Waterloo to be new Sleeper train hub?

[MidlandMainlie]

And this old chestnut has reappeared abeit the Dail Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396557/How-sky-high-railway-fares-mean-times-expensive-train-fly-Britain.html

Gotta love some of those comments, one person saying "Exactly why we don't need HS2. The price of our rail tickets are extortionate. How come German trains are faster, cheaper, cleaner and more reliable?" :roll:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Gotta love some of those comments, one person saying "Exactly why we don't need HS2. The price of our rail tickets are extortionate. How come German trains are faster, cheaper, cleaner and more reliable?" :roll:

I avoid 'comments' sections like the plague even on the Grauniad website, but I just knew there'd be a whole lot of that! The commentator quoted clearly missing the point that 3 out of the 4 measures in which they claim German trains are superior can be attributed to the fact the Germany has it's own HS1, HS2, HS3...

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I avoid 'comments' sections like the plague even on the Grauniad website, but I just knew there'd be a whole lot of that! The commentator quoted clearly missing the point that 3 out of the 4 measures in which they claim German trains are superior can be attributed to the fact the Germany has it's own HS1, HS2, HS3...

True sill good for a laugh that most people believe what they post without actually thinking it through or applying any sense of logic to what they are saying. Makes you wonder what the future holds for the country though if such people had their way :eek:

 

[TheKnightWho]

True sill good for a laugh that most people believe what they post without actually thinking it through or applying any sense of logic to what they are saying. Makes you wonder what the future holds for the country though if such people had their way :eek:

People have always been like this - the proliferation of the internet has just made it easier for them to get themselves heard, as well as the fact that they can drum each other into a frenzy far more easily.

If I'm honest, looking at young people today in general, the attitude itself will probably stay with us for the rest of time, but fortunately the papers that proliferate it and make it worse are dying out to a degree. There's a world of difference between the youth I saw in America, many of whom are passionate (and dare I say it somewhat brainwashed) by Fox News and their ilk, whereas you'd be hard pressed to find all that many young people in this country who'll openly read the Daily Mail, let alone defend it.

 

[edwin_m]

I've made the point before - but why is everyone talking about London? For travel between the Midlands or Northern England and North Scotland the sleeper is the only cost effective way to do a full day's work and be at the other end the next morning. Why isn't this marketed or commented on more?

I know the market isn't as big, but then currently the sleeper ain't that big!

I don't think most people would consider hanging around at Crewe until 2353 as particularly convenient, and in the other direction being dropped there before 0600 is even worse.

 

[Eagle]

Especially if you're only going as far as Stirling, meaning you need to be off the train by 04.54.

Yes I've done that before, and no I didn't sleep at all.

 

[LateThanNever]

I've made the point before - but why is everyone talking about London? For travel between the Midlands or Northern England and North Scotland the sleeper is the only cost effective way to do a full day's work and be at the other end the next morning. Why isn't this marketed or commented on more?

I know the market isn't as big, but then currently the sleeper ain't that big!

Fine, merge it with the Callie sleeper for a Scotland-Weymouth service, maybe an extra one that starts up north Scotland and calls at all stations to Edinburgh where it merges, Carlisle, Preston, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Stoke-On-Trent, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Winchester, both Southamptons, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Wareham?, Dorchester South and Weymouth.

Extra minutes added to a timetable to allow for making up time if the train is delayed (not to be confused with the minutes added due to pathing reasons where a slower train waits for a faster one to pass). The sleeper has loads of padding because it could be completely diverted anywhere due to overnight engineering. With the Scotrail sleeper though, all the stops are either pick-up or set-down, so there's nothing to force an early train to wait for its proper departure time at Watford, because there isn't a departure time. Personally I think they should just stick a departure time in the working timetable, and just not publicize it, so people don't get overcarried because they were asleep.

Other than the sleeper it seems that the services with the most padding are XC Voyager-operated ones (which are pretty damn fast and can accelerate quick, meaning they can make up time).

