Waiting in the cold at Euston

[Llanigraham]

At a Terminus station such as Euston, it is blindingly obvious which way the train will depart since there is only one way it can go without ending up on the concourse

You would think so, but there are still people who ask the question!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Yep, they're the terminally stupid.

 

[bramling]

The train that form this service comes empty stock from Camden, therefore DOO. So will not have its doors released until the Guard gets there after their inward working or PNB.




Although us Drivers aren't strictly allowed to release doors, some of us still do.

With me it now depends on the time of day and location;

I recently bought a unit out the sidings early morning, released doors when on the platform. Signal clears, departure time comes and............ no Guard. Signalman calls me up saying he's been informed the Guard has failed to book on and there are no spares available so I'm to run empty stock in my booked path.

Hmm, "sorry signaller, I can't depart straight away as I've let the passengers board so will have to empty the train out again. Do you want the signal back for the train due through in a couple of minutes?"

Followed by me missing my booked path, waiting for 2 passenger trains and a freight to go through. Then crawling behind them to destination, getting there late for my return working which was also then delayed as a result.








The Controls to the right/left of Driver's desk have been disabled. The buttons on the back wall still work with the desk live as long as the Guard isn't keyed in elsewhere on the train.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another reason for trains being locked up is a UPC (Unit Previously Coupled) test. When the trains are prepped at the start of service, all cab controls etc are also tested. If units are coupled up then the intermediate cabs cannot be tested as the controls are dead.

For example an 8 car train may get prepped and goes North from Northampton to New Street. The units are then split into 2x4 car. The South unit (which now has a fully prepped South Cab and unprepped North Cab) gets driven from New Street to Euston using the South End Cab. On arrival into Euston the Guards diagram will say to lock the unit up for the North Cab to be UPC tested. So they lock the doors off and disappear for their next working/PNB. Driver then comes along to UPC the cab and we're back to waiting for the Guard to come release the doors prior to departure.

Some units sit at Euston for 1Hr+. Leaving the doors open isn't an option as the platform will have other services arriving/departing on top leading to confusion as mentioned by others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To address the coupling with/without passengers on board. I think the major differences are down to modern couplers. Older units have to be literally slammed together for a reliable couple, this could easily lead to passengers been thrown around and claiming for whiplash/injuries.

The more modern trains latch themselves together when you get them close enough, so absolutely no need for a jolt when they join.

Unfortunately much of the above reads like a good argument in favour of DOO where many of these issues do not arise.

I can't see any good reason why a driver shouldn't release doors, as long as the method used would be exactly the same as done by a guard - eg not from the driving position. One wonders if this is some kind of union agreement.

Regarding the UPC test, this sounds like appaling operational practice, as it sounds crazy to have units running about with one cab not fully prepped. What happens if the unit needs to carry out an unplanned wrong direction move, shunt move, reverse, or a defect in the other cab means the unit needsw to be driven from the other end? Also in the example given would prevent a quick turnround at Euston in the event of late running or if control wanted to do a set swap. Why can't the units be split and re-coupled before leaving the depot?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would think so, but there are still people who ask the question!

To be fair on Euston, there are ramps down to the train, and the platforms are at such a level where it is almost the case (may actually be the case) that the tracks could continue on back towards and under the concourse. We all know that isn't the case, but a first-time user might not.

That people don't consider what's behind them coming down the ramp is fairly obvious, as if you have a LM in one of the platforms that do extend back (e.g. 8 and 11) the quietest coach is always the rear one.

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

Yep, they're the terminally stupid.

Good one

However they are part of the paying public. Providing them with the clearest possible information not only helps them directly, but reduces the workload and stress levels of the staff who would otherwise have to deal with passengers after they have got on the wrong train, by which time they are probably quite angry about it. Remember also that the ramps descend to Euston beyond the buffer stops and someone who wasn't paying too much attention could quite easily end up thinking the line carried on into a tunnel under the concourse.

I'm reminded of the time I was asked if trains did three-point turns ... by an officer in a council transport department.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm reminded of the time I was asked if trains did three-point turns ... by an officer in a council transport department.

A reasonable question, as they have been known to. (what with triangular junctions etc).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But not the same company procedure.

If it's a safety issue, I see no justification for differing company policies.

 

[Busaholic]

Yep, they're the terminally stupid.

In time, they become the stupidly terminal.

