Welsh announcements

[PR1Berske]

History is history.

In the modern world, most people in Wales are unable to speak Welsh (despite the large amount of money spent on encouraging it in recent years). Almost 90%of people in Cardiff do not speak Welsh?

The railway isn't a political tool for people to play with.

The 2011 Census shows that, whilst it has fallen, there's still a significant population across Wales where Welsh is an active, living language. It is only right and proper that the active, living language of a country is used in its capital city.

As an aside, I suggest that the Cambrian Coast Line, to name but one, was kept open purely by politics: the two cannot always be separated.

 

[D1009]

History is history.

In the modern world, most people in Wales are unable to speak Welsh (despite the large amount of money spent on encouraging it in recent years). Almost 90%of people in Cardiff do not speak Welsh?

The railway isn't a political tool for people to play with.

It's not being used as a political tool for people to play with. The elected representatives of the Welsh people in the Welsh Assembly Government have a policy that the Welsh language should be promoted. I reckon most Welsh people support that, as well as quite a few non Welsh people including me. It's just that in people's enthusiasm to do that, sometimes they get it wrong. I don't have a problem with bi-lingual station signs or road signs for that matter, but when the policy is applied to announcements at stations like Newport or Cardiff Central it can cause the sort of problems referred to earlier.

 

[jones_bangor]

History is history.

In the modern world, most people in Wales are unable to speak Welsh (despite the large amount of money spent on encouraging it in recent years). Almost 90%of people in Cardiff do not speak Welsh?

The railway isn't a political tool for people to play with.

I simply don't get why you say this is a political issue - the 4 parties in Wales all support the language, not so sure about the fringe parties (if it's even on the agenda).

There are, numerically, more Welsh speakers in the South Wales.

 

[Greenback]

The Welsh language has been given equal status in Wales as a result of legislation. That is a fact, regardless of whether anyone thinks it is right or wrong.

It is a matter for the Welsh people to decide, and in my experience the majority of non fluent Welsh speakers are happy to support the language in this manner.

It is also possible that many people who may class themselves as non Welsh speakers are, in fact, able to speak and understand the language, perhaps in a limited fashion and possibly without really being conscious of it.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

History is history.

In the modern world, most people in Wales are unable to speak Welsh (despite the large amount of money spent on encouraging it in recent years). Almost 90%of people in Cardiff do not speak Welsh?

The railway isn't a political tool for people to play with.

...and what do you mean by that? Historical events from many years ago shape our lives today, no one can be exempt from that, even if they like to think they are. Welsh culture including the language is very important, as is English culture and language but the former is more important than the latter here in Wales...

...and back to railways and the subject matter, from my visits to Cardiff I would say that the announcements are long and frequent in both languages, but I would imagine that even non-Welsh speakers ( who live locally) would be able to understand the simple announcements that are in Welsh

 

[oglord]

I would imagine that even non-Welsh speakers ( who live locally) would be able to understand the simple announcements that are in Welsh

That is an incorrect assertion.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

That is an incorrect assertion.

Maybe! Perhaps I should have included the word 'some'?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

...and back to railways and the subject matter, from my visits to Cardiff I would say that the announcements are long and frequent in both languages, but I would imagine that even non-Welsh speakers ( who live locally) would be able to understand the simple announcements that are in Welsh

I have been taking particular notice, over the last few days, as to how people react to the announcements at Bridgend, a predominantly English speaking area. As soon as the announcement is made, in Welsh, local people begin moving to take up their positions. It is quite evident that they know exactly where Castell Nedd; Casnewydd and Abertawe etc. are.

One of the annoying things about railway travel, in recent years, is the sheer volume of PA announcements, most of which are really unnecessary.

Do we really need to be told to use the handrails on stairs? (In English only).

Is it essential to keep on reminding us that?:

'All of our stations and trains are No Smoking Areas' when there are signs all over the place to tell us what we already know and have got used to over the last few years.

Then we have:

'Unattended items of luggage might be removed, without warning, by the Security Services'.

Bi-lingual announcements are a fact of life and another fact of life is that you cannot please everyone.

By the way, the reason for English only announcements at Cardiff Queen Street is the sheer number of trains and passengers using such a cramped site where all Up trains i.e. Rhondda Valley; Merthyr; Aberdare; Rhymney and Coryton all use the same platform in rapid succession and not always in the correct order. It was a compromise made to save time.

 

[merlodlliw]

One of the annoying things about railway travel, in recent years, is the sheer volume of PA announcements, most of which are really unnecessary.

Do we really need to be told to use the handrails on stairs? (In English only).

Is it essential to keep on reminding us that?:

'All of our stations and trains are No Smoking Areas' when there are signs all over the place to tell us what we already know and have got used to over the last few years.

Then we have:

'Unattended items of luggage might be removed, without warning, by the Security Services'.

