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I prefer Town B because it's a nicer, more pleasant place to be and better planned out than Town A, despite on paper having similar facilities and services. That's why to me, it only makes sense if a local council looks at all places within its vicinity and surroundings in a similar way and as equally as possible from transport's perspective. That's where franchising will hopefully excel regardless of an urban or
Franchising is unlikely to result in any more fare income or subsidy or lower costs so if you wanted to serve both routes it would be at half the frequency, or less if Town B is further away.
You can often tell whether something is a mistake or incompetence by the way that they react and respond when you make them aware of an issue. A genuine mistake someone will tend to rectify and apologise and do better in the future. Incompetence continues doing the same thing over and over, tries to bury their heads in the sand for as long as they can, and then when they eventually do have to face the music, spends far too long justifying their own actions (often far longer than it would take to fix). Growing numbers of local authority staff are falling into the latter.
Growing numbers of people in all walks of life are doing this - if they feel threatened then it is natural human reaction. Blame game and witch hunts. It all depends on the approach, the language and of course the priorities.
I largely agree. The current way in which operators are acting is not sustainable long term. How much of that though is due to actions taken though by local authorities or governments? You can't keep hitting commercial businesses revenues and directly or indirectly keep increasing their costs with policies, and also expect the business to continue thriving and expanding their offering. I'd also agree that bus operators don't help themselves a good chunk of the time (Examples provided by TheGrandWazoo), however seeing the current work being produced (or lack thereof) by local authority and other transport authority staff, it only proves that giving these people more work and more control of things will be absolutely disastrous to Wales.
Yes, Governments (in particular) have affected the profitability of bus companies pretty much since they begun operations. Construction and Use Regulations, Drivers Hours, route and fare regulation, Health and Safety legislation, all sorts of workers rights, disability facilities, Concessionary fares, Fuel Duty and rebates, deregulation, reregulation - all sorts of things. Bus companies most certainly have not helped themselves - much of this legislation has happened because the bus companies were perceived to be acting against the public interest at that time; did not do these things voluntarily and/or 'market led' - and public subsidy money was merely flowing through to the shareholders. Little effort going into care for customers and growing markets. Whether that is a quite fair view is certainly a debate, but perceptions are important..
There is very large quantities of public money going into the bus industy and it is inevitable that much more control (for good or for bad) is going to ensue, and that control is going to be exercised by the staff that can be recruited to those roles.
however seeing the current work being produced (or lack thereof) by local authority and other transport authority staff, it only proves that giving these people more work and more control of things will be absolutely disastrous to Wales.
I already know the reality, and that's why I wouldn't touch a local authority job with a barge pole.
Separately, I find it rather interesting to see that the way in which you have written your reply, is very similar to that of typical local authority staff these days and the way that they speak to members of the public. Perhaps coincidence but still rather interesting
I daresay that there is a gap in experience and ability in the Local Authorities - much the same applies to the bus companies too - so much knowlege has been lost and much is going to have to learnt again, with lots of mistakes made on the way. I suspect your own comment shows the difficulties in recruitment - perhaps the available pool is quite dry, with some who posess the passion for detail not having the suitable temperament to cope in the circumstances?
As for the style of reply - perhaps your approach elicits such a response irrespective of job?
Public transport isn't a natural monopoly though government interference making it difficult to start new operations due to government interventions (you have to buy more, and more expensive, equipment just to start and for a new start up a significant number of your initial passengers won't pay and it will take months to get the government to pay for it) has reduced the amount of competition as there aren't the numbers of new entrants that you used to see. Vehicles are more expensive (accessibility & emissions regs make things more expensive and you may not be able to buy the cheapest due to local emission restrictions, you will need some arrangements or systems to be able to set-up and manage data for legal requirements like BODs and a significant proportion of your initial passengers will not be paying you anything (it is concessionary passengers who will move first to try a new service whilst fare payers will be slower as they may need to wait for season tickets to expire or need you to run for long enough that they can trust you will stay so they move jobs) & the fare cap is currently distorting the market and a new operator will struggle to access that. When I entered the industry you could pick up a half a dozen cheap but reliable old Merc minibuses and old simple ticket machines and be up and running for less than £10k and be taking cash from day one but now that £10k will just about get you two old but increasingly unreliable buses, your ticket machines will probably cost as much as the buses and you need enough money to run for 6 months with almost no income as you wait for the council procedures to work out your concessionary fares reimbursement to start paying you.
