[UPDATED] Reported for having no train ticket

[makroftar]

That depends on the country, right?

 

[Greenback]

I think we're talking at cross purposes here.

Haywain was saying that £80 is the average cost of administering the process, and I feel strongly that is doesn't. You seem to be agreeing with me.

Yes, I probably am! But Haywain is also correct that the amount set by Northern would be decided by an assessment of how much is a realistic figure to allow them to economically cover all of the procedures they undertake over a given period, as well as the deterrent factor.

Some of those will be withdrawn, and not actually lead to any revenue at all, some will require a lot more correspondence to investigate, some will be straightforward.

So, I think everyone is correct to some extent!

 

[Haywain]

Haywain was saying (in essence) that £80 is the average cost of administering the process, and I feel strongly that is isn't, there is also a profit element (which also functions as a deterrent). You seem to be agreeing with me.

No, I wasn't. You said:

The idea that every infraction costs Northern exactly £80 no matter the circumstances is laughably absurd. This is another revenue stream for Train Companies.

I merely made the point that costs will vary, and would be increased by trying to apportion them correctly to each individual case.

Greenback more correctly reads my position on this as recognising that there are various elements that make up this figure, and there is a purpose to applying them in this way.

I have no doubt that Northern, and other TOCs, would far prefer their customers to pay the fares that are due so that they have no need of revenue protection and all it costs to provide, but many people seem to prefer the status quo because they may save themselves a few pounds.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If I was to write back to them explaining my situation but not defending myself (aka pleading guilty) what does that result in? Would that just be an immediate fine and record, no more questions asked, no court/trial and such?

One pleads guilty or not guilty to a court in respect of a criminal case. If convicted by a court, one is then fined by the court and (depending on the offence) has an entry added to their criminal record.

If you negotiate with the TOC at this stage, they might be happy to agree to accept some money from you (they'll name a price) which would be a payment for not prosecuting. In this case you would not have to enter a plea, your case would not be heard in a court, and you would not get a sentence/record.

TOCs do this because fines (issued by a court) go to the government (although a judge can additionally order you to pay compensation to a victim). If you agreed an out of court settlement with the TOC, they would keep the money. However, they might not want to settle 100% of the time, as criminal prosecutions are a handy deterrent.

Sorry to be so pedantic about your wording. I can only echo the good advice you've already been given - wait until the letter comes and answer it honestly and apologetically. In the meantime, try not to worry too much, and if you haven't already done so make a note of all that was said between yourself and the inspectors lest you forget (the letter may take some time to arrive)

 

[Greenback]

If anyone wants to further discuss the admin charges levied by Northern please start a new thread and leave this one on topic. Thanks.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

Sorry to be so pedantic about your wording. I can only echo the good advice you've already been given - wait until the letter comes and answer it honestly and apologetically. In the meantime, try not to worry too much, and if you haven't already done so make a note of all that was said between yourself and the inspectors lest you forget (the letter may take some time to arrive)

Thank you for your response it explains things well!

 

[lucyjacobs89]

UPDATE
I received my letter asking for my response.
After explaining my version of events, I was wondering exactly how to write it. I don't want it to come across as though I'm trying to defend myself and say I've not done something wrong, but at the same time I don't want to outright say I'm guilty, as then I expect they'll prosecute me.

I want to try and issue an out of court settlement whilst accepting I did something wrong.

 

[Greenback]

If you are guilty then it is best to say so now. As has been said previously, it's best to be honest and apologetic, and you can also offer to settle the matter by way of a contribution towards their costs, time spent and fare due.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

If you are guilty then it is best to say so now. As has been said previously, it's best to be honest and apologetic, and you can also offer to settle the matter by way of a contribution towards their costs, time spent and fare due.

My question is though, do I use the word "guilty"?

 

[Greenback]

There's no need to say guilty at all. Just explain what happened, apologise for not buying a ticket before travelling, say that you have learned a valuable lesson about rail travel and it won't happen again.

