Waiting in the cold at Euston

[D1009]

What other business is so oversubscribed with customers that it would almost improve most peoples view of it if it did put a few off?!

I know a few pubs like that.

 

[LeylandLen]

I see this thread is basically for LM at Euston. I am a Virgin ' customer' using the WCML up to Manchester/Preston. Its interesting reading how LM deals with its passengers.
My observations with Virgin trains is that turn around times can be quick at times. I can understand that platform space is at a premium especially at peak times. Virgin use the outside platforms, that's 1,2, 17, 18. It can be a long walk if your reserved seat is in coach A or B, usually at the north end of Euston , and on an 11 car Pendelinos! The trains are usually ready to board after being announced, even though the train is being tidied up, rubbish removed from prev incoming service. My only gripe is that they only upload the seat reservations sometimes AFTER passengers have boarded and can be sitting in ' reserved' seats. I can understand it can be very annoying waiting on the platform at Euston ( they can be cold and ARE dimly lit and not very 'passenger friendly are they ?) with doors locked on a 350.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Which is fine if you know which end of the train is the "front".

"The four coaches furthest from the ticket barrier" would be less confusing and might mean fewer people miss their train. Or didn't they used to have boards, at least at either Charing Cross or Victoria, which said "This is the front of the train"?

At a terminus it is blindingly obvious which end is the front of a service that is going to leave. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've been known to check with the compass on my iPhone to work out in which direction we will be leaving the station, and hence which is the "front". If the train is just stood there, parked up on a through platform, it isn't obvious to a passenger who may not have used that route before, and/or has no sense of direction!

White lights at the front, red lights at the rear.

 

[Francis]

Catching the 06.52 Crewe to Euston via Stoke and Trent Valley, the LM train is in on Platform 2 or 3, but the doors don't seem to open until about 06.47. 06.45 if you're lucky, 06.49 if unlucky. You have to kick your heels on a chilly damp platform. Lights are on, engine running, but doors kept firmly shut. I don't understand why. Do they think we are going to trash the carriages before it departs?

 

[Llanigraham]

At a terminus it is blindingly obvious which end is the front of a service that is going to leave. :roll:.

It might be, but people still ask!!

 

[A-driver]

Catching the 06.52 Crewe to Euston via Stoke and Trent Valley, the LM train is in on Platform 2 or 3, but the doors don't seem to open until about 06.47. 06.45 if you're lucky, 06.49 if unlucky. You have to kick your heels on a chilly damp platform. Lights are on, engine running, but doors kept firmly shut. I don't understand why. Do they think we are going to trash the carriages before it departs?

At a guess the train has been stabled there all night or come empty out of the sidings with just a driver on. As far as I'm aware the driver has no door controls, only the guard can release them so you would be waiting for the guard to arrive and open the doors.

At that time in the morning if hazard a guess that it's the guards first bit of his job so once he probably only books on 15mins or so before departure. Once he has read all his notices, collected his equipment and walked down from the SOP to the platform it will be only a few mins before departure.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If the 350s are the same as the 450s then door controls are in the cab, beside the desk and on the rear panels. There maybe a rule within the company to say that drivers must not enable the doors.

We have a rule that says that. So unless the guard gives you permission to do so, the doors stay locked and passengers stay in the cold & wet or snow.

 

[RJ]

I assume this is normal London Midland customer service.

That would be a wrongful assumption, I suspect you know that already else you wouldn't have created a thread about it.

 

[DeeGee]

Which is fine if you know which end of the train is the "front".

"The four coaches furthest from the ticket barrier" would be less confusing and might mean fewer people miss their train. Or didn't they used to have boards, at least at either Charing Cross or Victoria, which said "This is the front of the train"?

At a terminus it is blindingly obvious which end is the front of a service that is going to leave. :roll:

To you, perhaps. How about an unaccompanied child? Or someone with a learning disability? The rear of a train has a windscreen and a cab. It looks like the front of a train.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sometimes I can get just 1 minute to set up the train. Typically from birth or any train that has been sitting there on a platform for some time you are given 5 mins to "PC" the train. So 5 minutes before the train is due to depart I turn up. Open the cab up, brake test, set radio, lights etc then open the passenger doors. Just another reason why doors may not be open till just before departure. More behind the scenes stuff no-one wants to listen to :/

The train lights and heating etc are on for a reason. On our side at least. Trains are not regularly birthed fully. When you fully birth a train you switch everything off (at least on a networker) That includes the heating. You also then need to "PB" the train before it enters service. That takes a specific amount of time (it ain't quick)

What would you prefer ? Have the train sitting there lights out and fully switched off then have the Driver come along nice and early to prep the train into service then have passengers board a cold train. Or have it sitting there with its lights and heating on ready to go at a moments notice. Have the Driver turn up just before boarding, pop the doors and passengers step into a warm train?