To be fair, it's a question asked at every railway terminus. Here in Penzance on a train I was on, the guard did the usual spiel about the train terminating here then added 'for the benefit of the lady in the second carriage, if she cares to wait on the train for another hundred years we may well be able to get her to Land's End'.

 

[MichaelAMW]

EMT's coupling and uncoupling of 158s at Nottingham is carried out with passengers on board one of the units, and the BSI couplers on these units are probably about as primitive as any in use today. The only difference I can think of at Nottingham is that they make sure it is done on a straight section of platform.

It's also the case that, when coupling, it's the empty unit that is moved on to the stationary one with the passengers (and the empty one that is uncoupled, although that's less of an issue).

 

[Kite159]

EMT's coupling and uncoupling of 158s at Nottingham is carried out with passengers on board one of the units, and the BSI couplers on these units are probably about as primitive as any in use today. The only difference I can think of at Nottingham is that they make sure it is done on a straight section of platform.

Same at Salisbury where trains couple and uncouple with passengers on board, even more when a Exeter to Waterloo service is strengthened with another unit at Salisbury and the guard for the front portion allows passengers to board and "get comfortable" whilst waiting for the unit from Exeter to arrive.

 

[edwin_m]

Same at Salisbury where trains couple and uncouple with passengers on board, even more when a Exeter to Waterloo service is strengthened with another unit at Salisbury and the guard for the front portion allows passengers to board and "get comfortable" whilst waiting for the unit from Exeter to arrive.

Interesting - they never do that at Nottingham and platform 7 is pretty uncomfortable at this time of year...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You also have trains coupling and uncoupling at Bournemouth with passengers onboard (444s now, used to be 442s). Doors are closed whilst the coupling is taking place then released once coupling is complete

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You also have trains coupling and uncoupling at Bournemouth with passengers onboard (444s now, used to be 442s). Doors are closed whilst the coupling is taking place then released once coupling is complete

When that happens there's a pre-recorded announcement which warns passenger's that there will be a short delay in the doors opening as it will be attaching to another train.

Although I've found from experience that you can attach to another with the doors released without any problems, but that's only done when is very quiet and no one around.

 

[HowardGWR]

Coming from the west at Salisbury, the arriving pax have to wait in the train until coupling has been completed (usually only a minute or so).

What I get from this discussion is that Euston boarding pax should be only summoned when their train is ready to be boarded. I expect that numbers joining are the deciding factor, but a standard of 5 minutes to departure could be a good rule. It's a bit like joining an aircraft at the last minute to avoid the draughty 'trunk' or the wait at the foot of stairways. Bus stations are ghastly places as you get a mouthful of diesel to boot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I get from this discussion is that Euston boarding pax should be only summoned when their train is ready to be boarded.

Have you been at Euston when that happens? It's chaos, and I don't think any more of it is to be encouraged. I far prefer wandering down and queueing at the doors than that.

What they should probably do is put up a platform number on the displays once known, but only put the text Boarding (which appears on the line below the platform number) when it actually is, i.e. the doors are open.

Neil

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It's all very well saying wait until the last minute. But it has already been explained in some detail why you're not always allowed onto a train with no crew on it, well in advance of departure time.

Driver who brings the train in really late, may have had an incident on the way in, the train will need an inspection, a OTMR/CCTV/FFCCTV download by a driver manager, a thorough checking over by fitters or inspectors prior to it being brought/put back into service, last thing they want when doing their job is some wittering bunch of passengers complaining why aren't we going anywhere!

Train been delayed in bound, due to signalling difficulties or whatever, it needs to be cleaned & tanked, the last thing cleaners need is some wittering bunch of passengers complaining why aren't we going anywhere & making more mess!

Driver gets on, starts checks, fault found, fitter called, can't be fixed, so you have to go through the rigmarole of chucking everyone off.

Driver gets on, starts checks, all OK, does seemingly the right thing & releases doors, but no guard for train so you have to go through the rigmarole of chucking everyone off.

Crew brings train in leaves doors open & train unattended some nice incontinent pensioner or individual then has an "accident" train has to be removed from service, as it'll need a deep clean.

Crew brings train in leaves doors open & train unattended some nice piece of societies crud comes along etches windows galore, sprays seats with paint & scrawls obscenities on the walls & windows... Train out of service.

There are countless scenarios for this and you know the reasons why we won't allow it, so get over it.

 

[Taunton]

There are countless scenarios for this and you know the reasons why we won't allow it, so get over it.

