Waiting in the cold at Euston

[ComUtoR]

Whatever the virtues or otherwise of the OP, approaches such as 'it left on time. What more do you want?' hardly represent a customer service-focussed approach. The starting point should always be 'what do our passengers want from our service?' There will be occeasions when there are genuine reasons why this cannot be delivered but meeting what customers want should always be the aim.

At what point does the company draw the line ? When is the service the passengers to decide what happens and what doesn't ? You are purchasing a product. If you do not like that product or how it is provided then use an alternative.

Passengers are selfish, ignorant, [swear words]. So much goes on behind the scenes that people just do not see.

The "starting point" is. What is required to happen. What standards must be met. How can that be delivered.

"customer service" in this incident would be to provide a reason why the boarding time was 2 minutes and for that to be provided in a polite and respectful manner. What passengers can do is contact passenger focus and ask them to push the TOC to provide shelters on the platform to alleviate weather conditions.

Sadly what passengers do is bitch and moan about entitlement and expectations that their needs were not met.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What passengers can do is contact passenger focus and ask them to push the TOC to provide shelters on the platform to alleviate weather conditions.

At Euston you can always stay on the concourse until a couple of minutes before departure, but if you do do that you won't get a seat in the peak.

Neil

 

[A-driver]

I can't see how this is bad customer service or much of a problem at all. In the morning peak stations like Watford junction must have a fair number of people on the platform waiting for their train to arrive heading into town. There could easily be a few hundred waiting and they won't have a chance of boarding anywhere near 2 mins before departure as they need to wait for the train to actually arrive.

Short of paying train crew for an extra 20mins on each train so that they can get doors open early I see no way around this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I caught the 1549 and the platform was announced and the doors unlocked at 1545. Luckily everyone already knew it would go off the same platform as the 1546 and many were waiting there already!

London Midland do it with these two trains for a very good reason. It's to stop people for the 1546 Crewe getting on the wrong train; they do it every time two trains go off the same platform in quick succession.

It is generally frustrating at Euston when they announce the train as "boarding" in plenty of time and then you just get to queue by the door in the freezing cold for 15 minutes. If you stay on the concourse you're taking a risk; if the train is actually unlocked then you probably won't get a seat when you get to it.

It's fairly common to see the guard amble down the platform 3 minutes before departure with his burger and chips. I can only assume the guard is rightfully taking his full break, so I blame London Midland for having such tight turnarounds.

 

[ComUtoR]

At Euston you can always stay on the concourse until a couple of minutes before departure, but if you do do that you won't get a seat in the peak.

Neil

Concourses are a quagmire of issues.

Consider that down the line there is a plethora of people standing on open platforms waiting patiently for their train. Getting a concourse where your able to wait may sound luxurious to some.

I remember when there were shutters...

 

[nuneatonmark]

I was waiting on the platform for the 1546 yesterday. Normally LM let you on well before departure time but it's not unusual for the train to be announced and then everyone queues by each door until the guard comes along, especially for the 1646. The problem yesterday was that a number of LM services were held up around Wembley by a broken down freight train, hence the train crew being late for their next service. The 1546 only left 2 mins late but most frustratingly we got bumped down the priority order along the way, arriving at MK on platform 3, not platform 6 and being delayed for 20 minutes in total!

 

[Antman]

I was waiting on the platform for the 1546 yesterday. Normally LM let you on well before departure time but it's not unusual for the train to be announced and then everyone queues by each door until the guard comes along, especially for the 1646. The problem yesterday was that a number of LM services were held up around Wembley by a broken down freight train, hence the train crew being late for their next service. The 1546 only left 2 mins late but most frustratingly we got bumped down the priority order along the way, arriving at MK on platform 3, not platform 6 and being delayed for 20 minutes in total!

You never had this problem with slammers

If there is a good reason for leaving passengers stood in the cold then lets hear it but I suspect it's just another example of a TOC treating its customers with contempt, after all they've got a captive market!

 

[A-driver]

You never had this problem with slammers



If there is a good reason for leaving passengers stood in the cold then lets hear it but I suspect it's just another example of a TOC treating its customers with contempt, after all they've got a captive market!

Read the thread. The reasons have been given.

Not treating them with contempt-it's no different from waiting at a through station in the cold for the train to turn up.

If an 8 car comes in and splits and the crew take out the front unit then they can't open the rear unit meaning that the rear train has to await arrival of its crew before the doors can be opened. If they are on another train coming in with a tight turnaround or don't book on till just before departure/are rostered their break then what other option is there?

