Wales Bus Services

[Smwrff]

I cant see another thread on this, but Wales bus services are due for a major overhaul over the next few years with Transport for Wales (TfW) taking control of bus services across Wales through a franchising system. This will be introduced progressively starting in South West Wales (including Swansea) from 2027, then North Wales, then South East Wales.

Full details are here.

Their slogan is 'One Network. One Timetable. One Ticket' which reflects the plans to integrate bus timetables with train/metro services and using common ticketing.

I dont know how the branding of existing services such as Cardiff Bus will work, but you can already see a green TfW symbol together with a green bus symbol in use at Cardiff Bus Interchange (owned by TfW) compared to the red symbols used for TfW rail services. Maybe we will see the TrawsCymru services (operated by TfW) rebranded earlier ?

Wales has already introduced a £1 bus fare for under 21s and Labour have proposed a £2 fare for all in their Senedd manifesto - they wont win but the policy may be adopted by Plaid and so has a strong chance of implementation.

Lots of changes coming for Welsh buses.

 

[stadler]

I do wonder whether the Traws Cymru brand will still exist once all of the buses are franchised. They might just brand everything as Transport For Wales then. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Smwrff]

I think they will retain Traws Cymru brand for long distance services - to distinguish them for more local services... but all operated by TfW Bws?

 

[aron2smith]

Alongside Welsh Labour proposing a £2 cap, they announced 100 routes would be introduced across all of Wales. Shame details and specifics weren't given. Really they should subject this to public consultation so people can suggest gaps that need to be fixed, either routes or times of day where buses currently don't run. What came apparent travelling around Wales is buses in certain towns really don't want to connect with trains at all. Noticed that in Llanelli.

Also think Trawscymru should stick around to make it clear it's the go to for long distance journeys where trains can't cover either the full journey (eg Cardiff to Aberystwyth, changing at Carmarthen) or any of the journey (eg Bangor to Porthmadog). The brand could end up like the Welsh version of Scottish Citylink or Irish Expressway/ Northern Irish Goldliner.

 

[Smwrff]

Alongside Welsh Labour proposing a £2 cap, they announced 100 routes would be introduced across all of Wales. Shame details and specifics weren't given. Really they should subject this to public consultation so people can suggest gaps that need to be fixed, either routes or times of day where buses currently don't run. What came apparent travelling around Wales is buses in certain towns really don't want to connect with trains at all. Noticed that in Llanelli.

Also think Trawscymru should stick around to make it clear it's the go to for long distance journeys where trains can't cover either the full journey (eg Cardiff to Aberystwyth, changing at Carmarthen) or any of the journey (eg Bangor to Porthmadog). The brand could end up like the Welsh version of Scottish Citylink or Irish Expressway/ Northern Irish Goldliner.

On the 100 routes Labour seem to be trying to take credit for the process which is already underway - there are pulblic consultations - already underway in SW Wales and to follow in other regions.

I think that is the plan for TrawsCymru.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2026 ==

Another thought on branding - will the new services have similar branding to TfW Rail - but maybe switching the red trim for green ? That would look cool...

 

[markymark2000]

Alongside Welsh Labour proposing a £2 cap, they announced 100 routes would be introduced across all of Wales.

Interesting policy from the same Welsh Labour who refused to force TrawsCymru operators to accept the England fare cap where services run in England? The T12 in Oswestry/Gobowen never partook in the fare cap. And nor does M&H Coaches on the T8 (Chester to Mold costs £3 on Arriva, or £4.40 on TrawsCymru) or Newport Bus on the T7.

Almost as if there is an election coming up and they are trying to win votes, but as per refusing to acknowledge their track record or defend current decisions!

Shame details and specifics weren't given. Really they should subject this to public consultation so people can suggest gaps that need to be fixed, either routes or times of day where buses currently don't run.

Because the consultation in Powys went so well, we should definitely have a repeat of that. Ignoring all of the responses and introducing a vastly different network to what was proposed.
Or you could look at the South West Wales consultation which gave dismal information on the actual changes and used the stupid 'remix' platform which no one could work out what it meant for their bus services because the platform showed variations running every 213 minutes between 09:17 and 15:57 or nonsense like that, rather than a simple 'buses will run 2 hourly on variant A and variant b but will combine to run hourly'

Or on the other side of the consultation spectrum, you get a network designed by occasional elderly passengers who use their concessionary pass, and then you end up screwing over the regular fare paying passengers or miss out on core student flows. And you end up in the mess TrawsCymru has ended up in with the Lloyds network of having to spends tends of thousands of pounds extra on school buses because the network has been poorly designed not take into account the school/college flows. So now you have nearly empty service buses running around because 'pwetty timetable' and the idiotic 'thou must connect' policies, and then not far behind (or infront) is a school bus picking up passengers who before would have travelled on the normal service bus (was 1 fuller decker rather than now it's 1 coach and 1 nearly empty single decker)

What came apparent travelling around Wales is buses in certain towns really don't want to connect with trains at all. Noticed that in Llanelli.

