Waterloo to be new Sleeper train hub?

[Nym]

OK, with my pedant's hat on, "Oh yeah, a transformer, that's really gonna help in DC land! Lets feed it through the transformer so we see no voltage or current on the secondary... "

Without my pedant's hat on, "Yeah that could work, but you may as well feed it from a Locomotive since theres aparently a fair few 92's spare"

 

[LE Greys]

OK, with my pedant's hat on, "Oh yeah, a transformer, that's really gonna help in DC land! Lets feed it through the transformer so we see no voltage or current on the secondary... "

Without my pedant's hat on, "Yeah that could work, but you may as well feed it from a Locomotive since theres aparently a fair few 92's spare"

I'm afraid I don't understand anything more modern than an exhaust steam injector, at least not very well.

 

[Nym]

Transformers don't work on DC is the basic point, but you can use Power Electronics to step up and stabalise from the 750V DC on the rails to 1000V DC (IIRC) for the ETH supply. But it's a heafty and expensive bit of kit.

And aplogies, but i just spent the last 15 weeks messing around with these and lecturing idiots (who should know better, 3rd year EEE students) that there's no such thing as a DC transfromer...! (Not saying anyone who doesn't know that IS an idiot, just that a 3rd year EEE student is an idiot for not knowing this)

 

[34D]

And increases the potential for 'standardised sets' so four can be available at Waterloo... Although if the sleepers actally gain some adversising then it could be the case that four will be required anyway...

(PS: This would mean a pool of ten class 92 locomotives, two per diagram and two spare, as the incoming locos would be trapped in Waterloo Int. untlil the sleeper left, they could kindly sod off to Wembley)

Could propel out then run round somewhere (don't believe this is allowed any more).

If a class 92 could haul the riviera waterloo-bristol this couldn't happen every night, due to diversions via westbury/yeovil etc, so couldn't decrease the number of diesels required every night. 0C99 (ecs to paddington or maybe waterloo) could be electric though - to be fair it could be electric now (subj to sidings at old oak) but don't think its ever happened - class 08 is as exotic as it gets.

If this move ever happened, I'd like to think there could be a fast pad-reading and eus-wfj trains at around 23:45 and 23:30 to cater for the unwary.....

 

[Nym]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't have local pax on these services, and there as usual would be the locals to Reading and Watford where they would still be calling to pick up any locals...

If you could time the staggering off waterloo properly, you could consivably do it with 1 loco per rake and one spare. would need about 45mins between departures though.

 

[Uzair]

Could the stock for the Night Riveria sleeper be stabled at Clapham Junction sidings? I'm not sure whether they are long enough, and if they actually can be, seeing as many Class 450/444 trains stable there.

 

[Nym]

They could sit quite happily while being cleaned and replenished in Waterloo Int. within the current timetable, and continue to do so if 3 platforms remain free, four would be better, 21-25 to cover an ECS swap with stock in Wembley...

 

[Tomnick]

If you could time the staggering off waterloo properly, you could consivably do it with 1 loco per rake and one spare. would need about 45mins between departures though.

45 minutes to get a loco from one platform onto its train in a nearly adjacent platform??

 

[Tobbes]

I would've thought that Waterloo International would have been the ideal London terminal for the sleeper, with direct access to the Waterloo & City, Jubilee (Canary Wharf, West End) and over the bridge to Westminster. It would also be much more convenient in the evenings for most passengers, I would think.

Presuming that Class 92s could haul and heat the trains, is there capacity on the Willesden Junction - Waterloo section to take two trains a morning?

Tobbes

 

[Manchester77]

Waterloo International is needed by SWT for their platform lengthening project while platforms 1 - 4 are out of use

Also Euston served by both branches of the northern line, Victoria as well as bing in walking distance to circle, Hammersmith and metropolitan lines as well as being close to Kings Cross and St Pancras International (early morning connections to continent)

 

[Tobbes]

Forgive me, I'd missed this thread. (Having now read the whole thing...) it seems clear that post the lengthening and closure of the existing platforms 1 and 2 at Waterloo, room could be found for the sleepers on platforms 23-25. And Waterloo is arguably better located than Euston with Westminster, the City, Canary Wharf and St Pancras all a single tube ride away: as a reasonably frequent user of the sleepers, I'd be very keen to see the switch!