I am sure that this is quite deliberate - to keep low quality, get rich quick operators out of the market, and to try and drive quality up. It has pretty much succeeded on the first point, perhaps a little less on the second. With some not so desirable side effects of course.
Also you shouldn't be seeing public transport as the product and so a standalone and distinct segment, people use public transport to access other things other services and so all of our passengers have a choice - and a lot of them. They have a choice of how to travel (car, walk, bike as well as all modes of shared & public transport), when to travel & where to travel (as why they travel is variable) and it is the latter two which are important to remember in this discussion. I have worked for a Local Authority Passenger Transport Department (& as it happens one in South Wales) and worked with dozens across the country as part of my roles in several bus operators and the one clear lesson is that government at all levels doesn't understand the idea of choice at its heart and only the best will listen to the idea they may be missing something and actually make any action to accommodate this. To a local authority if someone has a link to a retail area and an area of employment they have all they need, and they tend to favour ones inside their own council area rather than crossing borders, and if they aren't the right ones for people they just switch to other modes to make the journey they want - those passengers are then lost to public transport and more traffic slows the buses making them less attractive. A private and commercial operator has an incentive to take people where they want to go which may involve offering multiple options (they may not be offering the precise one you want all the time but they are offering the ones the most people want) to capture more people and not to just tick political boxes
Unfortunately, most of this 'choice' has actually been about competing with existing operations in one way or another, rather than providing genuine alternatives for new markets, getting people out of cars or journeys being made which otherwise wouldn't have.. Yes, some modal shift might have happened, but with a hefty dollop of trying to attract the customers off somebody else's bus.
Ok - there's two or three issues here and I'll try to navigate as best I can.
First of all, funding. Part of the problem with much of the funding is hypothecation (aka ring fencing). So to use your analogy, if you receive the money, it may be from the Government Jetski Procurement Fund and that money cannot be used on anything else. This is the problem with many of the DRT schemes that we see. It seems ridiculous (and it is) that we see schemes being introduced that are expensive and don't provide value for money whilst traditional bus services are cut. In Wales, we've seen it with Fflecsi and, more locally to me, great swathes of rural services were removed in favour of Westlink. Those strings are attached and we've seen it with other funding streams too. What happens then is that money is suddenly provided by government but it's a) hypothecated and b) must be spent in a defined period. What that does is drive some really poor behaviours and a "get it spent" mentality rather than taking a more considered approach to get the best value for money. So when the clock is ticking, you see the easy win is to simply introduce an evening service or a rather scattergun approach in looking at gaps on a map rather than a more scientific and strategic approach. It's a failing of the manner of funding as I saw c.2000 with Rural Bus Challenge funding.
That brings us onto the skills set and approach of the local authorities and the individuals concerned.
There's inconsistency between local authorities in their approach and commitment. On this forum, we are public transport advocates. We see things differently to 99% of the populace. So when it comes to the prioritisation of public transport within a local authority, there can be either a lack of focus to do things - as I said, it ISN'T a statutory responsibility (some may say it should be but we are where we are). They MUST deliver education, planning, etc etc and so the focus is on the things that they must do in terms of local government legislation. Some councils have some commitment to local bus services but in others, it's just #94 on the list of things to do and the council will focus on what they think are more pressing issues. I don't think you fully appreciate quite how hollowed out many councils are these days.
In most councils, the transport teams are focussed on schools and SEND transport and it's tough enough for them to handle that workload. Even if they wanted to, they don't have the people to do roadside publicity let alone many of the other issues that irk you. Moreover, they don't have the skilled people in terms of both numbers and skill set. Skills that have been lost as people have left/retired and haven't been backfilled. So when you email them with a complaint/suggestion/otherwise... it's just another thing on their list of things to do and they will prioritise the things that are both statutory duties and are most sensitive, and that's because that is what they have been instructed to do either directly or by default.