You need to apply actual common sense to train station connections and not have a nonsense blanket policy of pushing bus/train integration at all costs. Llanelli is one such place where bus/train integration doesn't make much sense. Existing buses would be wasting time to serve the station, would often get caught with traffic queuing at the level crossings and in some of the cases the bus run to Swansea or Carmarthen anyway and so duplicate the train line. All of that faffing around and the extra cost of resources, while also losing many other passengers due to increased journey times. All because you want to force bus/train connections which only a small number of people are making. You have to put actual passenger demand as a higher priority than hypothetical bus/train connection demand (not least when it's being proven time and time again that people don't use these connections).

That said, it's worth mentioning Neath which developed plans for a great bus/train interchange which didn't come at a detriment to most passengers, improved connectivity with TrawsCymru and provided bus/train connections. And all of the councillors lobbied against it and lots of the public screamed out in opposition, and so now it's been shelved.

 

[K219UHA]

Interesting policy from the same Welsh Labour who refused to force TrawsCymru operators to accept the England fare cap where services run in England? The T12 in Oswestry/Gobowen never partook in the fare cap. And nor does M&H Coaches on the T8 (Chester to Mold costs £3 on Arriva, or £4.40 on TrawsCymru) or Newport Bus on the T7.

None of the Tanat Valley services in England in any case have ever taken part in the then £2 price cap or the £3 now.

 

[Markdvdman]

Well I struggle with the Llanelli but to train connection. The first 128 from Cross Hands at 6:40am arrives at 7:07am. The train leaves at 7:19am. 12 mins is not a lot of time to catch it and I have to run a lot of the way with a heavy backpack and bags. I have missed it before now. However, the bus USED to arrive 4 mins earlier and the train used to leave at 7:22am. So they did not think of integration there. However, a bus interchange is being built at Llanelli apparently, so that may negate any issues. It is a freak occasion, but if anything keeps me fit as I love intense walking over 10 miles + a day!

 

[aron2smith]

Because the consultation in Powys went so well, we should definitely have a repeat of that. Ignoring all of the responses and introducing a vastly different network to what was proposed.
Or you could look at the South West Wales consultation which gave dismal information on the actual changes and used the stupid 'remix' platform which no one could work out what it meant for their bus services because the platform showed variations running every 213 minutes between 09:17 and 15:57 or nonsense like that, rather than a simple 'buses will run 2 hourly on variant A and variant b but will combine to run hourly'

Or on the other side of the consultation spectrum, you get a network designed by occasional elderly passengers who use their concessionary pass, and then you end up screwing over the regular fare paying passengers or miss out on core student flows. And you end up in the mess TrawsCymru has ended up in with the Lloyds network of having to spends tends of thousands of pounds extra on school buses because the network has been poorly designed not take into account the school/college flows. So now you have nearly empty service buses running around because 'pwetty timetable' and the idiotic 'thou must connect' policies, and then not far behind (or infront) is a school bus picking up passengers who before would have travelled on the normal service bus (was 1 fuller decker rather than now it's 1 coach and 1 nearly empty single decker)

If buses don't go where people want to go, they won't use them. I'm not Welsh but where I live it's less hassle to walk 1.5 miles to use the trains, the bus would require two 10 minute walks and only be on it for 2 minutes, which is pointless and useless! No wonder the station and surrounding streets is chaos with cars!

Clockface timetables are not 'idiotic', if they can't be turn up and go, better to run something memorable every 30 or 60 minutes. Connections are a good idea especially if less frequent than hourly. Saw this while travelling in Ireland in September where low population can't justify many trains being more than 2 hourly and regional buses could be as low as 3 hourly or 5 or 6 return journeys a day. The wait between the two was around half an hour and a decent place to wait next door to the rail station, but also next to the town centre.

Sounds like what you are describing was a cockup through authorities who have lost the ability to plan transport and do it democratically.

Not saying the public (or each group) should have full weight or final say but should have at least some say for consideration. Not like councils can analyse people's journeys, they can't while transport is privately run. Ideally school/ college buses would get dedicated services even in rural areas.

Also agree that Remix platform is stupid, couldn't make heads or tails just now, why is so hard for them to just provide PDFs of the maps and information? Simple.

You need to apply actual common sense to train station connections and not have a nonsense blanket policy of pushing bus/train integration at all costs.

Common sense would be how most of Europe does it and get trains and buses working as closely together as possible, including with fares and timetables. The lack of demand is precisely because it has never been prioritised. Including through poor development and land use policies. Sticking bus and rail stations a mile or so apart is precisely the problem. Trains are a lot faster than bus, so why can't a better system be built than expecting someone in a village near Llanelli sit on a bus for the whole journey to Swansea rather than change to train for the same journey? Would open up their world.