There is also nothing worse than kicking passengers off a service because of a fault. Most of the time you can be assured that when a train is sitting there that it is ready for service. I actually do not like passengers sitting in a train that still has time before departure. Once I get there and PC the train I am confident there isn't a fault. I am there, the train is ready. Lets boogie. Too many times I have arrived only to find a fault or cannot get the brakes off then passengers get booted off. What if there is no Driver and taking their mandatory personal needs break ? Sitting there is also not really preferable as the service may be cancelled. Again more boring, tedious reasons why the train doors may not open until its about to depart.

 

[Taunton]

Until the person in charge of the train or a similarly qualified member of platform staff deems it safe and necessary for you to get on the train, you will not be permitted entry to it.

Real Time Trains tells me it left on time. What more do you want?

Real customer primacy at work here, as so often in the rail industry :roll:

In my long experience, and probably for generations before that, trains were always able to be boarded at the starting point, well before the crew arrived. When did this procedure get changed, and why? Oh, and in this experience, we were never, ever, put off the train "because of a fault". Why do we envisage such unreliability nowadays that it drives the overall procedure?

 

[yorksrob]

When did this procedure get changed, and why?

When we got rid of proper trains with doors which one could simply open and get in.

 

[Geezertronic]

To you, perhaps. How about an unaccompanied child? Or someone with a learning disability? The rear of a train has a windscreen and a cab. It looks like the front of a train.

At a Terminus station such as Euston, it is blindingly obvious which way the train will depart since there is only one way it can go without ending up on the concourse

 

[ComUtoR]

Real customer primacy at work here, as so often in the rail industry :roll:

In my long experience, and probably for generations before that, trains were always able to be boarded at the starting point, well before the crew arrived. When did this procedure get changed, and why?

I remember shutters (as previously posted) Times change.

Rostering - Every minute has been squeezed out of train crew diagrams
Traction - No slam doors so its no longer a free for all
Conflicts - Higher volume of trains leads to confusion on the platform, units splitting etc.
Safety - Your safe on the concourse and the risk to passengers at the platform train interface is greatly reduced. Also being left on the train where there may not be CCTV is also a passenger risk.
Passenger Volume - Not advertising the service keeps the passenger numbers on the platform to a manageable level
Security - Yes this is a major security problem and doors are now usually locked out when units are left.
Litigation - With a blame culture the way it is everything has been cut to the bone. Leaving passengers to their own devices on an insecure train opens the railway up to the above listed issues.
Vandalism - Ever had a train carriage completely gratified with the C word ? Windows/Doors/Floor ?

BR wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

 

[yorksrob]

Vandalism - Ever had a train carriage completely gratified with the C word ? Windows/Doors/Floor ?

The public wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

Corrected that for you.

I remember being turfed off of a train for "safety reasons" because it was being split.

This was in spite of the fact that in my home town, trains regularly split en route, and passengers aren't turfed off.

 

[SPADTrap]

I remember being turfed off of a train for "safety reasons" because it was being split.

This was in spite of the fact that in my home town, trains regularly split en route, and passengers aren't turfed off.

Not sure that's a great safety mantra "its done elsewhere so..."

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure that's a great safety mantra "its done elsewhere so..."

Assuming the "elsewhere" is governed by the same safety law, then it works fine for me.

 

[Pumbaa]

I can only assume it's local rules that LM have. I can certainly attest to having been stood on the platform until 2 mins before departure countless times, on trains that haven't split/joined and have only been in the platform for around 30 mins.

Waterloo has no such issues; platform staff happily release doors as soon as the train is ready to board for passengers, and there's no requirement to secure the train if it's being left in the platform without a crew.

 

[PeterY]

I can only assume it's local rules that LM have. I can certainly attest to having been stood on the platform until 2 mins before departure countless times, on trains that haven't split/joined and have only been in the platform for around 30 mins.

Waterloo has no such issues; platform staff happily release doors as soon as the train is ready to board for passengers, and there's no requirement to secure the train if it's being left in the platform without a crew.

I've never come across this at other Termini. So it seems basically a LM issue. Looks like LM know how to look after their customers.

 

[bramling]

Not a problem at Charing Cross where it is standard practice for SouthEastern drivers to leave the train with all doors unlocked. Passengers will start boarding, cleaners will run through emptying bins and collecting rubbish. A few minutes before departure the driver will turn up, do his checks, program the PIS, close the doors then leave.