And then all you have to do is to make sure it doesn't!

 

[lucyjacobs89]

There's no need to say guilty at all. Just explain what happened, apologise for not buying a ticket before travelling, say that you have learned a valuable lesson about rail travel and it won't happen again.

And then all you have to do is to make sure it doesn't!

Alright. And is mentioning to "settle the matter by way of a contribution towards their costs, time spent and fare due" offering an out of court settlement or what? Do I mention the words 'out of court settlement' as I read on the 'Prosecuting Procedures' on this forum that offering a settlement could put me in a 'position of deeper suspicion'.

 

[Greenback]

I would not use the term out of court settlement myself. Just say that you realise you made a mistake and would like to compensate the company and settle the matter... etc. Bear in mind that they don't have to accept the offer, though it usually makes sense for them to do so if you don't have a record of similar offences with them.

Make the offer but don't quote any amount. Wait for them to come back with a yes or no. If the former, they will indicate how much they would accept.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

I would not use the term out of court settlement myself. Just say that you realise you made a mistake and would like to compensate the company and settle the matter... etc.

Okay thank you. By saying this, am I definitely going to get a criminal record? Or if they allow me to pay the payments you mentioned, and it does not go to court, does that avoid a criminal record?

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

If the train company accepts your offer of compensation (or however you word it) then the courts will not be involved, and so there can be no conviction. It becomes a private matter between you and the company.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

If the train company accepts your offer of compensation (or however you word it) then the courts will not be involved, and so there can be no conviction. It becomes a private matter between you and the company.

Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I just drafted this up,

"I wish to offer my sincere apologies for boarding the train from Wigan North Western to Preston station on ##/##/## without a ticket. When on the train, as I was not approached by a ticket seller, I did not purchase a ticket on board. By using the Fishergate exit at Preston, I left the station without paying for my journey. Although I am used to using this exit to leave the station, I understand that this was a foolish decision to make, and I am very sorry for the trouble this matter has caused. I have learned a valuable lesson about rail travel, and I certainly will not board without a ticket again. I realise I have made a mistake, and I would like to offer to settle the matter by way of contribution towards any costs, time spent and the full fare due. I would be very grateful if this offer was accepted."

Should it be longer?

 

[furlong]

I certainly will not board without a ticket again.

Qualify that: what if there was no open ticket office or working ticket machine?

Should it be longer?

There's no need for it to be any longer.

 

[Greenback]

The only slight amendment I would make is to alter the wording that I suggested earlier a little, being as you are talking to the company directly. What about

'contribution to cover your costs, the time you have spent and the full fare due'

 

[b0b]

should she mention that it was never her intention to avoid payment, but she has educated herself and now understands the requirement to always purchase a ticket prior to boarding a train where ticket selling facilities are available?

 

[lucyjacobs89]

Thanks I'll make some changes as suggested.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here is my updated statement:

"I wish to offer my sincere apologies for boarding the train from Wigan North Western to Preston station on #/#/# without a ticket. I did not pay for my ticket before I boarded the train due to being in a slight rush.When on the train, as I was not approached by a ticket seller, I did not purchase a ticket on board. By using the Fishergate exit at Preston, I left the station without paying for my journey. Although I am used to using this exit to leave the station, I understand that this was a foolish decision to make, and I am very sorry for the trouble this matter has caused. I have learned a valuable lesson about rail travel, and I certainly will not board without a ticket again, and when this is not possible, I will seek to pay for my journey on the train or there after. I realise I have made a mistake, and I would like to offer to settle the matter by way of contribution towards your costs due to the time you have spent and the full fare due. I would be very grateful if this offer was accepted."

A quick question - around about how long does it usually take for them to make their decision and respond after I send this back?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I made a large error when writing my statement on the back of the letter (completely copied the wording to a sentence down wrong).

What should I do? Cross it out and do it again on the back, or write on a separate piece of paper and stick it over? I'm now worried that if they see I crossed something out, that incriminates me more. :/

 

[Greenback]

Some more thoughts!