A very good analysis, as always from @TheGrandWazoo. Add some additional factors - BSIP money initially only for new/additional facilities, then announcing the end of operator Covid bus grant, so much of the BSIP money was not new money after all - it could then be spent propping up existing operations - in my County of residence this took about half the money. Add the situation of the BSIP+ only being announced on an annual basis (until just recently), meant that no-one was going to go to effort of commiting scarce resource to recast of services which may well have to be all changed back after a year, or upset because new links which some may have grown to rely on would be cut again. So you get overlay and standalone things which can easily be reversed. Can't really blame DfT or Treasury officials either - they are subject to political expediencies on expenditures . When you next look at Good Morning Britain, or Regional TV News, count up how many items are politicians/pressure groups looking for more funding on just about everything under the sun (but particularly education and health of some kind), let alone DJT looking at Europe funding an increased share of their defence. The state of the bus network doesn't get much of a look in.
I know you are responding to someone else now but strongly agree with all of this, definitely feels like this in Hertfordshire, especially anywhere Arriva runs. The only time things change is when the county council uses BSIP money to change things, there is no real competition and ironically in all the places recognised as having good bus networks, there is virtually a benevolent monopoly, instead of one that is managing decline. I guess this is the motivation for franchising all of Wales at once over the next 4 years, I hope they manage to find more experienced people so it's a success. Transport for Wales may appear incompetent but apart from short overcrowded trains every now and then, it seems like a better, more reliable service than when it was Arriva Trains Wales. I didn't realise it until more recently, but I took a picture of a Pacer in Cardiff Central, this was only in 2019! The new trains are much better and gradual investment seems to be getting more and more apparent.
As I said before, the status quo is deeply unsatisfactory and this is the case across much of England and Wales, so trying is better than not trying in my book.
I am sort of with you on this - I think deregulation of the bus industry has run its course. The current situation is not sustainable, so it is time to change. Franchising is the only game in town to realistically deliver network and fare reform.
However, this will come with its own downsides and I am nowhere near as optimistic as you that there will be fundamental change to the level of coverage or that funding will miraculously appear to pay for the sort of services or fares that you envisage. No doubt, hopefully once the necessary structural changes to the industry have been achieved, there will then be calls for another overhaul to the system for 40 years time.
I am sort of with you on this - I think deregulation of the bus industry has run its course. The current situation is not sustainable, so it is time to change. Franchising is the only game in town to realistically deliver network and fare reform.
However, this will come with its own downsides and I am nowhere near as optimistic as you that there will be fundamental change to the level of coverage or that funding will miraculously appear to pay for the sort of services or fares that you envisage. No doubt, hopefully once the necessary structural changes to the industry have been achieved, there will then be calls for another overhaul to the system for 40 years time.
The regulated market (i.e. pre 1986) was not delivering. There was a massive decline from the peak of c.1955 as prosperity grew, the private car became more affordable, and there were massive social changes in this time too - bus services don't exist in a vacuum but are a reflection of, and an amenity shaped by, society. In Wales, we saw that as services were rationalised and depots closed through the 1960s and 1970s whether it was route amalgamations, MAP schemes or simply axing routes e.g. NBC exiting West Pembrokeshire. This was despite all types of direct and indirect subsidy.
So deregulation came as a means for the government to reduce the financial burden from a failing model. In that way, it served its purpose and once stability had been restored after the initial cataclysmic change, passenger numbers began to similarly stabilise, and there was even growth. Then the 2008 crash came and the 2010 coalition government (well, the Tories) used that as a means of having "small government" - they cut funding to the local authorities. Again, the industry was remarkably pragmatic... then came Covid and that has upended the whole industry. Overnight, you had a collapse in passenger numbers that many areas still haven't recovered from, a loss of drivers so services were cut back to achieve some resilience, and increases in costs that outstripped inflation. So in that respect, @RT4038 is correct that the world has changed and perhaps the industry needs to change again.
However, the idea that fundamental growth and investment can be done without proper funding is folly. The idea that cross subsidy can solve it is frankly for the birds; operators make little enough as it is and they've cut costs to and through the bone.