Feel like both England and Wales could learn from places like the Netherlands on how it's done.

 

[RJ]

I’m still considering creating a cross-valley route from Ogmore Vale to Tylorstown via Treorchy - ran another test bus over the route last week to see if roads up the Caedu side of Ogmore Vale were passable. (Photograph of a Mercedes Citaro in a layby, and by one of the benches on Bwlch-Y-Clawdd Road, displaying route XV1 to Tylorstown attached).

Should probably do some research to see if commercial stage-carriage operations will still be welcome before going much further!

 

[Smwrff]

My understanding of the bus franchise system is that it will stop private operators running their own routes. You can only bid to operate the agreed routes.... I think...

 

[Dai Corner]

**

I’m still considering creating a cross-valley route from Ogmore Vale to Tylorstown via Treorchy - ran another test bus over the route last week to see if roads up the Caedu side of Ogmore Vale were passable. (Photograph of a Mercedes Citaro in a layby, and by one of the benches on Bwlch-Y-Clawdd Road, displaying route XV1 to Tylorstown attached).

Should probably do some research to see if commercial stage-carriage operations will still be welcome before going much further!

If you can get local politicians and bus activists/enthusiasts to back it you'll probably get the Welsh Government to pay you to operate it. It might be as an employee or sub-contractor of an international company rather than on your own account though.

 

[markymark2000]

If buses don't go where people want to go, they won't use them.

The lack of demand is precisely because it has never been prioritised.

Not entirely true. Lack of demand has on a number of cases led to a reduction in the amount of buses serving train stations.

• Arriva Llandudno has not long ago removed services from Llandudno Junction station because there was too much of a time penalty for the number of passengers using the stop. I've much experience stood at this stop and the usage is quite low except the Llew Jones 19. Most Arriva buses went through without stopping or it was 1 person and that 1 passenger isn't valuable enough considering the other local stops nearby (similarly why the 5 never diverted to the station despite operating so close).
• TrawsCymru T2 got pulled out of Aberystwyth Bow Street because no one used the stop and it was a needless time penalty for everyone else
• TrawsCymru T3 towards Wrexham now has Ruabon as set down only because of the need to speed up the service (thanks to the 20mph limits) and the usage at the station is small so it's easy to miss out unless there is actually someone wanting to get off.
• TrawsCymru T8 has had it's route changed in Chester multiple times to amend how it serves the train station and thankfully I work nearby the train station and so see the T8 regularly and again, very few people using the T8 at the train station.

Then there are at least 2 places where bus/train integration exists but is a waste of time because of low usage and lack of support from

• Port Talbot Parkway has the purpose built bus/train interchange and there's hardly anyone ever there. There's various reasons for the flop but even with the connections that do exist, people aren't really using them and you could remove the interchange and just build better 'through' stops. It's pretty telling when there are a number of instances in the morning and evenings (as well as the 9 and 202) where operators refuse to do the very small diversion/extension from the town bus station, to Parkway station!
• Barry Docks has had a brand new interchange built and the municipal bus operator is choosing not to serve it because the costs vs patronage doesn't stack up and the council aren't willing to pay for the extra resources. The only routes to go in here are the council tenders which only go in to prove a point that the interchange wasn't a waste of money. If there are so many people making bus/train connections, surely operators would be jumping at the opportunity to improve these connections?

That's not to say that some bus/train integrations don't work, they certainly do. But you HAVE to acknowledge that this isn't a one size fits all and there are lots of local considerations which you don't seem to take into account. There are places where you could very rightly push for more bus/train connections (such as Carmarthen and Milford Haven), but Llanelli is not one of those places.

Clockface timetables are not 'idiotic', if they can't be turn up and go, better to run something memorable every 30 or 60 minutes. Connections are a good idea especially if less frequent than hourly.

They are idiotic if it doesn't take into account local needs and journeys which people ACTUALLY make. What good is it running buses at 15:30 because of making pretty connections, if the major demand centre doesn't start it's demand until 15:45 (for a random example). You are happy to lose out on all of that extra demand, just to satisfy a pretty connection that hardly anyone makes? Or is your next step to force businesses and education establishments to adjust their times to suit the bus services because heaven forbid a route doesn't have pretty connections? Such socialist utopias sound great but in the real world, buses should run at the time where people need them. Not running at times which make a pretty timetable for someone in an office in Pontypridd, or an irregular enthusiast who travels to an area once in their lifetime.

 

[aron2smith]

They are idiotic if it doesn't take into account local needs and journeys which people ACTUALLY make. What good is it running buses at 15:30 because of making pretty connections, if the major demand centre doesn't start it's demand until 15:45 (for a random example). You are happy to lose out on all of that extra demand, just to satisfy a pretty connection that hardly anyone makes? Or is your next step to force businesses and education establishments to adjust their times to suit the bus services because heaven forbid a route doesn't have pretty connections? Such socialist utopias sound great but in the real world, buses should run at the time where people need them. Not running at times which make a pretty timetable for someone in an office in Pontypridd, or an irregular enthusiast who travels to an area once in their lifetime.