Actually the passengers are fed up with this "stuff you lot" attitude, it's notably worse on the railway nowadays (see several posts above) than in the old BR days, where such approaches were supposedly one of the things that led politicians to privatisation in the first place.

 

[talltim]

diagrammed a PNB. Would passengers be happier paying higher fares so TOCs can take on more traincrew and have unproductive diagrams where every set is unlocked 20mins before departure?

This is always mentioned. No, I would not be happier paying higher fares so that TOCs could take on extra staff to do X. I would be happier with TOCs making less profit so that they could take on extra staff to to X.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Corrected that for you.
And this is the view of someone who isn't traincrew!

I think you have missed part of the conversation....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Have you been at Euston when that happens? It's chaos, and I don't think any more of it is to be encouraged. I far prefer wandering down and queueing at the doors than that.

What they should probably do is put up a platform number on the displays once known, but only put the text Boarding (which appears on the line below the platform number) when it actually is, i.e. the doors are open.

Neil

Probably better if the platform number isn't displayed until it's ready for boarding. Do both Virgin and LM have enough train crews so that when one train arrives at Euston, they go for a break and another crew take the train out then the original crew take a train out say an hour later?

That would allow plenty of time for the train crew to do their checks, so the driver and guard could be around once the checks have been done to allow the train to be opened up early to allow people to board (and avoid a mad rush which would risk the train being delayed)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably better if the platform number isn't displayed until it's ready for boarding.

I disagree. Have you seen the Euston scrum?

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

I disagree. Have you seen the Euston scrum?

You get the Euston scrum whenever the train is announced. Having two scrums- one on the concourse and another by the doors- is not an improvement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are countless scenarios for this and you know the reasons why we won't allow it, so get over it.

Won't or don't?

London Midland do allow it- sometimes. Great Northern do allow it- even allowing passengers to be on board when two trains couple- sometimes.

That said, I don't massively care if I can board the train 20 minutes in advance or not, just as long as they don't announce "boarding" 20 minutes in advance and then create a huge scrum around the door for the 18 minutes before the doors are released.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You get the Euston scrum whenever the train is announced.

The old operational system, when VT used to run the Euston PIS, was that platforms for local trains (i.e. SS/LM/LO) were shown on the PIS as booked platform as soon as the train appeared. VTs used the scrum.

Having two scrums- one on the concourse and another by the doors- is not an improvement.

I disagree strongly; you don't get a "scrum" at the doors, you tend to get a relatively orderly queue at each door, spread out well down the train. I prefer waiting in that than joining a scrum of runners down to the train, in which I'm amazed nobody has been injured in the past. Certainly anyone tripping over would be trampled.

For Euston operations, my preference would be for LM trains to be advertised as they used to be with an "open platform" system operating, and a completely different system for VT, in which the train would arrive, disgorge its passengers, then the crew would close the platform access doors. Once that was done (as layovers are quite long this would usually be something like an hour before departure) the platform would be advertised, but without "Boarding". Once ready to board, "Boarding" would be advertised, and the platform doors opened, with a ticket check if desired.

There would be much less of a dangerous scrum then, and as with airlines passengers could choose to queue to board whenever they wished. (Tensabarriers could be used to provide a proper queue on the ramps).

Neil

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Actually the passengers are fed up with this "stuff you lot" attitude, it's notably worse on the railway nowadays (see several posts above) than in the old BR days, where such approaches were supposedly one of the things that led politicians to privatisation in the first place.

And with the amount of wibbling & whinging that goes on, on here & 7w477€r and faecesbook, I just think that you lot who voted for privatisation have got exactly what you asked for and that's a fragmented, dysfunctional, over priced, railway.

And if you want respect, then try showing some to those of us who work all hours & times of day to keep you office [censored] in transportation & work.

If all the shift workers ganged up on all the overpaid penpushers, I can assure you now there'd be a lot less penpushers, because they'd be dead through stress caused by heart attacks + diabetes, strokes and cancer, all illnesses which affect the shift workers.

When you start showing some respect towards those who provide you with your transportation, you might get some back. Respect is a two way thing, show it to me & I'll show it to you. Don't like the service, well you know where the bus & coach stations and stops are, go & get on one of those.

 

[Taunton]

Clearly a London Midland employee.

