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Virgin has franchise extension request rejected

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asylumxl

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I believe the Virgin livery is actually copyrighted? Or I was under that impression because permission needs to be granted by Virgin for the release of simulator content.

So unlike TOCs such as FCC, EMT, whom just slap their logo on, won't the new operator be required to reliver them properly?
 
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rail-britain

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I believe the Virgin livery is actually copyrighted
The logo and name are covered by TradeMark, the livery is covered by copyright

However on termination of the franchise, the incoming rail franchise is allowed (typically) 6 months to remove the previous livery

Virgin Rail Group go one stage further and remove their logos from the rolling stock prior to handover
Most other franchise holders allow up to 14 days for the incoming franchise holder to apply vinyls to cover previous logos

Equally, some franchise names, logos, and/or artwork are still owned by the DfT, although many of these have now expired and no longer used
An example of this was the ScotRail swoosh, owned by DfT and operated under licence by National Express
 

tbtc

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I believe the Virgin livery is actually copyrighted? Or I was under that impression because permission needs to be granted by Virgin for the release of simulator content.

So unlike TOCs such as FCC, EMT, whom just slap their logo on, won't the new operator be required to reliver them properly?

Arriva didn't change the livery much when they took over XC
 

swt_passenger

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Don't the Pendolinos belong to Angel Trains (ROSCO) rather than Virgin and Virgin lease them back? It gets complicated though as I understand Virgin are responsible for the maintenance of them and have the contract to extend the 31 sets to 11 cars when the new 62 coaches come. Happy to be corrected here though...

Virgin lease the Pendolinos in exactly the same way every other TOC leases their stock, (ignoring First Group's few HSTs). Also, the Rosco will have been given a DfT guarantee that in the event of a franchise change they will remain on the route, as they are specifically tilting trains for the WCML, the only route that needs tilting trains.

'Virgin Rail Projects' is a separate legal entity contracted to bring in the first few new Pendolinos by DfT. In principle, VRP is a stand alone organisation and if there were delays ought to be able to carry on without Virgin West Coast...
 

TheWalrus

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I vote for Virgin!!!! Who else is going other than First?
 

rail-britain

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I can see FirstGroup getting the ECML next year
cough, with the East Coast franchise removing Glasgow from next year it is possible for this franchise to also be awarded to Virgin Rail Group, thus removing any need for an investigation by the Competition Commission
However, Virgin Rail Group had previously advised it was not interested in the portions of the East Coast franchise north of Edinburgh (ie Inverness and Aberdeen), and this makes sense when read with the recent rolling stock review, also hinting the offer may go this way

This would then free up First Group to continue with its interurban rail network
cough, Northern, TransPennine, and CrossCountry all merged into one single franchise...

There is saying you are "interested" in a franchise, and putting in a "serious" bid
It has already been exposed that some rail companies have put in bids in the past that they knew would not be accepted, thus making the competition look fair
 

Solent&Wessex

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Cant imagine there will be much difference to the Punters though. They will still be travelling on Pendolino's and the time table will not change dramatically. The Uniform will change as will the colour of the station signs. Oh Joy!
If the station signs change it will be the first time since BR days at many Virgin stations. The likes of Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle still have ex BR Intercity station signs with the maroon stripe top and bottom.


 

Failed Unit

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I see that myth has reappeared that the same operator can't have both the east and west coast mainline on competition grounds. This is total nonsense. London to Swindon has more passengers making that journey and it is OK for it to have a monopoly operator. Remember that Virgin have already bid twice a considerable cost for the ECML which proves that it is a myth.

Don't rule out Aberdeen and Inverness staying on east coast. Holyhead is still on West Coast and is just as operationally difficult. The Scottish government won't let the routes get split easily just like the Welsh have kept Holyhead. Remember demand is large maybe not to London but certainly North of Edinburgh to Newcastle and York. Likewise if you live in Perth it is a long drive to Edinburgh airport. Splitting routes does not work I know Lincoln - Birmingham split just sent people into cars.

I don't think first operated great western any worse than Virgin operate west coast. It will be good to see the route retendered. Maybe virgin will get it again maybe not but virgin should have not behaved well during thier 15 years running it.
 

Fincra5

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I feel that Virgin have been very successful with their franchise, and that they should retain it. First Group would ruin it, National Express surely wouldn't be allowed to bid.
 

Ivo

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I really can't see anyone besides Virgin or First winning the franchise, but then in all honesty I would say the same for the East Coast franchise. If First were to win both, we may as well start rebranding all major InterCity routes as First Group InterCity, with the Midland MainLine being the sole out-of-London survivor (not counting Norwich here). I just can't see how them having all three of the "PowerHouse" franchises would be permitted.
 

Zoe

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Neither East Coast or West Coast compete with Great Western.
 

Failed Unit

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I feel that Virgin have been very successful with their franchise, and that they should retain it. First Group would ruin it, National Express surely wouldn't be allowed to bid.

Virgins biggest weakness to me is lack of investment in stations. Which reflects the high number of thier stations in the worse 10 list. Yes they don't own the stations but the can still invest to improve the facalities like GNER did.

I am sure First and GoVia would not be allowed to bid. Limits exist on the % of the network they can run irrespective of where the are geographically. I am sure they are both getting close to this.
 

Zoe

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I am sure First and GoVia would not be allowed to bid. Limits exist on the % of the network they can run irrespective of where the are geographically. I am sure they are both getting close to this.
First bid for East Coast and Cross Country last time. They haven't won any other franchises since then so I would expect them to bid.
 

Failed Unit

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First bid for East Coast and Cross Country last time. They haven't won any other franchises since then so I would expect them to bid.