Surely under either franchised or private operations, the times would be adjusted at that hour? I'm assuming you are referring to places where buses wouldn't be more frequent than hourly?

I don't know why you are putting your frustrations on me though. I think public transport should meet the public's needs (it hasn't under privatisation) and that should work broadly the same way in a city, town or village in any country. Obviously the bus operations would be flexible to what locals need to. And I agree making everyone who needs a bus at 15:45 wait until 16:30 is not a good advertisement for the service.

What was idiotic was the blanket 20mph limits.

 

[markymark2000]

Surely under either franchised or private operations, the times would be adjusted at that hour?

Private operators currently just amend the times and break the connection. Each individual route runs for it's passengers and connections between routes are just sometimes there as a coincidence. (very few connections between routes are actually planned).

Under franchising, you could do the same thing but that isn't the method TFW are going for (based on TrawsCymru and the Gwynedd and Powys reviews). What TFW are doing (and what you are strongly pushing for in posts above), is putting so much focus on forcing everything to connect, and so a small change to one route either means amending the timetables for most of Wales.
For example, if you amend the T3 to match school demand in say Llangollen (random but plausible example). You then have to amend the times of the T3C, T8 and T10 in Corwen so those connections work. If you amend the T10 then the Sherpa needs rewriting as the S1 and S2 form combined timetables on sections, and all of the connections at Pen-Y-Pass. You then get down the route and you need to amend the T2 connection in Dolgellau and if you amend the T2 then the T22 in Porthmadog and T1/T5 in Aberystwyth need changing to accommodate. The G21 and G23 are largely built on connections to the TrawsCymru network and so you need to amend them. Before you know it, half of Wales needs a timetable change because of demand in Llangollen and it's seen as some awful thing for someone to dare break a connection. And this is before you consider that you want buses and trains to all connect.

Each route should run for the needs of it's own passengers and without any policy of forcing connections even when there is no demand. If connections are there, great but to force connections at any cost, even at a detriment to your actual regular travellers is just plain stupid.

I don't know why you are putting your frustrations on me though. I think public transport should meet the public's needs (it hasn't under privatisation) and that should work broadly the same way in a city, town or village in any country. Obviously the bus operations would be flexible to what locals need to.

I'm just highlighting the flaws in what you are saying. If you think that the bus networks faults now are due to privatisation, you're very much mistaken. Privatisation isn't perfect, but much like how the railways have become, buses are just seen as political pawns and the fact they are ran by a private company is just a scapegoat.

after working with Transport for Wales (TfW) on many projects, it has become abundantly clear that it is a money pit

Those employed in the main have no or little bus industry knowledge. That comes across very clearly.

But the planned execution of control by TfW is fundamentally flawed. The organisation is not ready for bus, with limited knowledge of an industry that, by design, is an art form.

Operators should be the delivery agents of bus services through a regional strategy, not via the creation of an expensive, inefficient quango.

Not my words.... that of the former managing director of a municipal operator in Wales (he was in post at the time this article was made).

 

[Woolos 22]

If they are planning 100 new routes in wales what one would you like them to be

 

[RJ]

Clockface is a nice aspiration, but unless traffic levels and thus running times are consistent throughout the day. I cannot imagine this is the case around Cardiff, Pontypridd or the Rhondda south of Porth at least. Clockface is only really achievable at one timing point nominated as the pinch / anchor point in each direction. It also has a tendency to get thrown out if a reliability scheme goes in which involves widening headways to deliver a service without the cost of an additional vehicle. Apologies for all the jargon, I spent years working as a bus service planner and separately as a schedule compiler.

As for station connectivity, sure a station might generate some trips, but if the research in the franchising document is right then almost 80% of households in Wales have access to a car. It stands to reason that some, but not a huge number of people will be using the bus to connect with a train, so eating into cycle times with detours to station fronts might not always be worthwhile.

I know in London, bus/bus and bus/train connections are virtually non-existent and there are reasons for that (and it’s not because of higher service frequencies). Even where manual intervention has gone in to force it, it’s usually temporary in practice.

 

[aron2smith]

Clockface is a nice aspiration, but unless traffic levels and thus running times are consistent throughout the day. I cannot imagine this is the case around Cardiff, Pontypridd or the Rhondda south of Porth at least. Clockface is only really achievable at one timing point nominated as the pinch / anchor point in each direction. It also has a tendency to get thrown out if a reliability scheme goes in which involves widening headways to deliver a service without the cost of an additional vehicle. Apologies for all the jargon, I spent years working as a bus service planner and separately as a schedule compiler.