Why is it so difficult elsewhere?

Seems to be completely inconsistent across the country:

1) Northern Rail / FTPE - *always* seem to lock up trains when unattended, even if only for a few minutes. At many termini in the north of England it's common practice to turn up at the platform to find the train locked up, only opened up when the crew turn up a few minutes before departure.

2) London area TOCs hardly ever do it. At King's Cross it's generally common practice for trains to always be left open. The only time this isn't done is if there's two leaving from the same platform, or very occasionally if a train has arrived as ECS and the driver has left it closed up. (This can be annoying first thing Saturday morning, after a night shift you don't want to be standing around for 30-40 minutes).

3) From experience at Glasgow, I don't think Scotrail tend to do it either - but I don't have regular experience so this may be incorrect.

 

[SPADTrap]

Assuming the "elsewhere" is governed by the same safety law, then it works fine for me.

But not the same company procedure.

 

[TUC]

As discussed above, TOCs, leave the train locked until the last few minutes if you must, but please don't have the cheek to regular allow 'boarding' to be shown on the display screen for 10 minutes before boarding is actually happening. It's actions like that which really annoy passengers.

 

[ComUtoR]

Looks like LM know how to look after their customers.

Yep. They hate you. They don't care about train security or passenger safety. They really don't care about keeping costs down by cutting crew diagrams. They really and truly don't care about looking after their units.

Nope must be a LM issue. It certainly doesn't happen at Victoria or Charing Cross.

'boarding' to be shown on the display screen for 10 minutes before boarding is actually happening. It's actions like that which really annoy passengers.

That I can support and fully agree with.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the issue is just that the boards say 'boarding' when it isn't then I think you just need to get over it as its a pretty minor issue!

It isn't "a minor issue" though, not in the middle of winter when late evening temperatures are often below freezing. If the train isn't ready for boarding then it shouldn't be announced as ready for boarding. At least then you can stay on the concourse where it is warm- there is nowhere warm to wait on Euston's platforms (there isn't even anywhere to sit on most of them) and once you are through the ticket barrier you can't go back to the concourse.

My issue is announcing a train as ready for boarding and then having everyone stand there for 20 minutes in the freezing cold. It's just rubbish customer service- something which London Midland specialise in at Euston (but don't anywhere else).

At a Terminus station such as Euston, it is blindingly obvious which way the train will depart since there is only one way it can go without ending up on the concourse

I don't think that is what confuses people, tbh. It's really just the ambiguity of the word "front", which really could either be the front of the train in direction of travel or it could be the first carriage you come to. Enough people make the mistake to make it clear its ambiguous.

 

[Taunton]

When we got rid of proper trains with doors which one could simply open and get in.

Unfortunately for your argument some of my youthful experience was spent at West Kirby, terminus station on the Wirral line, where power doors had been in use since before just about anybody on here was born.

 

[GadgetMan]

This afternoon I caught the 15.54 London Midland service out of Euston. Despite the lights and no doubt heating being on inside the train, passengers were left standing on the platform until two minutes before departure.

I assume this is normal London Midland customer service.

The train that form this service comes empty stock from Camden, therefore DOO. So will not have its doors released until the Guard gets there after their inward working or PNB.

There was also a further change at some point, whereby the passenger doors are only released by the guard, never the driver. This was most noticeable on the 0715 from Bletchley, which is brought in from the sidings about 10 minutes before departure; the driver who brings it in used to release the doors, whereas now they wait for the guard to do so, who arrives much later. I wonder if this is the more noticeable factor - do guards generally get to the train later than drivers, perhaps as they have less to do before departure?

I suspect both of these were always the rule and have more recently become enforced.

Neil

Although us Drivers aren't strictly allowed to release doors, some of us still do.

With me it now depends on the time of day and location;

I recently bought a unit out the sidings early morning, released doors when on the platform. Signal clears, departure time comes and............ no Guard. Signalman calls me up saying he's been informed the Guard has failed to book on and there are no spares available so I'm to run empty stock in my booked path.

Hmm, "sorry signaller, I can't depart straight away as I've let the passengers board so will have to empty the train out again. Do you want the signal back for the train due through in a couple of minutes?"

Followed by me missing my booked path, waiting for 2 passenger trains and a freight to go through. Then crawling behind them to destination, getting there late for my return working which was also then delayed as a result.

If the 350s are the same as the 450s then door controls are in the cab, beside the desk and on the rear panels. There maybe a rule within the company to say that drivers must not enable the doors.

We have a rule that says that. So unless the guard gives you permission to do so, the doors stay locked and passengers stay in the cold & wet or snow.