 

[talltim]

And with the amount of wibbling & whinging that goes on, on here & 7w477€r and faecesbook, I just think that you lot who voted for privatisation have got exactly what you asked for and that's a fragmented, dysfunctional, over priced, railway.

You do realise that over half the current population was too young to vote in that particular election?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well perhaps it may serve as a lesson on not to sell the national assets then!

They say an Englishman's home is his castle, well as most of the banks are now owned by foreign companies (Spanish, French, German, Japanese & US), it's most certainly not yours it's a foreigners. And likewise when it comes to the railway, you don't own anything anymore!

 

[bramling]

And with the amount of wibbling & whinging that goes on, on here & 7w477€r and faecesbook, I just think that you lot who voted for privatisation have got exactly what you asked for and that's a fragmented, dysfunctional, over priced, railway.

And if you want respect, then try showing some to those of us who work all hours & times of day to keep you office [censored] in transportation & work.

If all the shift workers ganged up on all the overpaid penpushers, I can assure you now there'd be a lot less penpushers, because they'd be dead through stress caused by heart attacks + diabetes, strokes and cancer, all illnesses which affect the shift workers.

When you start showing some respect towards those who provide you with your transportation, you might get some back. Respect is a two way thing, show it to me & I'll show it to you. Don't like the service, well you know where the bus & coach stations and stops are, go & get on one of those.

Where all of the above falls down, is shiftworkers (including me) are also inconvenienced by the practice of being locked out of a train. Not fun being at King's Cross at 0500 on winter Monday morning, at the end of a 12-hour shift, and having to stand on the platform for 45 minutes, simply because the train has been brought in ECS and the driver hasn't chosen to open the doors.

In the same way that I wouldn't be impressed standing on a platform at 04:13 in the morning and find the train sails through ECS covered in graffiti, and I have to wait an hour for the next one -- along with plenty of other railway staff whose trains would likely then be delayed or cancelled too.

I sympathise with some of the sentiment about unrealistic expectations demanded of the railways by certain types of passenger, however little things like leaving trains open **where possible** (I am fully aware there are valid reasons why this isn't always possible) go a long way to gaining passenger support. If some locations can manage to leave trains open as far as possible (King's Cross is a good example) then others can too.

 

[Delta558]

Doesn't Kings Cross have a waiting room?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Where all of the above falls down, is shiftworkers (including me) are also inconvenienced by the practice of being locked out of a train. Not fun being at King's Cross at 0500 on winter Monday morning, at the end of a 12-hour shift, and having to stand on the platform for 45 minutes, simply because the train has been brought in ECS and the driver hasn't chosen to open the doors.

In the same way that I wouldn't be impressed standing on a platform at 04:13 in the morning and find the train sails through ECS covered in graffiti, and I have to wait an hour for the next one -- along with plenty of other railway staff whose trains would likely then be delayed or cancelled too.

I sympathise with some of the sentiment about unrealistic expectations demanded of the railways by certain types of passenger, however little things like leaving trains open **where possible** (I am fully aware there are valid reasons why this isn't always possible) go a long way to gaining passenger support. If some locations can manage to leave trains open as far as possible (King's Cross is a good example) then others can too.

Well, it ain't happening is it! And Taunton, you couldn't be more wrong!

 

[LeylandLen]

As an occasional user of Virgin on the WCML to/from Euston , and reading about what happens when doors cant be opened on LM trains whilst train is at platform ~(never happened to me using a Virgin Pendelino or Voyager ) and seeing the drivers/guard side of the problem, it seems to me it would be a good idea to produce a simple pamphlet explaining the reasons from LMs side/reasons as given in various posts here. I know the departure board displays 'Boarding' when a train is ready , but surely a better way would be to display platform number, BUT to say to passengers ' make your way to Platform xx and wait for train to be ready and until its OK to board.'

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an occasional user of Virgin on the WCML to/from Euston , and reading about what happens when doors cant be opened on LM trains whilst train is at platform ~(never happened to me using a Virgin Pendelino or Voyager ) and seeing the drivers/guard side of the problem, it seems to me it would be a good idea to produce a simple pamphlet explaining the reasons from LMs side/reasons as given in various posts here. I know the departure board displays 'Boarding' when a train is ready , but surely a better way would be to display platform number, BUT to say to passengers ' make your way to Platform xx and wait for train to be ready and until its OK to board.'

Indeed. Airlines seem to manage to have "go to gate" and "boarding", no reason I can see why Euston should not have the same.

Neil