Virgin has franchise extension request rejected

[Railway]

http://rail-news.com/2010/10/08/virgin-has-franchise-extension-request-rejected/

 

[185]

Oh crumbs. As much as they aren't in my good books of late, I'd rather leave them running the WCML than any of the other vultures. Especially FirstGroup who have a habit of "Transforming" travel.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Oh crumbs. As much as they aren't in my good books of late, I'd rather leave them running the WCML than any of the other vultures. Especially FirstGroup who have a habit of "Transforming" travel.

I don't think anyone can say that one firm is better than another to be honest. From a passengers point of view all the big transport groups have had the highs and lows. National Express had highs - Wessex Trains and c2c, and lows - Central Trains and East Coast. First Group have highs - TPE and First Great Eastern and lows FCC and some aspects of Great Western, although lots of this was the DfT's doing. Virgin blessed us with Voyagers and chronic overcrowding on Cross Country. Arriva gave us one of the longest running bouts of industrial action since privatisation when it had Arriva Trains Northern and Stagecoach and GoVia have both had the off hiccup with their franchises.

There is no good or bad owning group, as they all seem to go through phases and there are many factors to take into account. Personally I think it would be good to let someone else have a stab at the West Coast.

 

[merlodlliw]

another interesting point, Virgins protected status, non compi ends in 2012,good job the extra two years was rejected on this point alone.



Also the word shark is more in keeping than vultures in my opinion,having seen how some of the bus companies have operated.Plus the cosy deals of the past
where faceless members of the DFT granted franchises without consultation or reference to anyone,except themselves.

welcome the new kid on the block, DB

my opinion for what its worth

 

[Aictos]

IF DB was successful, would they do a similar order to Virgin to extend all 390s to 11 cars thus having a standard sized fleet rather then a mix fleet of 9 and 11 car 390s?

I know who I would like to have either the East or West coast and can only hope they are successful but it's obvious who I'm backing,

 

[The Planner]

Is anyone really suprised ?? it has been predicted on here by several for months. Don't think DB will be the knight in shining armour either, from what Ive picked up Arriva have a fair bit of clout within their operations.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was thinking about open access on this route. Will they ever happen?

Do we have spare paths after the 2nd London to Liverpool is introduced.
It will need to be a tilting train but no Rosco will just build more pendos or voyagers just in case. Remember hull trains were established before the 222s came along. Gc have stuck with existing trains.

One route I could see with potential Market is London to Edinburgh. But that would be head to head against east coast which should in theory at least be able to equal quality and speed.

 

[rail-britain]

Is anyone really suprised??

Not at all, as the current operation is an extension
Terms couldn't be agreed over the new rolling stock, which is intended for the next term

I can understand Virgin Rail Groups interest in extending this franchise, as they are not interested in any many other franchises
Hopefully the new franchise will be for a longer term, plus further new rolling stock to be determined near the end
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was thinking about open access on this route. Will they ever happen?

Yes, there are currently legal and contractual restrictions
They are queuing up and waiting to get on the West Coast route

It is almost certain that WSR will switch / add a new route from London Marylebone to Euston, plus adding new destinations along the West Coast (where they are not currently permitted to stop)

The recent application to operate a service between Glasgow and Nottingham (via Carlisle) was declined due to this restriction
Again, this is likely to progressed once the restriction is lifted

Personally, current operators should take the plunge and take a small amount of risk and expand on existing routes
Should they lose the franchise then they can either sell on these new routes or retain them themselves
For example :
First ScotRail operating an Aberdeen - Carlisle service (allowing connections with their FTPE services)

 

[shinkansen1966]

There is no good or bad owning group, as they all seem to go through phases and there are many factors to take into account. Personally I think it would be good to let someone else have a stab at the West Coast.

Agreed ! When the railways were privatised, there was some interesting newcomers including GB railways in Anglia and GNER. But their efforts to stand out through customer services or additional facilities failed to impress the government or cost them financially.

Now, we are left with a half dozen identikit operators who are all under the same financial squeeze.

So expect to see

• more trolleys, less buffets
• more convoluted revenue raising ticket restrictions
• a possible reduction in costly marginal services in the evenings and Sunday mornings
• current rolling stock required to perform ever more punishing rosters

 

[rail-britain]

There are sadly great parallels with other transport sell-offs; starting off as lots of idependent identities, but eventually merge into far fewer, typically half of the original amount
As is typical, customer service accounts for nothing
The company have the best customer service, but if the revenue isn't there then it's days are numbered...

However, the franchise modelling is wrong
A franchise is profitable and so the government want their cut
A franchise is loss making and the government want to cut the subsidy over the term
Sadly something has to give, and ironically it has been the profitable ones rather than the loss making ones
All due to too many fingers in the pie

 

[YorkshireBear]

They might just win it again you never know.

If WC is lost by virgin, would they be interested in anything else? or will that be it for them and rail?

 

[Failed Unit]

They might just win it again you never know.

If WC is lost by virgin, would they be interested in anything else? or will that be it for them and rail?

East coast and Great Western.

 

[YorkshireBear]

East coast and Great Western.

When are they up for again?

 

[imagination]

I can't even imagine a Virgin Great Western...