The Controls to the right/left of Driver's desk have been disabled. The buttons on the back wall still work with the desk live as long as the Guard isn't keyed in elsewhere on the train.



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Another reason for trains being locked up is a UPC (Unit Previously Coupled) test. When the trains are prepped at the start of service, all cab controls etc are also tested. If units are coupled up then the intermediate cabs cannot be tested as the controls are dead.

For example an 8 car train may get prepped and goes North from Northampton to New Street. The units are then split into 2x4 car. The South unit (which now has a fully prepped South Cab and unprepped North Cab) gets driven from New Street to Euston using the South End Cab. On arrival into Euston the Guards diagram will say to lock the unit up for the North Cab to be UPC tested. So they lock the doors off and disappear for their next working/PNB. Driver then comes along to UPC the cab and we're back to waiting for the Guard to come release the doors prior to departure.

Some units sit at Euston for 1Hr+. Leaving the doors open isn't an option as the platform will have other services arriving/departing on top leading to confusion as mentioned by others.

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To address the coupling with/without passengers on board. I think the major differences are down to modern couplers. Older units have to be literally slammed together for a reliable couple, this could easily lead to passengers been thrown around and claiming for whiplash/injuries.

The more modern trains latch themselves together when you get them close enough, so absolutely no need for a jolt when they join.

 

[jon0844]

When you watch a train come in, white lights facing you, that's the front of the train. Then it switches and becomes the rear.

Can't we accept that people can be unsure what front refers to, even if it's obvious the train can only go one way? Far better to leave no doubt by wording things clearly.

Some people can be 99% sure of something and yet still get worried and ask for reassurance, which must sound like the passenger being dumb. However, I bet there are other times where us regulars would have similar doubts about stuff that some people would assume to be obvious.

 

[the sniper]

GadgetMan has basically answered everything. Certainly where I am it's pretty rare now for Drivers or Platform Staff to open doors on a unit before the Guard arrives. As they (particularly the latter) aren't supposed to do it, and they only drop themselves in it when the Guard doesn't show up for whatever reason and the train gets cancelled. Getting people off cancelled trains isn't easy some times, most drivers I know have no interest in unnecessarily involving themselves in that situation, having to get the grief off the passengers or having to make a PA announcement, which is also outside of their grade's duties (at this TOC anyway).

Additionally, if I had two units in a platform that were already locked up, empty, but needed to be split or attached prior to departure, or the cab needed to be prepped, I wouldn't open the doors until it was done. Opening it would mean that you'd have to lock it up again, inevitably encountering trouble as people get wound up/panic about the doors not being open when they can see people inside. Having to tell people over and over again that the door will reopen in just a minute once the trains have attached/detached, only for them to hear you and go back to head butting the door open button and/or licking the windows. Then you get the one or two folks inside who haven't understood the announcement you made, they start pulling passcoms or egress' because they think they're on the wrong train or their mate has shown up and is now stuck outside on the platform... Basically it's just easier if everyone is in the same boat, waiting painlessly on the platform.

 

[edwin_m]

To address the coupling with/without passengers on board. I think the major differences are down to modern couplers. Older units have to be literally slammed together for a reliable couple, this could easily lead to passengers been thrown around and claiming for whiplash/injuries.

The more modern trains latch themselves together when you get them close enough, so absolutely no need for a jolt when they join.

EMT's coupling and uncoupling of 158s at Nottingham is carried out with passengers on board one of the units, and the BSI couplers on these units are probably about as primitive as any in use today. The only difference I can think of at Nottingham is that they make sure it is done on a straight section of platform.

 

[Taunton]

Oh dear me, several comments above that the thing that drives the procedures is : "What if the train becomes defective in the minutes before". "What if the guard is suddenly rushed off to hospital ...." etc. The whole everyday procedure shouldn't be done as if these oddball issues always happen. Did nobody in modern rail operations ever read their Thomas the Tank Engine, where passenger convenience was regularly pointed out to Naughty Thomas and the others by the Fat Controller as what comes first?

Anyone who read Gerry Fiennes book "I Tried to Run a Railway" will know that not only did he know a thing or two about rail operations, but he was pretty sensible as well. An issue on the ECML when he was in charge was that a major express was regularly delayed by a freight which was late. He was presented with a worked-through proposal to stretch out the timing of the express. "No", he said, "the answer is not to retime the express slower and later. The answer is to run the freight on time". And they were sent away to do it. And it was done. Maybe Fiennes had read the Rev. Awdry's books to his children (I'm sure he did, because he says his initial suggestion for the title to Ian Allan, his publishers, was indeed "The Fat Controller").