I agree with every word, pure noise pollution,Myself and many others just switch off,absolute no need whatsoever for junk announcements, just give the train.

 

[PR1Berske]

That is an incorrect assertion.

Could you prove your assertion?

 

[PHILIPE]

Perhaps the people start moving on thre Welsh is that they have heard i9t so often and got used to it. Pleasure to be able to speak it though. Following the Census result a speaker in the Heartlands says he prefers to use English because he was more confident using it and another said that he had forgotten it.. I have tried to speak to some people in Welsh but they have preferred to use English even though fluent Welsh speakers. The Welsh Government can't force them to use it.
Re announcemnts, a fairly recent ATW recorded announcement on trains.says "Will Customers pleace place litter in the bins provided on trains and stations". After hearing it on approach to Cardiff Central, I spent ages on the station looking for a bin (I'm being sarcastic there perhaps). The paranoia still exists at some stations, Bristol Temple Meads another. If somebody wants to bomb a station they would easily find somewhere to place it, bins or no bins.

 

[Trelluest]

I have been taking particular notice, over the last few days, as to how people react to the announcements at Bridgend, a predominantly English speaking area. As soon as the announcement is made, in Welsh, local people begin moving to take up their positions. It is quite evident that they know exactly where Castell Nedd; Casnewydd and Abertawe etc. are.

One of the annoying things about railway travel, in recent years, is the sheer volume of PA announcements, most of which are really unnecessary.

Do we really need to be told to use the handrails on stairs? (In English only).

Is it essential to keep on reminding us that?:

'All of our stations and trains are No Smoking Areas' when there are signs all over the place to tell us what we already know and have got used to over the last few years.

Then we have:

'Unattended items of luggage might be removed, without warning, by the Security Services'.

Bi-lingual announcements are a fact of life and another fact of life is that you cannot please everyone.

By the way, the reason for English only announcements at Cardiff Queen Street is the sheer number of trains and passengers using such a cramped site where all Up trains i.e. Rhondda Valley; Merthyr; Aberdare; Rhymney and Coryton all use the same platform in rapid succession and not always in the correct order. It was a compromise made to save time.

I couldn't agree more - this has even extended on board the ATW trains themselves. If I hear the "Welcome aboard" woman one more time between Cardiff and Pontypridd I will go beserk. All I want to do is sit on the train and read quietly, which is sadly impossible due to the number of announcements.

 

[maniacmartin]

What percentage of welsh speakers can understand english?
What percentage of english speakers can understand welsh?

My assumptions on the answers to these questions lead me to believe that welsh announcements should be abolished. The more that is being announced, the more likely it is that information that passengers need is lost amongst the noise or the train doors will be shut before the announcement is finished. (The same as the constant security, platforms may be slippery and other distracting announcements)

Are the bi-lingual languages announced in 2 voices (ie one male, one female). I find that that makes it easier to distinguish when one language ends and another begins.

Here in London, a light drizzle is announced as "inclement weather conditions" needing special care!

 

[island]

In my experience the Welsh announcements are made by a male voice and the English announcements by a female voice.

Apparently the Welsh announcements read times in the normal way, such as "twenty-five past two" instead of "fourteen twenty-five".

 

[tbtc]

It's not being used as a political tool for people to play with. The elected representatives of the Welsh people in the Welsh Assembly Government have a policy that the Welsh language should be promoted

That's a very important word there - promoted.

It's hard to get accurate figures, but it looks roughly like the splits are

• 95% can speak English
• 5% can't speak English
• 20% can speak Welsh
• 80% can't speak Welsh

(Am happy to be corrected, of course)

Now, in those circumstances, having announcements made in Welsh first and in English second seems to be something done for political reasons, not for practical reasons. I'd rather that the railway concentrated on communicating with the overwhelming majority of passengers first.

And if we continue like this then we'll see the "me too" demands of Cornish/ Ulster Scots etc (and Gaelic signs in places like Airdrie where it has no history, but it ticks a box for some well meaning political campaign...). We'll see demands that Lowland Scots is "Promoted"...

There's a big difference between "using Welsh" and "promoting Welsh". There's also a big difference between a place's culture and it's language (I'm a Scot, like 99% of Scots I can't speak Gaelic, I don't feel any less Scottish as a result)

**

http://blogs.walesonline.co.uk/devolution/2012/02/welsh-language-survey.html

Can you tell me if you speak Welsh at all?

• Yes, fluent: 8%
• Yes, not fluent: 9%
• No: 83%

Which language is spoken within your home usually?

• Welsh only: 4%
• Welsh mostly 1%
• Welsh and English equally 5%
• English mostly 14%
• English only 74%
• Other language spoken 1%

 

[jones_bangor]

That's a very important word there - promoted.

