhaps if the Normans had taken the same attitude, the majority of the English people would now be speaking a version of Norman French.

History is history.

In the modern world, most people in Wales are unable to speak Welsh (despite the large amount of money spent on encouraging it in recent years). Almost 90%of people in Cardiff do not speak Welsh?

The railway isn't a political tool for people to play with.