Ways for passengers to stop trains in emergency

[StephenHunter]

I’d presume Ms Agutter’s approach would be the one most members of the public would know to do.
At least those in a certain age group

Most people don't wear petticoats today. A Manchester United shirt could work as an alternative, but you might just look drunk.

 

[WesternLancer]

Most people don't wear petticoats today. A Manchester United shirt could work as an alternative, but you might just look drunk.

It’s a risk.

 

[dk1]

There is no way I’d be stopping my train from 100mph just because I saw an enthusiast on an embankment with two arms raised above their head. That’s if i even noticed them in the first place

 

[HHH19373]

Lots of stations have those non descript "emergency phone" that looks like signal post phones, where do they go?

The ones near me just have a keypad for you to dial any number.

 

[Lockwood]

It is possible in CAD to put an action plan against an incident type.

We have anonymised data from customers and a lot of the railway incident types have "Call Network Rail" as the first step of the action plan. CAD will also start prompting if actions on the plan have been left undone for a while.

I will caveat that the CAD system I am familiar with has no UK police customers. The sister product does have UK police, both home office and non home office. I would imagine though that that kind of functionality would be common across most CAD systems.

Our actions plan step just says Contact Network Rail. I would imagine that in a production environment, they would either have it set to Contact Network Rail on xxxxxxx, or have the number in the directory in CAD

 

[Vexed]

It is possible in CAD to put an action plan against an incident type.

We have anonymised data from customers and a lot of the railway incident types have "Call Network Rail" as the first step of the action plan. CAD will also start prompting if actions on the plan have been left undone for a while.

I will caveat that the CAD system I am familiar with has no UK police customers. The sister product does have UK police, both home office and non home office. I would imagine though that that kind of functionality would be common across most CAD systems.

Our actions plan step just says Contact Network Rail. I would imagine that in a production environment, they would either have it set to Contact Network Rail on xxxxxxx, or have the number in the directory in CAD

Does CAD stand for Computer Aided Dispatch?

 

[Lockwood]

Apologies, yes.

So when a 999 is placed, it will feed into the dispatch system.

This system will then recommend a response (IE 2 pumps, 1 rescue, and 1 aerial platform), whatever action plan for the incident type, site specific information (property has a keysafe, code is 1234. Garage nearby with oxyacetylene.), and then send the job to the station/crew pager/mobile data terminal, etc

 

[DelW]

Most people don't wear petticoats today. A Manchester United shirt could work as an alternative, but you might just look drunk.

Personally, I'd much rather ask Ms Agutter to take her petticoat off than ask a Manchester United fan to remove their shirt. There again, I'm in the right demographic to have appreciated Ms A.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Personally, I'd much rather ask Ms Agutter to take her petticoat off than ask a Manchester United fan to remove their shirt. There again, I'm in the right demographic to have appreciated Ms A.

Just as long as she stands still and doesn’t go Walkabout…

 

[DelW]

Just as long as she stands still and doesn’t go Walkabout…

Ooh, I remember that too ... !

 

[matchmaker]

It’s a risk.

And a Hibs shirt would not be a good idea.

 

[stuving]

The ones near me just have a keypad for you to dial any number.

So does my local one, plus it has a label inside the cover giving numbers for emergency (999 - which I think goes out to the standard public network 999 handlers) and the local ECR. But I understood that much of the old internal railway telephone system had been dismantled, so who can you still dial?

 

[Horizon22]

On a platform

• As suggested already try the "two arms raised upright above the head" or "a light of any colour waved vigorously". Might be better if it's the public if there's a few of you so the driver/guard know something is amiss.
• Find a staff member who almost certainly has the signaller's number.
• Press an emergency help point.

If not on a platform (overbridge, level crossing etc.)

• Call the number on the plaque that is usually attached to the bridge (might say "Railtrack" or "The Railway Authority")
• Call the signaller directly from the mounted telephone (crossings).
• Call the NR emergency line - 03457 11 41 41
• If all else fails, call 999.

 

[speedy1]

There is no way I’d be stopping my train from 100mph just because I saw an enthusiast on an embankment with two arms raised above their head. That’s if i even noticed them in the first place

They could just as well be dancing to Y.M.C.A !

 

[Intellectual98]

Yeah that's why I assumed the station. Obviously if on board the red handle is the way to do it.

This isn't to specifically correct you, but more for general information for people reading.