As for station connectivity, sure a station might generate some trips, but if the research in the franchising document is right then almost 80% of households in Wales have access to a car. It stands to reason that some, but not a huge number of people will be using the bus to connect with a train, so eating into cycle times with detours to station fronts might not always be worthwhile.

I know in London, bus/bus and bus/train connections are virtually non-existent and there are reasons for that (and it’s not because of higher service frequencies). Even where manual intervention has gone in to force it, it’s usually temporary in practice.

It's true in London they are not timetabled for connections but in reality, connections are very easy to make there, even at night (London buses really try to maintain an even service despite traffic, which can be expensive). Nearly all routes run every 12 minutes or better, even many residential routes. Buses less than a 20 minute frequency are few and far between and relegated to the fringes or awkward spots. Tube every couple minutes. Many trains, Overground and National Rail run every 15 minutes or so. In that framework, a Swiss style timetable just isn't necessary but if the population is only there for an hourly or less service, an effort should be made.

The train part is only really comparable in the Valleys (possibly true in North Wales in a couple years) but luckily most of the towns are small and walkable, the ideal situation, with buses providing mostly but not exclusively orbital routes.

I think saying 80% of people have a car to go to the station is a cop out, sorry. First what about the 20% who are massively inconvenienced and who's opportunities are limited as a result? And there must be a proportion of drivers who don't want to always drive to the station and would use a bus if a convenient one existed or cycle instead if it felt safe to do so. We went wrong when cars were assumed to be a jack of all trades for transport, in many circumstances they are not ideal and just compound problems and inequalities. Who seriously wants to park at an airport or a hospital for example if they can avoid it?

My local station is the first outside London, on paper the buses stop 10 minute walk away in the local shopping area but because of when the buses arrive and because they are unreliable, this walk is enough to cause problems. Naturally nearly everyone drives to the station, in peak times, the car park is full and residents in nearby streets face tons of problems from commuters cars. If a town route connected all the residential areas up to 2 miles to this station, even a half hourly service would prove useful because of the high frequency of trains to London.

Obviously nowhere in Wales really has the population to cause these sort of issues, but surely feeder bus routes to various stations in the Valleys would prove useful to anyone working in Cardiff, Newport or Swansea? Same with towns in the north like Wrexham, Llandudno and Bangor.

I definitely agree traffic is a problem (spontaneous road works too!) but I think it's important to make lower frequency buses have memorable times for them to be successful. Part of that means the same minutes every hour or so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2026 ==

I'm just highlighting the flaws in what you are saying. If you think that the bus networks faults now are due to privatisation, you're very much mistaken. Privatisation isn't perfect, but much like how the railways have become, buses are just seen as political pawns and the fact they are ran by a private company is just a scapegoat.

I don't disagree but it's the private companies fault that there are gaps in the wider network and timetables at one end (unprofitable routes) and duplication that is apparently 'competition' at the other end (profitable routes). Could have a better bus service just from the current resources being used in a more balanced way if it was planned for people rather than just profit.

after working with Transport for Wales (TfW) on many projects, it has become abundantly clear that it is a money pit

Those employed in the main have no or little bus industry knowledge. That comes across very clearly.

But the planned execution of control by TfW is fundamentally flawed. The organisation is not ready for bus, with limited knowledge of an industry that, by design, is an art form.

Operators should be the delivery agents of bus services through a regional strategy, not via the creation of an expensive, inefficient quango.

Not my words.... that of the former managing director of a municipal operator in Wales (he was in post at the time this article was made).

Certainly an interesting thing to say and strongly agree there needs to be a regional strategy, both in England and Wales. Question is what would people in the bus industry do if they were able to just focus on connecting people with each other and wider society rather than just what makes the shareholders and beancounters happy?

 

[markymark2000]

If they are planning 100 new routes in wales what one would you like them to be

Interesting question. I'd like to see the return of the Denbigh 66 rather than running the silly Fflecsi up and down the same road all day. Would be far better as a scheduled local bus service.
A new Heads of the Valleys style route linking Brynmawr to Merthyr which could be done in half the time of the 76 (as the 76 diverts around Ebbw Vale and Tredegar). Of course a Merthyr to Swansea link is missing too which I think is needed to return but not sure if you'd have that separate or part of this Brynmawr faster service.
Wrexham to Ellesmere would be another good one to complement the Pats 146 but also provide new links to Oswestry which is a town really suffering from a poor bus network. There are school flows here too which could be taken advantage of to provide a decent all day service.

The rest of the changes that should happen are enhancements to existing routes. School day only routes which should have an all day service or extensions/changes to existing route. Or once per week 'market' buses which should really be running at a few trips per day.

Nearly all routes run every 12 minutes or better, even many residential routes.

60% of TFL routes classify as high frequency. I wouldn't class that as 'nearly all'
Source: TFL document. Section 5.4 on page 13.