Well it seems to me that the most obvious future sleeper use is long distance inter regional services. Cross country is very fast between stations but then waits for ever at those stations where it has arrived early and then some... so as not to be late at the next.. and prob not to incur penalty charges given that it is a difficult route.
Sleepers don't need to be fast and could provide (indeed the Scotland South West sleepers used to be the most heavily used in the UK as I understand it) good links for people who don't want to fly or to spend almost all day
travelling!

 

[D6975]

And yet they continue to be full with often no berths available upon departure.



Apart from the fact that it will be opening in the coming years for use of domestic passengers?

I thought that the use of the international platforms was a temporary thing while the east side was being remodelled?
Have they changed their mind now and are going to make it part of the main station?

 

[paul1609]

Fine, merge it with the Callie sleeper for a Scotland-Weymouth service, maybe an extra one that starts up north Scotland and calls at all stations to Edinburgh where it merges, Carlisle, Preston, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Stoke-On-Trent, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Winchester, both Southamptons, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Wareham?, Dorchester South and Weymouth.


Well it seems to me that the most obvious future sleeper use is long distance inter regional services. Cross country is very fast between stations but then waits for ever at those stations where it has arrived early and then some... so as not to be late at the next.. and prob not to incur penalty charges given that it is a difficult route.
Sleepers don't need to be fast and could provide (indeed the Scotland South West sleepers used to be the most heavily used in the UK as I understand it) good links for people who don't want to fly or to spend almost all day
travelling!

As a naval rating I travelled on the Scotland to South West Sleepers the cliental were mostly naval ratings or MOD employees. This business was lost at a stroke when the government closed Rosyth Naval Base and the sleeper was withdrawn about a year later.
There was at one time some business that travelled to the offshore industry but this had been lost to air by a series of strikes. The trains were good for parties and i sometimes made it to Edinburgh without finding my berth!

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that the use of the international platforms was a temporary thing while the east side was being remodelled?
Have they changed their mind now and are going to make it part of the main station?

They haven't changed their mind AFAICS. For a number of years the published intention has been to extend the main suburban platforms to 10 car and use the four remaining international platforms to expand the whole station. As always it will be phased as funds allow, and the details of whether or not they permanently lose P1 and P2 depend on the possibility of demolition outside the railway boundary, to widen the throat outside P1-P4.

There are also rumours that they want to make every platform 12 car capable, because there are benefits in doing all the work once, rather than coming back later. This might even mean a platform or two in the middle of the station being sacrificed.

 

[david16]

What would be really useful is data on the destinations of sleeper passengers after arrival in London. I can't see that a significant proportion would travel from say Pitlochry or Fort William in order to take a Eurostar to Paris - it'd be much quicker (and probably rather cheaper) to fly from Edinburgh or Glasgow. I'd expect that business travellers would want to go to the City, Canary Wharf or the West End, politicians and civil servants to Westminster - all of whom would benefit from Waterloo over Euston. Does anyone have any data?

Tobbes

It aint posible for trains from Edinburgh and Glasgow to terminate at Waterloo going via Watford, Stevenage and Grantham.

 

[MCR247]

Watford, Stevange and Grantham? What?

Sleepers use the WCML and could go to Waterloo by using the West London Line via Kensington Olympia

 

[TheKnightWho]

It aint posible for trains from Edinburgh and Glasgow to terminate at Waterloo going via Watford, Stevenage and Grantham.

Actually, it was until not very long ago. Take them via Clapham Jn., the Kingston Loop, back up the Waterloo to Reading until Richmond, up and across on the NLL, taking a right turn at Willesden Jn., and then finally the curve onto the ECML just north of St. Pancras.

All they'd have to do is reinstate the points allowing a left turn up the NLL at Richmond.

 

[bangor-toad]

It aint posible for trains from Edinburgh and Glasgow to terminate at Waterloo going via Watford, Stevenage and Grantham.

Leaving aside whether or not sleepers would ever actually serve Waterloo, there are numerous routes to Waterloo from the Scottish mainlines.