Certainly, in the provinces, I struggle to see where the funding will come from. Local authorities are under massive pressure from increased SEND demand and provision of social care. Where does the money come from when this is increasing, NHS demand is higher, the government can't/won't cut welfare spending, and anything on business rates or parking charges will be counterproductive. Even if we do see additional funding, the fundamental issues in bus operation are not being tackled:
London has a massive cross subsidy from the tube, but that's denying investment into that network AND we're seeing large cost increases to TfL in bus tenders and still cutting/rationalising routes. The hopper fare is now unaffordable, vehicle speeds are now so slow that buses are less attractive and the result is declining ridership
Manchester (Bee Network) responded to the problem of traffic congestion (on the 135 and other routes) by simply adding in more resources - same revenue but more cost - rather than tackling the root cause.
Until the fundamentals begin to get sorted, it's frankly not enough for everything in Wales to be painted red, or being diverted to serve a rail station whether it's desirable or not, or having ticket interavailability so that enthusiasts can travel on several different firms just because they can, or randomly looking at a map and saying "Brecon to Llandovery is a gap" without establishing whether that's something that needs plugging.
EDIT: Subsequent to my posting, Go Ahead London has announced that they've activated the break clauses on services 80, 93, 151, 154, 155, 163, 164 and 470 as they're losing money on them as they can't pass on increases in costs!
I didn't think you meant you expected London frequencies, which would require extra funding an order of magnitude higher to achieve, I assumed you meant proportional funding to provide a proportional service enhancement.
I did mean proportionate to an areas size and population, sorry if that wasn't clear. Your assumption is correct. Most towns in Wales are 10000 or less, so a network of half hourly, hourly or 2 hourly or some cases even a handful of journeys by bus would likely be enough.
Handily found Lloyds Coaches has a map of not just their services, but everything for most of Wales, only the south is missing. If elsewhere around there is like Snowdon/ Eryri. The 'gaps' have virtually no one living there and coverage seems good actually. https://lloydscoaches.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/LC-Route-Map.pdf
Also wonder if Wales (and England) can learn from TFI's Local Link bus services, these connect villages across Ireland to their nearest town or city. Most run 6 to 8 journeys a day (some more, some a little less) but are spread across the whole day, so an early morning and late evening/ early night journey are possible, which I thought was really good. Seems like everything above 500 to 1000 population is covered by a fixed bus route there, with DRT only in the really sparsely populated areas. Could work in Mid Wales quite well if they manage to coordinate the transport a bit more.
It still needs a funding increase the likes of which UK public transport has never seen and which, at this moment in time, we can't really afford to dedicate to this when other more vital things are equally underfunded and much more supported by the general public (health, education & defence currently for instance). You still need to work out where to get the extra money from however much you end up needing, you list some possibles most of which have been tried by councils and in most cases they couldn't even get them introduced due to public outcry (you mention contributions from council tax but where do you think councils get some of their income from already) so you need to work out how to make these things acceptable to a general public who don't view buses at least in the same positive light as you or I do. It should be possible to change public perception but it isn't a quick process and it requires politicians to stick their neck out in the way few outside London, and now Andy Burnham in Manchester, have ever been willing to do but what it isn't is something that can be done over night to make funding available for franchise schemes coming in over the next few years.
Admittedly I am very critical of the current politicians but don't think I would want to do their job right now either. How anyone knows the right priorities? It's hard. I just think if funding consistently allows better public transport, it improves several areas of life in one go and makes the usual priorities, health, education, housing, economy, infrastructure and security a bit more manageable to deal with.
I think the argument always falls back on, we can't afford not to when it comes to investing in better transport, services and infrastructure, as cutbacks cost a lot more in the long run.
Why can't for example Nottingham's parking levy be a good solution in more parts of the country?