Obviously nowhere in Wales really has the population to cause these sort of issues, but surely feeder bus routes to various stations in the Valleys would prove useful to anyone working in Cardiff, Newport or Swansea? Same with towns in the north like Wrexham, Llandudno and Bangor.

Have you actually looked at any of these places properly to understand their current transport provision? Because it looks like you've just found a map of North Wales and picked out a few random towns and hoped for the best.

Wrexham on the Borderlands line stops often so many people are within walking distance of the stations. A few of the station have either direct buses into Wrexham anyway, have plenty of buses already operating past them, or are in silly places which you can't serve reliably with a bus. That's before you look at reliability which is poor and so people are best driving to the station so then they can keep driving to work when their train inevitably gets cancelled.
On the Wrexham-Shrewsbury line, Gobowen and Chirk have regular buses to Wrexham (and train ticket sales data shown on https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/ showed only 53 journeys per day travelling between Gobowen/Chirk and Wrexham). Ruabon has 6 buses per hour to Wrexham and as proven with the T3, passengers making interchanges are minimal as people just stay on the bus to go direct.

Llandudno and Bangor, I'd love to know where you think these commuters are coming from where they don't already have a better bus service than they have train service? That's before you consider the fact buses stop closer to the towns than the trains do. Why is anyone going to faff around going between buses and trains, when the bus they are on to start with, goes direct to where they are going? More effort, more cost, zero gain.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting question. I'd like to see the return of the Denbigh 66 rather than running the silly Fflecsi up and down the same road all day. Would be far better as a scheduled local bus service.
A new Heads of the Valleys style route linking Brynmawr to Merthyr which could be done in half the time of the 76 (as the 76 diverts around Ebbw Vale and Tredegar). Of course a Merthyr to Swansea link is missing too which I think is needed to return but not sure if you'd have that separate or part of this Brynmawr faster service.
Wrexham to Ellesmere would be another good one to complement the Pats 146 but also provide new links to Oswestry which is a town really suffering from a poor bus network. There are school flows here too which could be taken advantage of to provide a decent all day service.

The rest of the changes that should happen are enhancements to existing routes. School day only routes which should have an all day service or extensions/changes to existing route. Or once per week 'market' buses which should really be running at a few trips per day.


60% of TFL routes classify as high frequency. I wouldn't class that as 'nearly all'
Source: TFL document. Section 5.4 on page 13.


Have you actually looked at any of these places properly to understand their current transport provision? Because it looks like you've just found a map of North Wales and picked out a few random towns and hoped for the best.

Wrexham on the Borderlands line stops often so many people are within walking distance of the stations. A few of the station have either direct buses into Wrexham anyway, have plenty of buses already operating past them, or are in silly places which you can't serve reliably with a bus. That's before you look at reliability which is poor and so people are best driving to the station so then they can keep driving to work when their train inevitably gets cancelled.
On the Wrexham-Shrewsbury line, Gobowen and Chirk have regular buses to Wrexham (and train ticket sales data shown on https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/ showed only 53 journeys per day travelling between Gobowen/Chirk and Wrexham). Ruabon has 6 buses per hour to Wrexham and as proven with the T3, passengers making interchanges are minimal as people just stay on the bus to go direct.

Llandudno and Bangor, I'd love to know where you think these commuters are coming from where they don't already have a better bus service than they have train service? That's before you consider the fact buses stop closer to the towns than the trains do. Why is anyone going to faff around going between buses and trains, when the bus they are on to start with, goes direct to where they are going? More effort, more cost, zero gain.

I agree with much of this. I’m on hols at the moment or I’d point out even more examples/issues.

I might add that a better use of TfW time and money would be to tackle the reprehensible state of roadside facilities and information especially in North Wales - Flintshire’s is so bad, it is scarcely believable

 

[markymark2000]

I might add that a better use of TfW time and money would be to tackle the reprehensible state of roadside facilities and information especially in North Wales - Flintshire’s is so bad, it is scarcely believable

North Wales roadside infrastructure is the best of the best, I don't know what you mean.
Such as this bus shelter in Gronant where no expense was spared.


Or the main bus stops in Flint which are so old they should probably now be listed and put up in a museum. The 20/21 only finished in 2014 and I trust that updating the numbers on the flag is on their to-do list and I am sure the bus times computer not working is just a one of technical glitch. (photos taken by me in Oct 2025)



In all seriousness though, this isn't just a North Wales issue, it's rife across the whole country. I don't think I can say any Welsh authority is actually good at roadside stuff because even where it exists, often it's done by an operator who has only provided details on their times and completely ignored all other routes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

North Wales roadside infrastructure is the best of the best, I don't know what you mean.
Such as this bus shelter in Gronant where no expense was spared.
View attachment 195893

Or the main bus stops in Flint which are so old they should probably now be listed and put up in a museum. The 20/21 only finished in 2014 and I trust that updating the numbers on the flag is on their to-do list and I am sure the bus times computer not working is just a one of technical glitch. (photos taken by me in Oct 2025)
View attachment 195895View attachment 195894View attachment 195896


In all seriousness though, this isn't just a North Wales issue, it's rife across the whole country. I don't think I can say any Welsh authority is actually good at roadside stuff because even where it exists, often it's done by an operator who has only provided details on their times and completely ignored all other routes.

