Waterloo to be new Sleeper train hub?

[Rational Plan]

Interesting article in Modern Rail about proposals to consolidate sleeper trains at one terminal.

The new night trains for the North will be too long for the current platforms at Euston and with Euston expected to go through a rebuild. The old international platforms at Waterloo would make a good base for the night trains. Currently only platform 20 is going to be used at the old Eurostar terminal. Until a very expensive rebuild occurs at Waterloo they won't be much use to anybody. The current platforms are only any good for the Windsor lines.

Not only are these platforms long, they are not needed, so the trains can open to passengers much earlier as they can stand in the platform for several hours and not get in any ones way (currently they open at 23.30 at Euston.

Plus the old Eurostar terminal would make for a great new passenger lounge. There is also the suggestion for transferring the Penzance sleeper to Waterloo as well and creating a mini franchise.

 

[Eagle]

Would mean that 90s couldn't work the Lowland Caley anymore; 92s maybe? (I'm assuming that all the necessary curves at Willesden and Latchmere are electrified.)

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd be interested to see what this story is based on. By 2014 the former Eurostar platforms ought to be in use by SWT, (despite it not yet being confirmed) because the low numbered platforms 1 and 2 are going to be taken out of use as they cannot deal with 10 car trains, and that means at least three platforms are needed for SWT, ie P20 as announced recently and two more.

However I've also read somewhere that SWT want to transfer an entire service group into the international platforms so that departures are predictably from one particular area.

 

[marks87]

It's a good idea, which could essentially create a proper hotel experience at Waterloo.

The lowland sleeper especially suffers from the fact it departs so late...which means that most people probably don't want anything substantial from the lounge car. But if you could check in at the station, leave your stuff in your cabin then leave the train again to get a meal at 8/9pm, that could be popular.

Cabin doors would be lockable (key card control, perhaps?), natch.

 

[jones_bangor]

If we had a Government that had true "green" credentials, not just a green emulsion coat that got washed away the day after the election, the UK would be looking at sleeper trains to Rome, Nice, Barcelona, Madrid, Malaga. Seems they'd rather build an Airport in the middle of an internationally designated conservation site.

 

[Eagle]

Cabin doors would be lockable (key card control, perhaps?), natch.

And if you haven't paid for a berth and are travelling seated?

 

[marks87]

And if you haven't paid for a berth and are travelling seated?

You keep your luggage with you, or offer left luggage facilities.

 

[deltic]

Its clear from the Great Western franchise consultation document that DfT would be delighted to see the end of the Penzance sleeper. I was surprised to see that FGW has 4 locos yet the only loco worked service is the sleeper - is that correct or are they used for other uses as well?

 

[marks87]

Presumably they're used for Thunderbird duties as well. And of course, for two trains per night, they need more than two locos because there's no such thing as 100% uptime.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Looking further long term surely Paddington would be a much more appropriate location as its already electrified and could connect onto HS2 (assuming its built) at Old Oak Common annd with the added benefit of being linked to Crossrail and Heathrow Airport

 

[Lrd]

Looking further long term surely Paddington would be a much more appropriate location as its already electrified and could connect onto HS2 (assuming its built) at Old Oak Common annd with the added benefit of being linked to Crossrail and Heathrow Airport

But there aren't any empty platforms going to waste.

 

[dk1]

Was reading that article myself. Until then it never occured to me. However the more i read the more it seemed an excellent idea. Will allow seated accomodation to go over to MKIII & will overcome the problems of platforming the lengthy trains (GW sleeper excepted) during Euston's re-build.

Better passenger facilities & the chance to berth trains much earlier in the evening are all very positive.

 

[IanXC]

Looking further long term surely Paddington would be a much more appropriate location as its already electrified and could connect onto HS2 (assuming its built) at Old Oak Common annd with the added benefit of being linked to Crossrail and Heathrow Airport

My thoughts exactly, the Calendonians could run via the New North Main Line and rejoin the WCML at Coventry.

What are the maximum formation lengths which could be accommodated at Paddington? And for that matter Kings Cross?

 

[dk1]

What are the maximum formation lengths which could be accommodated at Paddington? And for that matter Kings Cross?

Definatley nowhere near load 16 at either. This was one of the main reasons given for the origional concentration on Euston.

 

[Zoe]

The Night Riviera did run to Waterloo for some time in the 1990s but this didn't last that long.

 

[IanXC]

Definatley nowhere near load 16 at either.

Ah. If only the version of St Pancras with an EMT platform extending all the way into the main trainshed had been built!