From my experience inside the industry almost all of the cuts you were seeing overall in the late 2010's came from councils cutting services due to funding cuts and cost spiralling in other sectors (like social care that is more supported by the general public and more statutory in what you must provide) though there were undoubtedly some bigger operators who were making a mess of things even then (like Arriva) but there were smaller operators around willing to pick up that sort of work. Around 2019, and certainly after COVID, you saw the effect of major cost spikes (wage demands, fuel & parts costs all jumped massively around 2021 to now) knocking a lot of marginal services into loss making and operators having to cut back heavily but councils didn't have the funding to pick a lot of this stuff up themselves - if we don't get the funding into the system, whoever gets it, you can't do more or cover cost increases when they come and right now we are struggling to get that viable long term support for everyone, BSIP and similar streams has brought money in but it isn't long term nor is it ongoing. Whilst we have seen some of our councils get good funding for the next couple of years and so are pushing on with improvements we do have others who didn't do so well this time round and are looking at withdrawing much of the support they were providing and we are now having to look, at fairly last minute matters (we may well end up running some stuff commercially for a couple of months between the funding ending probably in March and us being able to withdraw stuff after 70-days), at what has become commercial, what is close to commercial, what we may be able to persuade the council to fund normally and what has to be dropped as not viable in any timescale we deem realistic.
A lot of the cuts where I live happened quite early on and mostly in one go around 2015/16 with the network settling down to roughly what is now minus the BSIP enhancements by 2018. What was left meant any further cuts during and after covid would cause serious overcrowding issues in rush hour, so unlike most places it didn't have to deal with endless cuts as they happened all around the same time. I'm hoping all across the country, once things move on from BSIP, multi-year settlements become the norm as that would be beneficial for buses, whether public or private I think.
Also with the bus cap, which eventually won't be national in England, probably regional. I think the distance based fares adopted on Trawscymru and seemingly Powys from the video shared on Post #77 are a very good solution. 24 miles is a good distance to cap at.
And if you read my point I said that, in my experience of working for a council and interacting with around two dozen other council transport departments, it is more likely that a council (as would be running a franchise scheme) would say to you that you have a bus to Town A so there is no reason to fund one to Town B. It is more likely that a commercial operator would say there is demand for travel to Town A & Town B so we will run buses to both, assuming enough of you want to go to Town B to support the link.
Sad that is your experience, as this is partly why the public don't like councils very much. Virtually no one travels around to a specific boundary and then doesn't cross it. Imagine if we treated roads like that and a council refused to link up their section, same problem. My main concern with deregulation always was the routes can just disappear at a short notice, which is no good for planning or if transport is to be used for wider goals in society like modal shift. Franchised areas do change and cut things but at least consideration is given to the people who rely on the service. Not never mind not enough people are using it, tough luck! I think if I ever moved, it would have to be within 15 minutes of a rail station as the buses in many places, can't be trusted to still be around in the long run.
And if any Welsh councils neighbouring English ones do as you describe that is doubly sad, in the borders, seems like everyone's nearest town happens to be on the English side. Liverpool, Chester, Shrewsbury, Gloucester/ Cheltenham etc. Seems like commuting from South East Wales to Bristol is quite common too.
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I am sort of with you on this - I think deregulation of the bus industry has run its course. The current situation is not sustainable, so it is time to change. Franchising is the only game in town to realistically deliver network and fare reform.
However, this will come with its own downsides and I am nowhere near as optimistic as you that there will be fundamental change to the level of coverage or that funding will miraculously appear to pay for the sort of services or fares that you envisage. No doubt, hopefully once the necessary structural changes to the industry have been achieved, there will then be calls for another overhaul to the system for 40 years time.
I wouldn't even say that is a bad thing, situations change, so how a government or industry works changing makes sense. I think the context of the late 20th century with vast material wealth, growing car ownership and more individualism due to really good living standards for almost everyone is really unlikely to play out in the same way ever again. I don't think car/ van ownership can grow much more (maybe it has peaked already), we haven't got the space or infrastructure for it. Standard of living clearly has peaked, in part because nearly everything is too expensive. A shift away from Thatcherism/ Neo-liberalism was coming anyway, surprised it took as long as it did. We can't really predict what we will need in 2066 from wider society but if the reforms mean a shift away from today's policy, that's the cycle of life and history. It's not the same world as the 80s.
I agree deregulation has run its course. Buses and trains, it almost like it has come full circle and we're seeing the state intervene again like it did in the 1920s and 1930s, only to go all in the late 40s. History doesn't really repeat itself but similarities sometimes are uncanny.