In fairness, Cardiff, Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire are better (but only relatively - they’re not good by any stretch).

However, there’s some bad ones in South Wales but Flintshire and Gwynedd are shocking. Denbighshire is only slightly better.

Sort the basics out before worrying about bus/rail integration. And as you say, there’s lots of places where integration simply isn’t worth the hassle because of where the station is.

 

[markymark2000]

In fairness, Cardiff, Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire are better (but only relatively - they’re not good by any stretch).

Carmarthenshire I call home to the unmarked bus stops as most of their stops have no flags, no timetable cases, no bus stop cages. But the areas also aren't hail and ride. You are just expected to guess where the bus stops are. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Monmouthshire I have had issues at Monmouth bus station with poor information on which bus stops on which stand which is really unhelpful.

Denbighshire is only slightly better.

Denbighshire the only thing going for them better than Flintshire is that they most of their timetable cases are blank. No information is better than 10 years out of date information. There are some stops which had timetables put up by Arriva in 2022 I think but these are all out of date now and both Arriva and the council refuse to remove or update them.

 

[Dai Corner]

We shouldn't confuse "100 new bus routes' with "100 more bus routes" . I don't think there's any more money going into the subsidy pot so there are unlikely to be any more buses on the road. There will no doubt be 100+ changes to the network which has been refined over the decades though, not all for the better.

 

[stuu]

I know in London, bus/bus and bus/train connections are virtually non-existent and there are reasons for that (and it’s not because of higher service frequencies). Even where manual intervention has gone in to force it, it’s usually temporary in practice.

This is absolute nonsense. Go and stand outside Brixton tube and observe the enormous numbers of people getting off buses and onto the underground. The same happens all over London

 

[DelW]

This is absolute nonsense. Go and stand outside Brixton tube and observe the enormous numbers of people getting off buses and onto the underground. The same happens all over London

Similar at Finsbury Park, where at Wells Terrace thousands of people a day transfer between bus routes W3, W7 and 210, and the Piccadilly and Victoria lines. But they don't need timetabling as connections, at peak times both tubes and buses are running at 3 - 5 minute frequencies.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

My local station is the first outside London, on paper the buses stop 10 minute walk away in the local shopping area but because of when the buses arrive and because they are unreliable, this walk is enough to cause problems. Naturally nearly everyone drives to the station, in peak times, the car park is full and residents in nearby streets face tons of problems from commuters cars. If a town route connected all the residential areas up to 2 miles to this station, even a half hourly service would prove useful because of the high frequency of trains to London.

Obviously nowhere in Wales really has the population to cause these sort of issues, but surely feeder bus routes to various stations in the Valleys would prove useful to anyone working in Cardiff, Newport or Swansea? Same with towns in the north like Wrexham, Llandudno and Bangor.

They tried this in the Welsh Valleys for many years, it didn't work. There were multiple bus links connecting local settlements off the rail lines to their local stations and they never became viable or even sufficiently in demand that the councils could justify continued funding. The same has happened in most places this has been tried, there isn't enough volume of rail users prepared to use a bus service to get to the station to even produce something busy enough to meet council funding criteria let alone be close to a commercial proposition.

It might be possible to produce a service like this that works in some form but it requires all sorts of compromises that it is unlikely it would be accepted. Restricting parking at the stations (a major income stream for the railways currently) and surrounding streets to prevent people driving to the station, a heavily subsidised network at the sort of volumes that simply aren't viable under current funding mechanisms in the UK and changing how bus services are regulated to allow buses to guarantee connections in a manner that is difficult to do currently (frequency and connectional reliability off the trains, particularly in the evenings, is often the achilles heel of these schemes).

I don't disagree but it's the private companies fault that there are gaps in the wider network and timetables at one end (unprofitable routes) and duplication that is apparently 'competition' at the other end (profitable routes). Could have a better bus service just from the current resources being used in a more balanced way if it was planned for people rather than just profit.

If you move resources from busy and profitable routes to less busy routes the income doesn't move with them. All that happens is you have more buses running unprofitable services and fewer buses running profitable ones reducing income on those routes so there is less income to cover the losses elsewhere (if you reduce frequencies on busy routes passengers stop using the bus as it is no longer meeting their specific needs (longer waits or fuller buses for instance). This is what happened in the 70's that caused the big declines that we still haven't recovered from.