The Passenger Emergency Alarms (the red handle) on modern stock will initiate a brake demand but the driver can, and is trained, to override it so they can respond when it is safe to do so. Typically on a suburban commuter train that will be the next station stop. Unless you are within the confines of a platform, then the instruction is to stop immediately. The microphone isn't active until the driver lifts the handset and selects the active alarm to talk to you. If the onboard CCTV is working this may be displayed to the driver so they can see what is happening and can make a judgement call based on what is seen.


There is no guaranteed way as a passenger to directly stop a train from onboard the service. This is because on older stock people pulled alarms that were playing games, accidentally activated or even worse when someone was ill. It delays obtaining assistance for sick passengers and more importantly causes knock on incidents where passengers get annoyed and instead start to pull egresses, on top of just causing delays to the service. Even if the brake demand is able to be released from a stand without walking back and passengers can clearly communicate the problem through the microphone ( they usually can't), a single emergency stop can take 10 minutes to stop, ascertain the issue, report the out of course stop to the signaller, report the PEA activation to control, release the PEA emergency brakes, then accelerate up to continue the journey.

The Huntingdon knife incident is an example where a passenger alarm activated on older stock would have meant the driver would need to walk back to reset and would have caused a much worse situation. The drivers actions are also starting to come up in ongoing training for how we can respond to various incidents.

 

[DerekC]

I’d presume Ms Agutter’s approach would be the one most members of the public would know to do.
At least those in a certain age group

To be fair it was Edith Nesbit's approach really - Jenny Agutter put it into effect in the film version of the book!

I did once do the climbing over the fence and picking up the SPT bit. It was in 1979 just north of Northallerton on the ECML. I was walking my two small children along footpath next to the railway fence, hoping to let them see a train or two. A scruffy looking rake of corridor stock went past heading north, headed by (I think) a class 37 but it might have been something else. The loco was clearly under full power and accelerating hard, but out from the under rear bogie area were coming long streamers of flame. (I have a vivid image still in my mind).

What to do? Mobile phones hadn't been invented, no phone box nearby, couldn't leave the children and run to one anyway. There was a handy signal just over the fence which I could get to without crossing any tracks and I could keep any eye on the kids at the same time. Hop over the fence and lift the receiver. Immediately I got a (not surprisingly) suspicious voice on the phone. I explained why I was there and what I had seen and the signaller just said "thanks, now get back over the fence before I have to report you". I found out by devious means that the train had been stopped at (I think) the old station site at Danby Wiske, by which time the fire had more or less put itself out. So I can't pretend my heroics saved anyone, but I feel I did the right thing in the circumstances.

PS - the kids, of course, burst into tears as soon as I climbed over the fence. I did wonder if the noise added a degree of background credibility to the phone call!

 

[RailwayRookie]

There is no guaranteed way as a passenger to directly stop a train from onboard the service.

Would the emergency door egress handle not initiate a brake demand that cant be overridden or is that cancellable too?

 

[class 9]

There is no way I’d be stopping my train from 100mph just because I saw an enthusiast on an embankment with two arms raised above their head. That’s if i even noticed them in the first place

Indeed, you often see them doing arm up and down handsignal wanting you to sound the horn, what they don't realise that it's the handsignal for 'create brake pipe pressure'!!!!!!

 

[dk1]

Indeed, you often see them doing arm up and down handsignal wanting you to sound the horn, what they don't realise that it's the handsignal for 'create brake pipe pressure'!!!!!!

Haha yes and that used to annoy me too. Never took them up on the request.

 

[Horizon22]

Would the emergency door egress handle not initiate a brake demand that cant be overridden or is that cancellable too?

On modern stock, it depends on the speed the unit is travelling I believe.

 

[dk1]

On modern stock, it depends on the speed the unit is travelling I believe.

Yes on the more modern stock it will initiate an emergency brake application then the doors will release if the train is running under 3 or 5mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe some CAF stock has an actual European style split emergency brake and passcom. This came in handy during that Caledonian Sleeper runaway as the guard could use it to avert disaster.

Regarding the passcom, do drivers really wait to the next station to answer it? This seems a potentially dangerous gap.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yeah that's why I assumed the station. Obviously if on board the red handle is the way to do it.

If you're on board the train then it seems somewhat unlikely that you'd be aware of anything having fallen on the tracks in front of the train

 

[eoff]

If you're on board the train then it seems somewhat unlikely that you'd be aware of anything having fallen on the tracks in front of the train

It is not ideal for someone to post such an ambiguous thread as this and then not clarify it.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There is no way I’d be stopping my train from 100mph just because I saw an enthusiast on an embankment with two arms raised above their head. That’s if i even noticed them in the first place

To be fair if I saw someone waving and desperately trying to get my attention and pointing at the train I’d probably have a look out when safe to do so.