They have tried at some stations like Euston where trains share platforms to have all doors open and clearly state on the screen that the train is the front 4 coaches only but unfortunately most passengers don't read that so they end up missing their train because they are sitting in the 7th coach back-which isn't one of the front 4! Therefore they can't leave the doors open on the rear unit anymore.

So there are your reasons.

 

[Antman]

Read the thread. The reasons have been given.

Not treating them with contempt-it's no different from waiting at a through station in the cold for the train to turn up.

If an 8 car comes in and splits and the crew take out the front unit then they can't open the rear unit meaning that the rear train has to await arrival of its crew before the doors can be opened. If they are on another train coming in with a tight turnaround or don't book on till just before departure/are rostered their break then what other option is there?

They have tried at some stations like Euston where trains share platforms to have all doors open and clearly state on the screen that the train is the front 4 coaches only but unfortunately most passengers don't read that so they end up missing their train because they are sitting in the 7th coach back-which isn't one of the front 4! Therefore they can't leave the doors open on the rear unit anymore.

So there are your reasons.

I can appreciate that when a train splits it is a good idea to keep the rear portion locked until the front portion has left but once it has can't the platform staff unlock the doors?

The opening post from Peter made no mention of trains splitting.

In fairness I must add that I've never had this problem with LM at Euston but clearly many people have.

 

[A-driver]

I can appreciate that when a train splits it is a good idea to keep the rear portion locked until the front portion has left but once it has can't the platform staff unlock the doors?

Depends on the unit. Platform staff don't have master keys and shouldn't have them considering they would need a lot of training (obviously a master key opens up the entire desk so knocking something with the master key in could cause problems). Some units can have doors released with a guards key or 21key alone but not all.

Plus some companies won't allow platform staff to release doors at all as it would require training and then monitoring/assessing which would be very expensive for no real gain-the train still leave on time and as I have already said, it's no different to passengers waiting to board a through train further down the line.

Also, platform staff are often tightly rostered so they may not be able to get to the train much before the guard if they are dispatching other trains on other platforms or on their rostered breaks etc.

 

[DeeGee]

clearly state on the screen that the train is the front 4 coaches only but unfortunately most passengers don't read that so they end up missing their train because they are sitting in the 7th coach back-which isn't one of the front 4!

Which is fine if you know which end of the train is the "front".

"The four coaches furthest from the ticket barrier" would be less confusing and might mean fewer people miss their train. Or didn't they used to have boards, at least at either Charing Cross or Victoria, which said "This is the front of the train"?

 

[A-driver]

The opening post from Peter made no mention of trains splitting.



In fairness I must add that I've never had this problem with LM at Euston but clearly many people have.

It's not just if its split but any time trains share a platform-at Euston I believe that this is quite common? So one train is already on the stops, another comes in and turns straight around.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is fine if you know which end of the train is the "front".

"The four coaches furthest from the ticket barrier" would be less confusing and might mean fewer people miss their train. Or didn't they used to have boards, at least at either Charing Cross or Victoria, which said "This is the front of the train"?

Um-seriously?! How many people are confused on where the front of the train is at a terminal station? Is the front the end facing the open air and railway line or the end facing the buffer stops and brick wall?!

 

[DeeGee]

Seriously. Yes. When you park your car forwards into a parking bay, which is the front?

The public may not regularly travel by train and may not be aware that the driver does not reverse it out of a bay like a coach or a car.

It's a simple little change that addresses the issue that some members of the public are hard of thinking

 

[ComUtoR]

... can't the platform staff unlock the doors?

Not that I am aware of. The opening of doors is restricted. You could get platform staff to open the doors but then they would need the relevant training and safety critical briefings. Better trained staff means an increase in wages. Ergo; increasing ticket costs.

The opening post from Peter made no mention of trains splitting.

The opening post made no mention of anything other than doors closed, passenger suffering standing on the platform. No other variables. Potential reasons were then supplied by other posters.

 

[A-driver]

Seriously. Yes. When you park your car forwards into a parking bay, which is the front?

The public may not regularly travel by train and may not be aware that the driver does not reverse it out of a bay like a coach or a car.

It's a simple little change that addresses the issue that some members of the public are hard of thinking

Well even so, the wording is irrelevant as the point is that leaving the doors open leads to too many people getting on the wrong train.

Kings x tried it for a while at plats 9-11 and it was chaos with people wanting Stevenage-Royston ending up on the first stop biggleswade peterbourgh train etc.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not treating them with contempt-it's no different from waiting at a through station in the cold for the train to turn up.