I am not saying I don't expect them to bid. If they win and they go over the limits they would just divest of other Franchises.
 

Invincibles

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I am still a little unsure what it is people want Virgin to do with their stations.

East Midlands Trains have replaced the platform surfaces at Leicester and Derby and also the canopies at Derby. Loughborough and Nottingham are up for renewal shortly. However, is this statement correct? Is it EMT that decided the work needed to be done and so did it or was it some intiative from Network Rail or some other national body?

Anyone who travels through Preston can see its potential to be a really attractive station, but it is actually not that long since they had the scaffolding up working on the roof.

Wigan North Western, Warrington, Stafford, Coventry etc are always singled out for criticism for being 60s rationalisations rather than grand victorian efforts or clean modern affairs. However, they do exactly what they are supposed to in terms of permitting local connections and providing somewhere dry to wait until the train arrives.

Maybe it would be worth specifying station upgrades as part of the franchise bid, but surely all that then happens is the subsidy gets recalculated to cover the cost of the upgrades (not directly, but this is what the accountants on the bid team will aim to achieve).

My personal opinion is that if the franchises need incentivising to take interest in all aspects of the railway, just as they had under the big 4 (or the smaller franchises before that) so that they have real power to brand things, to design and to integrate services. The problem with the short term franchise is that why would, or indeed should, Virgin create a stunning new design that really heralds their role in the town? (Note here that when the first stations were built they were major new technological advances, something really special. Now travelling between cities is second nature)
 

Failed Unit

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Virgin had a 15 year franchise and refused to invest in stations. Compare that with say Newark NorthGate not a meca but a massive improvement than under BR!
 

Invincibles

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If they had been thinking about google maps maybe Wigan could have got a giant V shaped roof supported by appropriate platform buildings, with the styling exactly the same as the virgin font. In fact the whole ticket office area could look quite good under a mettalic V with glass walls (a bit like Stockport platform 0 I imagine)

Stagecoach lends itself pretty well to flowing lines design, but First on a local lines might be a challenge to the architect.

Personally I would be very happy for Virgin to get the WCML again and hope it is for a long enough time to allow them to get on with sorting out Birmingham to Scotland and maybe even one or two of the other interesting routes they talk about in their current potentially false promises.
 

Failed Unit

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If they had been thinking about google maps maybe Wigan could have got a giant V shaped roof supported by appropriate platform buildings, with the styling exactly the same as the virgin font. In fact the whole ticket office area could look quite good under a mettalic V with glass walls (a bit like Stockport platform 0 I imagine)

Stagecoach lends itself pretty well to flowing lines design, but First on a local lines might be a challenge to the architect.

Personally I would be very happy for Virgin to get the WCML again and hope it is for a long enough time to allow them to get on with sorting out Birmingham to Scotland and maybe even one or two of the other interesting routes they talk about in their current potentially false promises.

Considering they didn't manage in 15 years how long would you give them 50? Perhaps they may get on train catering sorted out so passengers can buy stuff rather than the current - we don't take cards and we have no change so tough you can buy anything attitude. Perhaps they make get rid of the gulf in quality of service between pendos and voyagers. When you pay the same price for a ticket what you get on a voyager takes the p@&£. For me Virgin would need to do a lot better. Yes we have the pendos. But we should really thank angel trains for them. GNER did much more on the east coast in a much shorter time
 

WatcherZero

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Virgin did want to do up Wigan Northwestern early in the franchise (around 2002 ish) drawing up some plans for a major renovation of the station, they were refused permission by the Dft however which didnt like operators making significant investments in stations beyond general upkeep.
 

swt_passenger

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I am still a little unsure what it is people want Virgin to do with their stations.

East Midlands Trains have replaced the platform surfaces at Leicester and Derby and also the canopies at Derby. Loughborough and Nottingham are up for renewal shortly. However, is this statement correct? Is it EMT that decided the work needed to be done and so did it or was it some intiative from Network Rail or some other national body?

None of the structural work you quote was the responsibility of EMT, and as you surmise, most of the issues about Virgin's poorer WCML stations are not the responsibility of Virgin.

In principle, TOCs are only responsible for cleanliness of what is already there, in areas that can be reached from standing - everything else is NR's. The major complaint seems to be that where TOCs do want to do stuff like additional waiting areas, ticket offices, catering, toilets etc, NR charge far too much for their approvals process.
NR managed projects include those 'ring fenced' by DfT such as the 'Access for All' funds.
 

Geezertronic

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Virgin Trains might not have done much with the stations but the WCML services have been transformed thanks to the WCML upgrades and the VHF services. I am quite happy as a Virgin Trains customer and had a happy and quick response from Custoner Services last time I had cause to contact them(who I usually complain about being too slow).
 

Aictos

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The sadness about the stations needing TLC is NWR is usually the responsible party but the TLC coud easily be delivered by the TOC managing the station.

Still Virgin had 15 years to carry out improvements to remove their stations from the Worse Stations list!
 

tbtc

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GNER did much more on the east coast in a much shorter time

They didn't get any *new* trains (beyond temporarily borrowing an old class 89 and a couple of unused 373s).

GNER were good at "on train" stuff, but Virgin have made much more significant investment.

As a side note here, if Virgin don't win the West Coast franchise then presumably that'll be the end of Virgin as a player in the rail market. To maintain a competitive market the Government need a lot of bidders, but we're seeing fewer and fewer companies involved (no more Connex, MTL taken over by Arriva, Arriva taken over by DB, Prism taken over by National Express, no more Anglia, no more Great Western Holdings...).

We need more than just four big companies to maintain innovation.
 
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