WCML:
As MCR247 says, Waterloo - West London Line (Kensington Olympia) - Over the GWML - Down onto the WCML near Willesden Junction.
There's also Waterloo - Clapham Junction - Chiswick - NLL - Little bit of the Dudding Hill line - Down onto the WCML

ECML:
Either route as above to Willesden Junction, then along the NLL, then at Gospel Oak either directly to Harringay via Upper Holloway onto the ECML or perhaps (is this possible?) via Camden and the track complex at the north end of St Pancras down onto the ECML.

There's also a route to access the MML in case that was ever needed for diversionary purposes:
Waterloo - Chiswick - NLL - Dudding Hill line - MML

None of these need reversals or messing about. Of course, pathing would be a challenge for any of the above and perhaps some bits currently don't see passenger service.



Of course, there are other routes that may be possible but probably aren't quite sane. Mind you, how about:
Waterloo - Lindford Curve (Old Channel Tunnel flyover) - South London Line via Peckham Rye - ELL through Canada Water & Shoreditch - NLL - Camden Road and onto the WCML.
Cheerfully ignoring all and any issues of clearance, I'd pay for that as a railtour!

Jason

 

[Norther Monkey]

I don't think most people would consider hanging around at Crewe until 2353 as particularly convenient, and in the other direction being dropped there before 0600 is even worse.

It's not ideal, but it gives an extra full day, or 2 days, at home so the benefits outweigh the negatives, and unlike London there are no reasonably priced alternatives to achieve this. There are post work services to Stirling that arrive before midnight - but not to Aberdeen/Inverness.

My concern is that all sleeper focus is on the London market, which suffers from the competition from the airlines. This may lead the new franchise to focus on improving the sleeper 'experience' for the tourist market - thus increasing fares beyond the reach of those of us who use it regularly to improve our quality of life.

 

[edwin_m]

It's not ideal, but it gives an extra full day, or 2 days, at home so the benefits outweigh the negatives, and unlike London there are no reasonably priced alternatives to achieve this. There are post work services to Stirling that arrive before midnight - but not to Aberdeen/Inverness.

My concern is that all sleeper focus is on the London market, which suffers from the competition from the airlines. This may lead the new franchise to focus on improving the sleeper 'experience' for the tourist market - thus increasing fares beyond the reach of those of us who use it regularly to improve our quality of life.

Perhaps they should consider routeing it via Birmingham, which would have at least as much catchment as Crewe and a slightly more civilised departure and arrival time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The sleepers certainly have benefits for users that aren't intending to book a berth and aren't going end-to-end. I've never used the Scottish sleepers but have used the 'Night Riviera' (a stupid name- why not simply 'Cornish Sleeper'?) to get home to Taunton from gigs in Bristol (back when Temple Meads was an advertised stop) and London. The prices (Bristol on Off-Peak Return*, London on a Supersaver**) weren't bad even allowing for being on a YP Railcard back then (c.2003-2006)!
On that basis, extra stops on the existing sleepers (Birmingham maybe, and resuming the Bristol calls) perhaps with an extra seated coach (or even two on the Cornish service seeing as it no longer divides at Plymouth) might be a good way of boosting revenue from the services.

*=technically it was a 'Saver'** back then.
**=remember them?


As far as I understood it from various other threads, the current (or seriously mooted) plan for the former international platforms at Waterloo was to integrate all of them for SWT services, initially to allow the Wimbledon suburban platforms (1-4) to be extended.

In due course many of these services may be heading for Crossrail 2 which would free up platforms at Waterloo. If the International platforms still had a reasonable length to them after all this time and work they could well be ideal as a 'hub' for sleeper services. particularly as the platforms wouldn't need to be vacated in a hurry so 'lie-ins' would be possible to an extent. The platforms could also serve as a cleaning/light servicing depot for the rolling stock (repatriated Nightstar coaches perhaps!)

 

[Norther Monkey]

Perhaps they should consider routeing it via Birmingham, which would have at least as much catchment as Crewe and a slightly more civilised departure and arrival time.

Sounds like a good plan - probably has a larger, better connected catchment area than Crewe. Additionally, as you say, possibly a slightly better departure time and better facilities for those waiting for the train.