Also wonder if Wales (and England) can learn from TFI's Local Link bus services, these connect villages across Ireland to their nearest town or city. Most run 6 to 8 journeys a day (some more, some a little less) but are spread across the whole day, so an early morning and late evening/ early night journey are possible, which I thought was really good. Seems like everything above 500 to 1000 population is covered by a fixed bus route there, with DRT only in the really sparsely populated areas. Could work in Mid Wales quite well if they manage to coordinate the transport a bit more.
Can you point us to some examples in Wales where you suggest a 'TFI local link' service would exist. Bearing in mind that in almost all instances that would probably qualify, are areas where services have been cut due to low patronage, replaced by Fflecsi, or wouldn't work because of outdated policies of segregating adults and young people (which often leads to adults missing out as the resources are then needed for transporting young people instead).
Note that low patronage would mean that your idea would be pushing ideology and ignoring reality and would require a bottomless money pit which we don't have, and the latter 2 are already within the local authorities/governments control and nothing stops them changing these policies tomorrow, but they actively don't want to change them.
Are you sure on that? Many TFL proposals have been pushed through despite large scale disapproval from the public.
Have you see any consultation on the various changes that TFGM is making to the Bee Network? Because no one else has, the changes just got made and people have to suck it up.
Did you see the consultation for the Powys changes? Where they consulted on one network, got feedback, then completely changed the network and ignored all of the feedback because it didn't suit their vision for the network.
Just a few examples that prove that your comment is not quite true. The soundbite that franchised network are ran by the people for the people, is just politicians talking rubbish so they can push through franchising. In reality, there is no more care for the public than under the current model. Some good areas care, most don't. Some good operators care, some don't.
And if any Welsh councils neighbouring English ones do as you describe that is doubly sad, in the borders, seems like everyone's nearest town happens to be on the English side. Liverpool, Chester, Shrewsbury, Gloucester/ Cheltenham etc.
Dare I ask which parts of Wales, consider Gloucester, Cheltenham or Liverpool to be their closest town?
They may see these places as their closest city. Cities offering more variety of shops and experiences. It's where people may go for their Christmas shopping for example, but nowhere in Wales would ever consider these places as a nearest town.
Chester and Shrewsbury still wouldn't really be the nearest towns, but there are often work and family connections. Plus more variety of shops etc.
Hardly surprising. Cheaper housing on one side, better jobs prospects on the other side. No brainer. Links could really do with being improved but the intercity coach network doesn't want to offer any half decent offers for regular passengers (booking trips every day and dealing with volatile pricing is no good for commuters). And for buses, the motorway network isn't in your favour, and National Highways closes the M48 bridge every time someone breaks a fingernail meaning congestion, or in the case of Chepstow, double backing at Magor.
Hopefully evening services are restored back to better frequency. Eg some of the city services around Swansea these days are every 90 minutes. Im currently driving the 28s to penplas tonight busy at times then completely dead
Hopefully evening services are restored back to better frequency. Eg some of the city services around Swansea these days are every 90 minutes. Im currently driving the 28s to penplas tonight busy at times then completely dead
Reading the outcome of the public consultation on the south west there’s a string inference that TfW may only just afford what operates today, so I wouldn’t count on it!
Reading the outcome of the public consultation on the south west there’s a string inference that TfW may only just afford what operates today, so I wouldn’t count on it!
Hardly surprising. Cheaper housing on one side, better jobs prospects on the other side. No brainer. Links could really do with being improved but the intercity coach network doesn't want to offer any half decent offers for regular passengers (booking trips every day and dealing with volatile pricing is no good for commuters). And for buses, the motorway network isn't in your favour, and National Highways closes the M48 bridge every time someone breaks a fingernail meaning congestion, or in the case of Chepstow, double backing at Magor.
That is true - much cheaper house prices in Newport than Bristol.
However, the fact was that the X7 (and before that, the X14) was the default link from there to Bristol. In fact, there was an unofficial park and ride where people would park up and catch it in Chepstow. What happened.... the tolls were removed and it destroyed the patronage.
As for the M48 closing, it's not on a whim. Fact is that it's a suspension bridge, it's very exposed, the vehicle deck is about knackered and so is the road surface.