It's hard to get accurate figures, but it looks roughly like the splits are

• 95% can speak English
• 5% can't speak English
• 20% can speak Welsh
• 80% can't speak Welsh

(Am happy to be corrected, of course)

Now, in those circumstances, having announcements made in Welsh first and in English second seems to be something done for political reasons, not for practical reasons. I'd rather that the railway concentrated on communicating with the overwhelming majority of passengers first.

And if we continue like this then we'll see the "me too" demands of Cornish/ Ulster Scots etc (and Gaelic signs in places like Airdrie where it has no history, but it ticks a box for some well meaning political campaign...). We'll see demands that Lowland Scots is "Promoted"...

There's a big difference between "using Welsh" and "promoting Welsh". There's also a big difference between a place's culture and it's language (I'm a Scot, like 99% of Scots I can't speak Gaelic, I don't feel any less Scottish as a result)

**

http://blogs.walesonline.co.uk/devolution/2012/02/welsh-language-survey.html

Can you tell me if you speak Welsh at all?

• Yes, fluent: 8%
• Yes, not fluent: 9%
• No: 83%

Which language is spoken within your home usually?

• Welsh only: 4%
• Welsh mostly 1%
• Welsh and English equally 5%
• English mostly 14%
• English only 74%
• Other language spoken 1%

If you do not promote, and ensure everyday use, then the language will die. I don't think many people, apart from a few "chip on the shoulder" types, want that.

 

[Greenback]

I agree that Welsh should be promoted, and that this is a matter for the Welsh people (as in residents rather than nationality) and the Welsh government to ultimately decide upon.

I also agree that regular travellers do understand the Welsh announcements regardless of whether they actually speak the language.

 

[D1009]

Now, in those circumstances, having announcements made in Welsh first and in English second seems to be something done for political reasons, not for practical reasons. I'd rather that the railway concentrated on communicating with the overwhelming majority of passengers first.

And if we continue like this then we'll see the "me too" demands of Cornish/ Ulster Scots etc (and Gaelic signs in places like Airdrie where it has no history, but it ticks a box for some well meaning political campaign...). We'll see demands that Lowland Scots is "Promoted"...

There's a big difference between "using Welsh" and "promoting Welsh". There's also a big difference between a place's culture and it's language (I'm a Scot, like 99% of Scots I can't speak Gaelic, I don't feel any less Scottish as a result)

I think everyone would agree that none of it is done for practical reasons, but how can it be political if the pro Welsh language policy has not only got cross party support in the WAG, but also has the support of the majority of the people?

 

[Michael.Y]

I would disagree slightly about the practical reason part. There is still a sizeable chunk of the population whose FIRST language, i.e. the language they THINK in, is Welsh. Irrespective of whether they "understand" English or not, their language usage should be catered for as much as the population who are lucky enough to think in English.

 

[tbtc]

If you do not promote, and ensure everyday use, then the language will die. I don't think many people, apart from a few "chip on the shoulder" types, want that.

Fair enough, thanks for agreeing that the "tail wagging the dog" policy of giving Welsh priority isn't done for practical reasons.

Can you really say that Welsh is a "living language" if it needs this kind of government support though?

I think everyone would agree that none of it is done for practical reasons, but how can it be political if the pro Welsh language policy has not only got cross party support in the WAG, but also has the support of the majority of the people?

I say "political" because the idea of putting the "minority" language ahead of the "majority" language isn't done for practical reasons - the TOCs wouldn't do this unless they were forced to by legislation.

Personally I think that the railway should be there to deal with realities and not to promote any agendas (even if they have cross-party support). There are plenty of other places where such agendas can be forced upon people, rather than this idea of hoping that people will learn Welsh so that they can find out that their train has been delayed sooner than English speakers.

 

[johnnychips]

My head agrees with TBTC but my heart with Jones Bangor. It must be marvellous to grow up in a Welsh-speaking household and be fluent in two languages; but to live in a place where hardly anybody speaks it and be forced to try and learn it seems strange.

Hats off to the Belgian Railways, who don't do announcements in English, but just give them out in the language of the area the train happens to be passing through. Makes us English use our brains a bit.

Perhaps more consistency is required: areas west of Welshpool and Llandudno Junction, where much more Welsh is spoken should have all announcements on trains, platforms etc in Welsh and English - but then I suppose there may not be enough Welsh-speaking railway staff to do that.

 

[tbtc]

My head agrees with TBTC but my heart with Jones Bangor. It must be marvellous to grow up in a Welsh-speaking household and be fluent in two languages; but to live in a place where hardly anybody speaks it and be forced to try and learn it seems strange.

Hats off to the Belgian Railways, who don't do announcements in English, but just give them out in the language of the area the train happens to be passing through. Makes us English use our brains a bit.