 

[nickswift99]

If anyone is ringing 999, could they not ask for BTP rather than just the police? I’m sure the operator could put the call direct through to them in the same way they can the coastguard for example.

Nope. But it’s worse than that.

Having had recourse to need to engage BTP while at a station, pushing the emergency button on a help point got Thames Valley Police.

Having established the nature of the issue TVP attempted to transfer me to BTP. This failed. Repeated attempts also failed.

I have raised this with GWR who are responsible for the station in question and their customer services team have completely failed to grasp the importance of facilitating emergency communications.

I was eventually able to find someone with working mobile coverage to call BTP directly so I suspect the issue is not with BTP.

 

[dk1]

To be fair if I saw someone waving and desperately trying to get my attention and pointing at the train I’d probably have a look out when safe to do so.

If I noticed them then a very small maybe but it’s not something that is really noticeable at speed and for a train driver to do at any time especially unless it was from somebody railway related.

 

[Intellectual98]

Regarding the passcom, do drivers really wait to the next station to answer it? This seems a potentially dangerous gap.

TW1 tells us to make contact with the person if possible, my TOC says to only do this if it is safe to do so. Generally speaking that means to not do it on restrictive aspects, or approaching the braking area for the next station stop. On my route that means there are very few places that I can attempt to make contact before hitting the next braking area. On a route with longer gaps between stops that balance changes. Contacting a person using a flaky passenger alarm is a multi step process that is a distraction and that needs to be weighed against the risk of potentially having an incident like a station overrun, SPAD or over speed.

The only time we must immediately stop is within the confines of a platform when departing, and our stock does that automatically within 120m of a station stop where the doors have been released.

I can tell you in 15 years and around 100 combined, passenger alarms, call for aids and egresses, only one warranted an immediate stop and that occurred while departing a platform, a small child was separated from their parents and they didn't realise until after the doors had closed.

The vast majority are kids messing around, people that have missed their stop, or someone reporting that another passenger has fainted because they didn't have any breakfast.

As for if a civilian were to use a two arms up hand signal to try to stop a train, or waved a phone light at me, it's never happened, I'm not entirely convinced I would register it without another indication that there was a dangerous situation.

Would the emergency door egress handle not initiate a brake demand that cant be overridden or is that cancellable too?

As another commenter said only at very low speeds, on our trains that's around 3mph, above that the doors stay locked and like a passenger alarm it shows us the nearest camera and gives an alarm in the cab.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can tell you in 15 years and around 100 combined, passenger alarms, call for aids and egresses, only one warranted an immediate stop and that occurred while departing a platform, a small child was separated from their parents and they didn't realise until after the doors had closed.

It only takes one, though. The German Eschede disaster was caused by a train not being stopped when people on board (including the guard) knew a tyre had become detached from a wheel and penetrated the passenger cabin. And a Caledonian Sleeper train was saved from disaster when the guard used it to stop the train from the coaches when the brake pipe hadn't been correctly connected to the loco in error and he realised it was approaching Waverley far too fast.

Yes, you might get time wasted if it's misused, though in the days when it always stopped the train it didn't happen *that* often as a malicious thing. But I'd rather have the facility.

As for if a civilian were to use a two arms up hand signal to try to stop a train, or waved a phone light at me, it's never happened, I'm not entirely convinced I would register it without another indication that there was a dangerous situation.

I've only done it once and didn't know the signal at the time, so I just frantically waved and pointed at the drunken idiot who was running across in front between P1 and P3 at Preston. The train did stop short of flattening him, though whether that was from me waving or the driver seeing him or both I don't know. I didn't see what happened after that but I hope the BTP attended if any staff saw it.

As another commenter said only at very low speeds, on our trains that's around 3mph, above that the doors stay locked and like a passenger alarm it shows us the nearest camera and gives an alarm in the cab.

I assume that's a "fail safe" thing and if power was lost the release would work regardless? If not it again sounds a safety issue. These things always need to work when a train is on its side without power etc.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Riding home on a dusty Northern Line train , when the observant guard pulled the brake handle down as a passenger seemed to be trying to get onto an already closed up train which was moving down the platform , not too fast , but there was a very impressive stop .....naturally there were some very strong words issued.........