Did you see the consultation for the Powys changes? Where they consulted on one network, got feedback, then completely changed the network and ignored all of the feedback because it didn't suit their vision for the network.
Hopefully evening services are restored back to better frequency. Eg some of the city services around Swansea these days are every 90 minutes. Im currently driving the 28s to penplas tonight busy at times then completely dead
I'd say Swansea is the most obvious example of where there really could be a good transport network if only the operators and authorities could work together and funding provided.
That is true - much cheaper house prices in Newport than Bristol.
However, the fact was that the X7 (and before that, the X14) was the default link from there to Bristol. In fact, there was an unofficial park and ride where people would park up and catch it in Chepstow. What happened.... the tolls were removed and it destroyed the patronage.
As for the M48 closing, it's not on a whim. Fact is that it's a suspension bridge, it's very exposed, the vehicle deck is about knackered and so is the road surface.
The Powys one was faintly ridiculous. Not certain who was actively wanting a Brecon to Llandovery service...
I'd say Swansea is the most obvious example of where there really could be a good transport network if only the operators and authorities could work together and funding provided.
I agree that Swansea does appear to have scope, but that can only now be realised with a lot of investment in frequencies and operating hours to try and regain the boom they had at the late 90s turn of 2000s. Having said that, the Uni Bus network should help support that.
This is an interesting read regarding Powys -
A presentation to the Omnibus Society (South Wales & West Branch) by representatives from Powys County Council and Transport for Wales about the 2025 tendering exercise in Powys involving local bus services and home-to-school transport. Among the items featured in the talk were the steps taken to engage small and medium operators in the procurement process and the introduction of new fares and ticket products as well as the desire to roll out vehicle and information branding that accords with TfW's T Network principles.
Surprised that the level of network increase, even though some key links were omitted, along with tenders priced in 2025 and not the last time of 2019 seemed to surprise some - including TfW.
Can you point us to some examples in Wales where you suggest a 'TFI local link' service would exist. Bearing in mind that in almost all instances that would probably qualify, are areas where services have been cut due to low patronage, replaced by Fflecsi, or wouldn't work because of outdated policies of segregating adults and young people (which often leads to adults missing out as the resources are then needed for transporting young people instead).
Note that low patronage would mean that your idea would be pushing ideology and ignoring reality and would require a bottomless money pit which we don't have, and the latter 2 are already within the local authorities/governments control and nothing stops them changing these policies tomorrow, but they actively don't want to change them.
I'm not sure that the policy of segregating adults and young people on school journeys is particularly 'outdated' - mixing them was a very common practice up until the 1970s, particularly grammar school pupils riding the ordinary bus network to and from school, and being a major revenue source for those services. Of course, in that era, there were lots of ordinary passengers travelling as well, and many buses still had a roving Conductor keeping an eye on things too.
So what has changed? Schools have, by and large, moved out of Town/City centres, meaning long extensions or deviations to normal routes; Comprehensive education has bulked up the number of pupils on flows (full, best restricted use bus loads), meaning the smaller 'grammar' flows no longer exist in many parts; One person operated vehicles resulting in less supervision; much fewer ordinary passengers travelling; safeguarding issues, both perceived and real are now much more to the forefront; SEND children increasingly attending mainstream schools and requiring special attention; large bus companies increasingly unable to deal with any specialist issues - public bus services becoming increasingly unreliable and unpredictable for a variety of reasons, by no means all the fault with the bus operator.
If you did a consultation asking Parents whether they would prefer their child to travel on a special school bus, or on a public bus, we know that the majority would request the former. Whilst some vague feeling of safeguarding will be in the back of most minds (and some strong feelings in a minority), this card will be played even though the main issue can be summed up in 'the pupils will come first on a dedicated school service' instead of them being fitted in amongst other runs and passengers on a public bus, with (at best) indifferent attitude of staff or (at worse) hostile drivers and far off customer service / management being unresponsive to immediate issues. The School itself will prefer a dedicated bus, as they are far less hassle to them.
Examples (not exhaustive)
Public bus scheduled in amongst other journeys, where delays can knock on to the school journey, particularly in the afternoon
Safeguarding issue of a tiny minority of other passengers, especially if the bus is on a through journey from anywhere else - in my experience usually a couple of larrykins / potheads smoking / offering pupils smokes / asking suggestive questions; or issues arising from adverse child custody cases.