Perhaps more consistency is required: areas west of Welshpool and Llandudno Junction, where much more Welsh is spoken should have all announcements on trains, platforms etc in Welsh and English - but then I suppose there may not be enough Welsh-speaking railway staff to do that.

Just to add, I'd have no problem with Welsh announcements first in Gwynedd or on Anglesey where the majority of people can understand Welsh (though we don't know how many have it as a first or second language), I just think that it's posturing to give it a preference over English in areas where only a minority of people can even understand Welsh.

The Belgian idea that you mention sounds sensible - tailor announcements to the place.

 

[Butts]

Just to add, I'd have no problem with Welsh announcements first in Gwynedd or on Anglesey where the majority of people can understand Welsh (though we don't know how many have it as a first or second language), I just think that it's posturing to give it a preference over English in areas where only a minority of people can even understand Welsh.

The Belgian idea that you mention sounds sensible - tailor announcements to the place.

Well in Switzerland all announcements onboard are in French, German and English (at least the automated ones) which is great for Tourists. Imagine what it's like for non English speakers visiting the UK

 

[merlodlliw]

Well in Switzerland all announcements onboard are in French, German and English (at least the automated ones) which is great for Tourists. Imagine what it's like for non English speakers visiting the UK

When I visited friends in Geneva, it was in Italian as well on the trains,

Most tourists understand English, its usually the second language.

 

[Gareth Marston]

When I visited friends in Geneva, it was in Italian as well on the trains,

Most tourists understand English, its usually the second language.

On the Cambrian Coast the busier times are all down to tourists who speak English anyway apart form the school trains where announcements in what ever language are superfluous as everybody does the journey 5 times a week and know where they are!

Aberystwyth has a lot of traffic associated with the Uni and its usually English and foreign people. The biggest announcement issue we have on the Cambrian is the reversing (at Shrewsbury) splitting portions for the coast and Aber and people being in the wrong portion. Bombarding people in Welsh is utterly pointless - the traincrew dont do it even the welsh speaking ones- its announcement in English on the tannoy on departure from Shrewsbury and full ticket check often accompanied shortly afterward by mass panic even though the train doesn't split for over an hour till it gets to Machynlleth. The more sensible conductors advise people theirs no need to move till after Newtown when the load thins out and you can move carriage more easily.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In my experience the Welsh announcements are made by a male voice and the English announcements by a female voice.

Apparently the Welsh announcements read times in the normal way, such as "twenty-five past two" instead of "fourteen twenty-five".

You are right about the voices, but not the times.
Welsh has a convoluted slightly-French way of telling the time (equivalent to "five and twenty minutes past/to" etc.
In numbers, counting in twenties comes into it.
Not at all straightforward, epecially with something like "1747".
No doubt an expert will be along shortly with a primer!
And (opens other can of worms) don't forget the language is spelled/voiced differently in different parts of Wales (more than in English).

 

[Squaddie]

Well in Switzerland all announcements onboard are in French, German and English (at least the automated ones) which is great for Tourists. Imagine what it's like for non English speakers visiting the UK

Automated announcements are in Romansch in the farthest-flung corners of the country - and I've never heard anyone suggest that they should not be, even though all Romansch speakers also speak fluent German. The more I travel, the more I believe that the resentment at hearing announcements in a language you don't understand is a peculiarly British thing.

Apparently the Welsh announcements read times in the normal way, such as "twenty-five past two" instead of "fourteen twenty-five".

In Welsh it is not possible to give the time using the 24-hour clock; it will always be said as "twenty five past two" (or, literally, "five minutes on twenty after two").

Not at all straightforward, epecially with something like "1747".

What's so difficult about "thirteen minutes before six"?

 

[PHILIPE]

You can distinguish am and pm in Welsh by adding:-
Y bore (in the morning)
Y prynhawn (in the afternoon
Y nos (at night)
Yr hwyr(in the evening) (

 

[Gwenllian2001]

And (opens other can of worms) don't forget the language is spelled/voiced differently in different parts of Wales (more than in English).

Are you serious?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

And (opens other can of worms) don't forget the language is spelled/voiced differently in different parts of Wales (more than in English).

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm sure that he is serious - and what's more, he's completely right!

During one of my previous jobs (with a Government department in Cardiff), I had to arrange for stickers saying "Switch Off Lights" (or something similar) to be printed. These were translated into Welsh by a Government department in London, and the order was made and delivered. If I remember correctly, we had about 10,000 of the things.

We then had to distribute them to our contacts all over Wales and ask them to pass them on to companies, public buildings and other places as appropriate. This went okay for South, Mid and West Wales, but our contacts in North Wales said they couldn't use them as the translation wasn't correct for their area. the translation only differed by (I think) one letter, but it didn't make any difference - they wouldn't use them!

I realise that this sounds like an episode from "Yes Minister", but it's true!