 

[Failed Unit]

When are they up for again?

East coast soon as the government will want rid. 2014? I am not sure about Great Western but 2015 rings a bell.

Will hit google.

 

[The Planner]

You can bet your house on Virgin taking a punt at East Coast. Great Western is pretty unlikely though.

 

[tbtc]

You can bet your house on Virgin taking a punt at East Coast. Great Western is pretty unlikely though.

The Virgin brand is about providing a "premier" service. They aren't going to want to get their hands mucky running Pacers on branch lines. Stagecoach may bid alone for these, but I can't imagine Virgin doing it.

 

[Failed Unit]

The Virgin brand is about providing a "premier" service. They aren't going to want to get their hands mucky running Pacers on branch lines. Stagecoach may bid alone for these, but I can't imagine Virgin doing it.

I see you point unless they use Virgin only on the IC routes and stagecoach on the NSE and RR routes. However I am sure stagecoach would rather go it alone.

Virgin had plans of reforming inter-city. But with Anglia and Great Western now part of franchises that do local as well and XC probably beyond ever becoming IC standard again i can only really see them wanting east and west coast thinking about it. I don't consider TPE IC others do but still not what virgin would consider suitable for their brand.

 

[ivanhoe]

Cant imagine there will be much difference to the Punters though. They will still be travelling on Pendolino's and the time table will not change dramatically. The Uniform will change as will the colour of the station signs. Oh Joy!

 

[tbtc]

I see you point unless they use Virgin only on the IC routes and stagecoach on the NSE and RR routes. However I am sure stagecoach would rather go it alone.

Virgin had plans of reforming inter-city. But with Anglia and Great Western now part of franchises that do local as well and XC probably beyond ever becoming IC standard again i can only really see them wanting east and west coast thinking about it. I don't consider TPE IC others do but still not what virgin would consider suitable for their brand.

Yeah, I think Virgin had one idea for Intercity services (premium express services with bells and whistles) and the Government had another (running them as part of integrated franchises)

In the 1990s the Virgin "brand" was quite a draw (record shops etc). Now, there's a lot less prestige to it, and it's not like Stagecoach need Virgin, so I'm not sure they'd do another joint bid

 

[Zoe]

When are they up for again?

Assuming First get the extension then 2016. Remember though First own HST power cars so it's diffiuclt to see anyone else ever winning the GW franchise.

 

[Failed Unit]

Assuming First get the extension then 2016. Remember though First own HST power cars so it's diffiuclt to see anyone else ever winning the GW franchise.

I doubt that will stop others from getting the franchise, you would hope by 2016 some IEP's may have got some HST's off the East Coast, maybe even electrification. DfT don't like blackmail, as Virgin have found out over the recent years.

 

[YorkshireBear]

yeah if they try using blackmail to there advantgae i cant see it helping more just backfiring. But then again do the DFT have a choice? first could elase them out and make cash?

about virgin and there premier service, that's what i was thinking about local ones and they dont wanna split so... virgin east coast, that's all i can really imagine :/

 

[Bittern]

Quick question. If Virgin don't win the bid, do the Pendolinos stay on the WCML or does Virgin take them with them?

 

[xtradj]

did i read here Liverpool to Euston will be twice hourly?

If so from when?

Also will there be a later service to Euston as from December 2010?. 20.48 is quite early, as is the 21.07 return from Euston

 

[Geezertronic]

Quick question. If Virgin don't win the bid, do the Pendolinos stay on the WCML or does Virgin take them with them?

Don't the Pendolinos belong to Angel Trains (ROSCO) rather than Virgin and Virgin lease them back? It gets complicated though as I understand Virgin are responsible for the maintenance of them and have the contract to extend the 31 sets to 11 cars when the new 62 coaches come. Happy to be corrected here though...

did i read here Liverpool to Euston will be twice hourly?

If so from when?

I thought when the new Pendolino sets came onto the franchise?

 

[xtradj]

Do you know when this is due to be? (new sets)

Thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

Do you know when this is due to be?

At the start of the new West Coast franchise, but they are expected to be in country before that just not in use. However there are suggestions that new sets will actually be commissioned by East Coast and used on the Kings Cross to Glasgow services before being sent to the West Coast at the start of the new franchise there.

 

[Aictos]

With regards to the 390s, have a look at First Great Eastern who ordered the 360s who then lost the franchise when it was merged with Anglia Railways and the West Anglia part of WAGN went onto to lose the 360s when they became part of the Greater Anglia franchise managed by National Express.

So I can see the 390s staying put on the West Coast with them just being reliveried to reflect the new owner much like what happens to all rollling stock when new operators take over or if a new livery is specified by Government ie the First Scotrail stock being reliveried in the Saltire livery etc...

How close did the bidders for the East Coast come last time when National Express won it, ie First, Virgin, NX, Arriva?

 

[Failed Unit]

The 91s are also still on the ECML. Voyagers on XC. The stock typically remains with the franchise not the operator as the operator typically only leases it. Even following the CT split up the stock stayed on the same routes. Yes Manchester does not see 170s any more but Birmingham doesn't see 158s. (apart from ATWs that is which were not CTs anyway)