 

[dk1]

The Night Riviera did run to Waterloo for some time in the 1990s but this didn't last that long.

Yes they did. Cannot remember why or for how long. Was it the same time the crazy & wasteful HSTs ran the Eurostar link trains?

 

[IanXC]

Yes they did. Cannot remember why or for how long. Was it the same time the crazy & wasteful HSTs ran the Eurostar link trains?

I believe so. To give "connectivity" with Eurostar presumably.

 

[Eagle]

Yes they did. Cannot remember why or for how long. Was it the same time the crazy & wasteful HSTs ran the Eurostar link trains?

Do you mean the VXC NW–Paddington services that were diverted via Richmond into Waterloo?

 

[IanXC]

Were there not Wales and West 158 services to Waterloo for the same reason?

 

[dk1]

Do you mean the VXC NW–Paddington services that were diverted via Richmond into Waterloo?

No. Eurostar link trains where meant to be a stop-gap before the ill-fated NoL Eurostar through services. HSTs where used but only for International passengers with no domestic passengers accepted for journeys such as Newcastle to Doncaster. These trains loaded to something like 30 passengers tops & had buffet. They trawled around the West London lines making journey times very unattractive.

 

[Eagle]

Were there not Wales and West 158 services to Waterloo for the same reason?

From Manchester via Shrewsbury, STJ and Salisbury was one...

 

[dk1]

Were there not Wales and West 158 services to Waterloo for the same reason?

Yes but also to corner some of the London market. Only SWTs Bristol pair remain of a route that at one time included West Wales & Manchester.

 

[Zoe]

Yes but also to corner some of the London market. Only SWTs Bristol pair remain of a route that at one time included West Wales & Manchester.

I seem to remember a Waterloo to Penzance via Bristol Wales & West service running at one time although I don't think there was a service in the opposite direction. This is not to be confused with the later South West Trains service to Penzance via Honiton.

 

[dk1]

Going to have to visit the attic & them old timetables now. Thanks!! :roll:

 

[anthony263]

I certainly remember the 20:16 Pembroke Dock - London waterloo service which arrived at 04:15 in the morning then formed a 05:05 London Waterloo - Maesteg service.

I think both went via Salisbury although I am sure the 05:05 went via Reading

 

[ValleyLines142]

I can't really see Waterloo as being the hub for the Night Riviera, as Paddington is the main terminus of the GWML, plus I'm sure you'd need to sort out new stock and SWT livery etc?

The same goes for the Caledonian Sleeper too, and not only that but it would have to by-pass central London from the north to reach Waterloo. Doesn't seem to make any sense if you ask me.

Or is there something I've missed here?

 

[jopsuk]

Its clear from the Great Western franchise consultation document that DfT would be delighted to see the end of the Penzance sleeper. I was surprised to see that FGW has 4 locos yet the only loco worked service is the sleeper - is that correct or are they used for other uses as well?

Two trains (one each way) takes up two of those locos. But they need something to bring the stock in from Old Oak/Long Rock (no runaround at Paddington or Penzance) and to drag them back to the depot in the morning. 08s could (and do, when there's a failure) do it, but they're a lot slower. So the 57s are used to avoid blocking lines in the morning peak.

It's a bit like the large number of 90s and 67s required each night for the complex Caledonian operation

 

[Eagle]

plus I'm sure you'd need to sort out new stock and SWT livery etc?

Why? The existing stock is fine to run to Waterloo, and there would be no point switching it to SWT; keep it with FGW is far simpler.


The Caledonians can be diverted round the WLL (which is fully electrified) which only adds about six miles to the total journey, so it's hardly a major diversion—would add 20-30 minutes tops.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Why? The existing stock is fine to run to Waterloo, and there would be no point switching it to SWT; keep it with FGW is far simpler.


The Caledonians can be diverted round the WLL (which is fully electrified) which only adds about six miles to the total journey, so it's hardly a major diversion—would add 20-30 minutes tops.

If it can be kept with FGW then fab, I wasn't sure whether it'd have to be transferred to SWT.

The Caledonians can be diverted round the WLL (which is fully electrified) which only adds about six miles to the total journey, so it's hardly a major diversion—would add 20-30 minutes tops.

I don't know what the WLL is :P

I see. But is there really a need for it to be transferred to Waterloo. There'd need to be diagramming to use this WLL and the addition of 20-30 minutes tops as you put it seems a waste of time.

I think both are fine as they are, it's the norm to what happens in the day anyway with Euston-Scotland and Paddington-Cornwall services.