The outstanding question for me is the loading for intermediate stations to Inverness and Aberdeen: would the savings of running both elements as a single train via Aberdeen and dropping this section off with a shore-supply cancel out the potential loss of revenue from the Inverness line stations?

Apologies for covering old ground.

Tobbes

 

[Eagle]

There isn't a platform 25. And it's probable that all of 21 to 24 will be brought into use for SWT services at some point, so it's a nonstarter.

 

[Manchester77]

Platforms 1 to 4 are closing for lengthening. The existing international platform 20 is being converted - a 444 has made it into the terminal on test.

Waterloo is served by the northern (charring X branch), jubilee, waterloo & city and Bakerloo lines - none of which from Waterloo form a direct service to St Pancras, you either take north bound northern line to Euston and then southbound bank branch one stop (or northbound Victoria line one stop) or the Waterloo and City to bank and then northern to kings X st Pancras.

The sleeper forms the early morning service on some remote Scottish routes as seen on great british railway journeys where michal portillo sits in the lounge car.

 

[Eagle]

Waterloo is served by the northern (charring X branch), jubilee, waterloo & city and Bakerloo lines - none of which from Waterloo form a direct service to St Pancras, you either take north bound northern line to Euston and then southbound bank branch one stop (or northbound Victoria line one stop) or the Waterloo and City to bank and then northern to kings X st Pancras.

Actually the quickest way from Waterloo to St Pancras is Northern to Leicester Square then Piccadilly to KXStP, but if you have luggage the easiest is Bakerloo to Oxford Circus then Victoria to KXStP (Oxford Circus is a same-level interchange and KXStP is fully step-free).

 

[Manchester77]

My point was that its not a 'single tube ride away'

 

[Tobbes]

Thanks for all of this.

So if I understand this correctly, there will be in effect two (or three, if the current platform 2 re-opens) new platforms for SWT? I actually live in Putney so use Waterloo on the Windsor / Reading side frequently, but I'm surprised that the (very welcome) lengthening aside SWT needs all four additional platforms.

I would've thought that as these are presumably for additional services, SWT should be able accommodate two or three early morning arrivals with the stock gone by 0800 in the former international terminal. Waterloo for the sleepers certainly seems like a good idea whilst Euston is reconstructed - and it does have better links to the City, Canary Wharf and Westminster than Euston!

Tobbes

 

[Hartington]

The BBC has an item on the "wish list" issued by the Scottish Government for the Caledonian services http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-23733201. It includes showers on board.

I suppose the existing stock might be modifiable and there have been some suggestions that we might be able to buy back some of the sleepers made for the Channel Tunnel and sold to Canada but it feels to me like new trains which introduces a whole new can of worms into the terminal debate.

 

[Tobbes]

... but it feels to me like new trains which introduces a whole new can of worms into the terminal debate.

I'm not sure why - unless the new trains are sleeper EMUs, which seems unlikely - then they'll just be hauled stock, meaning overhauled Mark 3s or possibly new build (and presumably lighter) Nightstar-style coaches. Either way, this shouldn't impact on the London terminal choice, should it?

Tobbes

 

[Manchester77]

Platform 20 for 2014 and then the other for platforms while platforms 1 to 4 are lengthened. The lengthening of 1 to 4 requires track and points to be moved requiring their closure. During the closure of 1 to 4 all international platforms are required (21 to 24)

 

[Hartington]

The discussion so far has not mentioned the issue of stock. IF (and it's a big IF) a new set of trains is required for the Caledonian service it raises the question of whether it makes sense to retain Mk3s for Cornwall. As you say, it also raises the question of whether to build MU stock rather than loco hauled. If showers and the like are to be included on the train that has implications for weight, particularly if some individual berths have their own shower. That, in turn, raises the question of whether existing locos can haul the load or whether the train becomes too heavy and needs to be split (a bit daft given the consolidation over the years).

It's all highly theoretical since nobody has put in a bid yet.

 

[Manchester77]

Hmmm... 5 car Sleeper units?

I think I was somewhat ahead of you there with this idea:

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/rail/rail2014/individuals/Mugridge, Peter.pdf

Sleeper services, in their current
format, are a very labour-intensive
operation. This is especially true of the
‘Caledonian Sleeper’, where rakes are
split and joined to serve different destinations
from one service.