Schools don't want public buses mid journey to come onto their premises (safeguarding ) meaning at some schools pupils on the public bus have to wait at distant stops bedevilled by car parking, unsupervised. (Issue for 'duty of care' especially with entitled pupils) . Waiting children a nuisance to residents in some locations.
Public buses can't/won't adjust their times when school finishes early (end of term, sports day etc); big bus companies not co-operative
Lost property/ lost pupils / late pupils not dealt with sympathetically by big bus companies and their staff
Road closures/diversions leaving pupils away from their usual stops - problem for SEND pupils who get stressed by such things.
That is not to say it doesn't work in some cases, or that some bus companies or their local managers haven't got the operation totally under control.
As you point out, this can leave a small minority of other passengers without services at school times. Those who complain about not being able to travel on buses full of school children are often looked at with some suspicion!
Can you point us to some examples in Wales where you suggest a 'TFI local link' service would exist. Bearing in mind that in almost all instances that would probably qualify, are areas where services have been cut due to low patronage, replaced by Fflecsi, or wouldn't work because of outdated policies of segregating adults and young people (which often leads to adults missing out as the resources are then needed for transporting young people instead).
Note that low patronage would mean that your idea would be pushing ideology and ignoring reality and would require a bottomless money pit which we don't have, and the latter 2 are already within the local authorities/governments control and nothing stops them changing these policies tomorrow, but they actively don't want to change them.
Are you sure on that? Many TFL proposals have been pushed through despite large scale disapproval from the public.
Have you see any consultation on the various changes that TFGM is making to the Bee Network? Because no one else has, the changes just got made and people have to suck it up.
Did you see the consultation for the Powys changes? Where they consulted on one network, got feedback, then completely changed the network and ignored all of the feedback because it didn't suit their vision for the network.
Just a few examples that prove that your comment is not quite true. The soundbite that franchised network are ran by the people for the people, is just politicians talking rubbish so they can push through franchising. In reality, there is no more care for the public than under the current model. Some good areas care, most don't. Some good operators care, some don't.
Consultation is consultation, it is not some sort of vote. I look at it as trying to find out if there is anything that may have been missed about an already thought about idea. The responses may or may not be taken into consideration, as the different competing viewpoints are weighed up. At least people have been given the chance to influence, which they probably won't have with a private company pulling the strings. However, I do not see public control as a panacea, and fully expect all sorts of undesirable effects.
It will be interesting to see what this means for the Snowdon Sherpa set of routes, they've seen some good improvements over the last couple of years with some nice timetable booklets, publications and a number of buses put into a dedicated Sherpa livery, but I still think it has a lot of untapped potential and could go a long way to easing the traffic/parking issues seen around Snowdonia whenever the sun comes out.
It will be interesting to see what this means for the Snowdon Sherpa set of routes, they've seen some good improvements over the last couple of years with some nice timetable booklets, publications and a number of buses put into a dedicated Sherpa livery, but I still think it has a lot of untapped potential and could go a long way to easing the traffic/parking issues seen around Snowdonia whenever the sun comes out.
This was all TFW led anyway I believe so I think they will continue it. Open top buses would be the best thing to do but I believe it was ruled out at tender stage. Other than that, maybe frequency but then you are also going to create issues for buses passing as the roads aren't the widest, and I think you will struggle to get any more buses into Pen-y-Pass at times, as it's already quite busy.
This was all TFW led anyway I believe so I think they will continue it. Open top buses would be the best thing to do but I believe it was ruled out at tender stage. Other than that, maybe frequency but then you are also going to create issues for buses passing as the roads aren't the widest, and I think you will struggle to get any more buses into Pen-y-Pass at times, as it's already quite busy.
The limitations you highlight are clearly not something quick or easy to solve, so I'm not really sure.
Is there anywhere that a proper Park and Ride system could be developed to bring visitors into the National Park area and the tourist spots such as Betws-Y-Coed in an attempt to alleviate traffic?
It's a shame open-toppers were ruled out, I'd love to do the Llanberis Pass on one!
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