If you're waiting at a "through station" the departure board doesn't say "boarding" when the train is sat in the station with the doors firmly locked. That's what the real issue is here.

The Euston departure boards will announce the train as "boarding" 20 minutes before it is due to depart, everyone will leave the warm concourse and march down to the train, and then everyone will stand next to a locked door for 17 minutes. The guard will then turn up with his Burger King and everyone will complain about him leaving them waiting in the cold.

It makes the customer feel like the guard and the TOC are taking the mickey out of them, and it makes it more likely that the guard will get abuse because of it. It's not fair on the guard- he's getting shouted at just for taking his break- and it's not really what you'd call good customer service either. It boils down to the TOCs trying to scrimp on turnaround times in order to cut the wage bill, if the guard's PNB means he only gets to the train 3 minutes before departure then the turnaround time is too tight.

Um-seriously?! How many people are confused on where the front of the train is at a terminal station? Is the front the end facing the open air and railway line or the end facing the buffer stops and brick wall?!

The train comes into the station and parks up. Which end is the front?

I understand the terminology but I don't think that people assuming the first carriage they come to is "the front" is particularly idiotic. Other terms- near/far/furthest from the ticket barrier- are more useful.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you're waiting at a "through station" the departure board doesn't say "boarding" when the train is sat in the station with the doors firmly locked. That's what the real issue is here.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

This can actually be addressed. I'm pretty sure that the recent upgrade to CIS screens were designed for this kind of situation. Again, speak with passenger focus and whatever local groups there are and push for better use of the CIS.

The train comes into the station and parks up. Which end is the front?

Er... from who's perspective ? Almost all of ours will say furthest from the barriers. From a passenger perspective it should always be from the direction of travel. At a terminal that should be obvious. From a staff perspective... *deep breath* It's complicated

 

[A-driver]

If you're waiting at a "through station" the departure board doesn't say "boarding" when the train is sat in the station with the doors firmly locked. That's what the real issue is here.

The Euston departure boards will announce the train as "boarding" 20 minutes before it is due to depart, everyone will leave the warm concourse and march down to the train, and then everyone will stand next to a locked door for 17 minutes. The guard will then turn up with his Burger King and everyone will complain about him leaving them waiting in the cold.

If the issue is just that the boards say 'boarding' when it isn't then I think you just need to get over it as its a pretty minor issue! It gives a platform number so you know where to go and wait for the train but it's hardly a major problem if it says boarding but the doors are locked. Trains are not running late or leaving people unable to board because they don't open the doors in time!

As for the guard and his Burger King...please get over it. That is twice so far you have mentioned the fact that the guard may approach their train carrying food. I can't see what your issue with it is but the fact that you have seen fit to mention it twice in a thread suggests that it is something of a big deal to you or else you wouldn't bother taking the time to type such irrelevant information which has nothing to do with the topic being discussed...

 

[hounddog]

Passengers are selfish, ignorant, [swear words]. .

If I replaced 'passengers' with 'train crew' I'd be kicked off the forum.

 

[trainophile]

I've been known to check with the compass on my iPhone to work out in which direction we will be leaving the station, and hence which is the "front". If the train is just stood there, parked up on a through platform, it isn't obvious to a passenger who may not have used that route before, and/or has no sense of direction!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been known to check with the compass on my iPhone to work out in which direction we will be leaving the station, and hence which is the "front". If the train is just stood there, parked up on a through platform, it isn't obvious to a passenger who may not have used that route before, and/or has no sense of direction!

New St is terrible for this, even though they have A and B ends they could use for that purpose instead.

(Though it might have sufficed just to say "New St is terrible" )

Neil

 

[wensley]

New St is terrible for this, even though they have A and B ends they could use for that purpose instead.

(Though it might have sufficed just to say "New St is terrible" )

Neil

But A and B platforms are seperated by mid-platform signals are they not. If a unit arrives on to a B platform and splits then a Driver would be required to shunt the set onto the A platform which causes more issues and could potentially worsen congestion at that location. Furthermore, this isn't possible in a terminus station.

Top train working at termini isn't ideal but it's they only way to manage the service, especially around the peaks. It works Ok if the customer information is good.

Passengers have their moments but are generally Ok if they have a reasonable understanding of what's going on around them. You can stand by a single set at Kings X and still be asked which end's the front (to which my response is normally "I wouldn't fancy going too far that way" whilst pointing at the buffers ).

Refering to the OP's comments, in cases of disruption late inward crew can lead to late unlocking of outbound sets - especailly if the crew are diagrammed a PNB. Would passengers be happier paying higher fares so TOCs can take on more traincrew and have unproductive diagrams where every set is unlocked 20mins before departure?