At Carstairs, the Lowland Sleeper from
London Euston to the Central Belt splits, with
portions running to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
At Edinburgh, the 18-coach 2115 Highland
Sleeper departure from Euston is split into
three portions, with trains then running to
Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William. The
reverse happens on the return journey, with
the three portions formed into one train which
then heads south.

Yet these services provide a vital link for
long-distance travellers. Plus, by avoiding
daytime travel, business users can boost their
productivity. The Sleeper saves a day each way
- it is possible to work a full day in an office
anywhere within range of the M25, catch the
Sleeper, and arrive (refreshed from a night’s
sleep) for an early meeting hundreds of miles
away.

Leisure travellers also make good use of the
Sleeper - it is quite common to see couples or
even parents with young children using the
Sleeper as their means of travel for a holiday or
a weekend break.

However, the labour-intensive methods of
working have confined Sleeper operations
to two core routes in the UK for the past two
decades.

So is it possible to increase flexibility and
reduce costs without compromising service
levels - and possibly even allow a modest
expansion?

I believe this can be done by means of
a carefully designed purpose-built fleet
of Electro-Diesel Sleeper Multiple.....

( Continues for several pages with pictures .)

I can imagine one or two members on here squawking a bit when they realise that my article has been used as part of the formal TS2014 consultation...!!

Hm perhaps some Sleeper Multiple Units could do as we seem to be in a MU world!

 

[Tobbes]

Platform 20 for 2014 and then the other for platforms while platforms 1 to 4 are lengthened. The lengthening of 1 to 4 requires track and points to be moved requiring their closure. During the closure of 1 to 4 all international platforms are required (21 to 24)

Thanks Manchester77; but at some point current platforms 3 & 4 - and possibly 2 - will reopen, suggesting that there will be spare platform capacity in the former international terminal, no? At this point, it would be possible to base the sleepers at Waterloo.

Tobbes

 

[al78]

The BBC has an item on the "wish list" issued by the Scottish Government for the Caledonian services http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-23733201. It includes showers on board.

Would it be theoretically possible for the sleeper to carry enough of a water supply to provide a shower facility? Maybe it would be easier to have the showers available at the station which passengers could use before boarding.

I've used the sleeper once after cycling 72 miles from Sutherland to Inverness and felt I could have ideally done with a shower at the end of it, so it would be good if it was possible to have showers available somewhere*.

*unless they are available and I have missed them.

 

[Eagle]

Thanks Manchester77; but at some point current platforms 3 & 4 - and possibly 2 - will reopen, suggesting that there will be spare platform capacity in the former international terminal, no?

No. By that time the pointwork in the throat of Waterloo will have been redone, allowing services to be distributed between all platforms 3 to 24 (using 22 platforms instead of 19), which reduces conflicts across the throat and increases platform availability.

 

[jopsuk]

Sleeper Multiple Units?

They exist, in Japan and China certainly.

 

[Tobbes]

No. By that time the pointwork in the throat of Waterloo will have been redone, allowing services to be distributed between all platforms 3 to 24 (using 22 platforms instead of 19), which reduces conflicts across the throat and increases platform availability.

Eagle, thanks for this. But what additional services will be accommodated? If there aren't additional services, then NR / DfT could direct that the sleepers are to move to Waterloo, as there would in fact be room for them - even if this meant the loss of 1 or 2 platforms from 0645 to 0750.

 

[Eagle]

There won't necessarily be extra services, just the current services accommodated more efficiently.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Sleeper Multiple Units?

Don't worry... read the full article... no traction equipment underneath any Sleeping accomodation.

 

[Manchester77]

I didn't mean it like 'what why' I meant it in a good way I think your article is marvellous a very good idea I just worded my post wrong :')

I certainly think such a beast could be roaming about at night what worries me is if the current sleeper is full on some nights is that with the franchise wanting stock with on suite toilets you'd need a very long formation?

 

[Taunton]

Plus, by avoiding
daytime travel, business users can boost their
productivity. The Sleeper saves a day each way
- it is possible to work a full day in an office
anywhere within range of the M25, catch the
Sleeper, and arrive (refreshed from a night’s
sleep) for an early meeting hundreds of miles
away.

Wasn't this requirement fully cracked, and embraced by the business world, several decades ago. It's called "airlines".