People often talk about overbussing of profitable services but if the service is profitable it isn't over bussed as the income covers the resources deployed and that resource is generating the demand to pay for it (technically it is underbussed as you are providing less resource than the income could support but generally there is an acceptance of the need to make some profit from somewhere). Often the most profitable services are those carrying poorer passengers (higher population density in these areas, fewer multi-car households and more people working in local and central jobs like retail) so this thought process means taking profit from poorer passengers to pay for services to areas of higher average income whilst making the service to poorer people who need the bus worst.

If you want better bus services you need more money into the industry, anything else is just "robbing Peter to pay Paul" and will not offer enough to make a difference - all but a few companies (including subsidiaries of big groups) are only just about making enough money to maintain fleet replacement so there isn't much fat to redistribute in reality to pay for lots of marginal or loss making services for the 'public good' because we think they should exist - no matter how much we think they should on the principle of social good.

This is absolute nonsense. Go and stand outside Brixton tube and observe the enormous numbers of people getting off buses and onto the underground. The same happens all over London

It may be pedantry but I would say this isn't fixed or planned "connections" but people making a choice - but I would suspect it is primarily due to the high frequencies of both modes making that connection almost seamless (the fact it is London and car usage is often lower in many parts of London will also contribute signifcantly because owning and using a car in London is more difficult - congestion charge, LEZ, difficulty of parking outside many homes). Whether you would see that volume changing if you were switching from a half-hourly bus to a 20-min train at a station with a large car park is a question - experience would say not based on the rest of the country.

 

[RJ]

This is absolute nonsense. Go and stand outside Brixton tube and observe the enormous numbers of people getting off buses and onto the underground. The same happens all over London

The context of the discussion was about scheduled connections between services. You’re talking about something different.

 

[Markdvdman]

I have to be honest a Merthyr - Swansea bus is badly needed again. Stopping at Neath Railway Station made this a great link for travelling further west to Llanelli and beyond!

 

[aron2smith]

In all seriousness though, this isn't just a North Wales issue, it's rife across the whole country. I don't think I can say any Welsh authority is actually good at roadside stuff because even where it exists, often it's done by an operator who has only provided details on their times and completely ignored all other routes.

All your examples are sadly examples of austerity. All contribute to an area feeling neglected and you're right it's seen all across the country. Potholes being an obvious complaint. I think what struck me about visiting the smaller places in Wales was all the grand buildings everywhere but falling apart and abandoned and abandoned industry littered across the former mining areas. Sad how nothing seemed to replace what was lost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2026 ==

If you move resources from busy and profitable routes to less busy routes the income doesn't move with them. All that happens is you have more buses running unprofitable services and fewer buses running profitable ones reducing income on those routes so there is less income to cover the losses elsewhere (if you reduce frequencies on busy routes passengers stop using the bus as it is no longer meeting their specific needs (longer waits or fuller buses for instance). This is what happened in the 70's that caused the big declines that we still haven't recovered from.

People often talk about overbussing of profitable services but if the service is profitable it isn't over bussed as the income covers the resources deployed and that resource is generating the demand to pay for it (technically it is underbussed as you are providing less resource than the income could support but generally there is an acceptance of the need to make some profit from somewhere). Often the most profitable services are those carrying poorer passengers (higher population density in these areas, fewer multi-car households and more people working in local and central jobs like retail) so this thought process means taking profit from poorer passengers to pay for services to areas of higher average income whilst making the service to poorer people who need the bus worst.

If you want better bus services you need more money into the industry, anything else is just "robbing Peter to pay Paul" and will not offer enough to make a difference - all but a few companies (including subsidiaries of big groups) are only just about making enough money to maintain fleet replacement so there isn't much fat to redistribute in reality to pay for lots of marginal or loss making services for the 'public good' because we think they should exist - no matter how much we think they should on the principle of social good.

I just get the impression in some parts of the country, different operators 'compete' for the sake of it which seriously risks turning a reasonably used route into a marginal one, as there isn't that much demand in reality for it to be divided. So 1 route can make reasonable money, but a 2nd one undercutting it and deliberately running 5 or 10 minutes means both could fail, which is really disruptive. https://busandtrainuser.com/2026/01/13/go-bus-has-another-go-at-arriva/

This example in Kent is exactly what I'm talking about and instead of the 'competitor' offering something useful and new, seems to be lazily trying to run the incumbent off the road which in the long run leads to a much worse service in the area and even less people using it.

I think the issue with deregulation is nothing is planned out and in busy towns and cities, there needs to be at least some coordination between bus routes. So it's not about running less buses where they are needed, but ensuring a more even service runs across a wider area. That is a planning issue.

Just wondering if there's anyone here who lives in Wales who could compare the services that exist now to what existed before deregulation and see what changed, what's better, what's worse etc. Just in most places, it led to more fragmented services, more expensive, gaps in the network (especially cross-boundary) and a lack of accountability. But that's how it seems in cities at least. I think the loss of cross-subsidy was bad for buses too.