Regarding DDA compliance, at Kings X we will have passengers on the platform nice and early, even if the train isn't unlocked - so they can get boarded easily when the train is prepared.

It's a bit of a minefield, and there are two sides to every argument, but if a train is left locked it's for a good reason.

 

[TUC]

You are purchasing a product.

What other business would say 'If you do not like it then use an alternative'? A core aim of any business is stop customers going elsewhere.

 

[ComUtoR]

What other business would say 'If you do not like it then use an alternative'? A core aim of any business is stop customers going elsewhere.

The core aim of a business is to milk the customer of every penny it can and to drive as high a profit as it can. No company will say use someone else but they will absolutely provide a product/service and let the consumer decide its value/worth

When you go purchase something it is YOU that has the choice. If you wish to use the train to go from point A to point B then you have a choice.

If you do not like the way in which a Train company runs its service you can freely choose to take the bus or go by car. Each method comes with its own caveats and problems.

When more people decide to use alternative methods then the power of supply and demand will kick in and the TOC will need to improve or drop prices. A friend of mine will now choose Virgin (and go first class) than take the cheaper option of London Midland.

Personally I prefer Galaxy to Cadbury but I don't phone up Cadbury and say your chocolate is awful and sugary you have to make it smoother and creamier because I'm the customer and I want it.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You'll find with us that if there's an attachment to be made (455) in a platform, we will detrain any passengers because of the risk that when the other unit attaches it may cause a jolt and they fall over & sue us.

That was brought in after an incident some years ago where a unit slid into another at Waterloo, something that I warned them about, but some dippy woman SM said it's safe to do it... The rest is history as they say.

But rather unfortunately due to the type of clientele we seem to have down here, we leave the trains locked, because we've done it before (left them open) only to find that the local scumbags have been on, used the train as a toilet, sickbag or vandalised it, so it gets cancelled. So now, sorry due to the actions of the minority, the well behaved passengers get treated as untrustworthy and will wait until, we are ready to load them on board, so it mitigates against the scumbags who can't behave.

 

[ComUtoR]

If I replaced 'passengers' with 'train crew' I'd be kicked off the forum.

Train crew are arrogant and self-righteous [swear words].

 

[Llanigraham]

PASSENGERS are arrogant and self-righteous [swear words].

Corrected that for you.
And this is the view of someone who isn't traincrew!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You ought to have been at Guildford the other day and seen the appalling attitudes towards a significant number of staff due the loss of signalling.

Of course that's the station staffs fault! :roll:

 

[Kite159]

You'll find with us that if there's an attachment to be made (455) in a platform, we will detrain any passengers because of the risk that when the other unit attaches it may cause a jolt and they fall over & sue us.

That was brought in after an incident some years ago where a unit slid into another at Waterloo, something that I warned them about, but some dippy woman SM said it's safe to do it... The rest is history as they say.

But rather unfortunately due to the type of clientele we seem to have down here, we leave the trains locked, because we've done it before (left them open) only to find that the local scumbags have been on, used the train as a toilet, sickbag or vandalised it, so it gets cancelled. So now, sorry due to the actions of the minority, the well behaved passengers get treated as untrustworthy and will wait until, we are ready to load them on board, so it mitigates against the scumbags who can't behave.

Reminds me a few weeks ago when at Waterloo when a 6 car 159 pulled in with a 10 minute turnaround and was due to spilt, the platform was announced before the service even arrived so passengers were boarding before they could close the doors to spilt the service, causing some "please get off the train" announcements so they could spilt it to then release the doors.

 

[A-driver]

What other business would say 'If you do not like it then use an alternative'? A core aim of any business is stop customers going elsewhere.

What other business is so oversubscribed with customers that it would almost improve most peoples view of it if it did put a few off?!

Not saying I think it's acceptable but when it comes to commuter railways there really is no competition and if a few people start refusing to use the service the company won't miss them.

The fact that numerous 12 car trains arrive into central London stations every morning full and standing with off peak flows also incredibly busy I think it fair to say that the commuter TOCs don't really need to do much to entice or retain customers. What other realistic alternative is there that all the commuters working in London and living in Herts, beds, bucks, cambs, Essex, Surrey, Sussex, Kent etc can use every day?

As I say-I'm not saying it's right but I doubt LM will give a second thought to not opening train doors until 2 mins before departure considering the alternatives are very expensive. I'm fairly confident it won't be enough to make a noticeable dent in their customer numbers!