I would consider leaving out the bits about not being approached by a ticket seller on the train. You had already had an opportunity to pay by that time, and it could be read as though you are trying to blame the company rather than taking responsibility for your own actions.

Similarly, I'd take out the piece about if it not being possible to buy before boarding etc, as this comes across as though you might do it again in the right circumstances, despite your assurances.

It's always OK to board without a ticket if there were no facilities to do so at your origin station. It's not OK to be in rush and pass up an opportunity. All you need to say is you didn't know that boarding without a ticket on this route could be a serious matter, and that now that you do realise, you will ensure that it never happens again.

How long it will take depends on their workload, staffing etc.

I'd just cross out the mistake, leaving the original wording visible. You are hoping for leniency, so I wouldn't give them any reason to suspect you of hiding something!

 

[lucyjacobs89]

I would consider leaving out the bits about not being approached by a ticket seller on the train. You had already had an opportunity to pay by that time, and it could be read as though you are trying to blame the company rather than taking responsibility for your own actions.

Similarly, I'd take out the piece about if it not being possible to buy before boarding etc, as this comes across as though you might do it again in the right circumstances, despite your assurances.

It's always OK to board without a ticket if there were no facilities to do so at your origin station. It's not OK to be in rush and pass up an opportunity. All you need to say is you didn't know that boarding without a ticket on this route could be a serious matter, and that now that you do realise, you will ensure that it never happens again!

It's just when I was questioned, I mentioned being in a rush and not being able to pay on the train. He wrote these things down so I thought if I don't mention them my story doesn't match up.

Does this mean it's okay for me to cross through everything I wrote? As now I need to change it all. If it's crossed through are they gonna rea it anyway? They can't take it as my statement if I didn't want it to be used right?

 

[Greenback]

I've never seen one of these forms, and I've never been asked this, as most people ask for advice or have their drafts proof read before committing it to paper!

If you have already written it then I would leave it, to be honest. They are only small points, the main thrust of your reply should just be to admit what you did, say you have learned your lesson, reassure them that it won't happen again and ask for the offence to be disposed of by way of an administrative settlement.

The most important thing is to ensure that you don't end up in the same situation again. It is your responsibility to buy a ticket, not the guard's responsibility to come through the train and sell you one, so you can't rely on this in future. There are any number of good reasons why you may not be able to buy on board, from broken ticket machines to safety critical duties or passenger assistance. You must buy a ticket before boarding, if it happens again your chances of a settlement will be zero.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

I've never seen one of these forms, and I've never been asked this, as most people ask for advice or have their drafts proof read before committing it to paper!

If you have already written it then I would leave it, to be honest. They are only small points, the main thrust of your reply should just be to admit what you did, say you have learned your lesson, reassure them that it won't happen again and ask for the offence to be disposed of by way of an administrative settlement.

The most important thing is to ensure that you don't end up in the same situation again. It is your responsibility to buy a ticket, not the guard's responsibility to come through the train and sell you one, so you can't rely on this in future. There are any number of good reasons why you may not be able to buy on board, from broken ticket machines to safety critical duties or passenger assistance. You must buy a ticket before boarding, if it happens again your chances of a settlement will be zero.

I ensure its not going to happen again, I wouldn't want this situation again! And I started to write it on paper because of the feedback I'd gotten here being generally positive. I guess I was just anxious to get it done. Thanks for the help.

 

[Greenback]

I ensure its not going to happen again, I wouldn't want this situation again! And I started to write it on paper because of the feedback I'd gotten here being generally positive. I guess I was just anxious to get it done. Thanks for the help.

No problem, it's understandable you were anxious. Many people don't realise how serious the situation can be if you are travelling without a ticket when there were facilities available to buy one at the start of the journey. Good luck!

 

[lucyjacobs89]

No problem, it's understandable you were anxious. Many people don't realise how serious the situation can be if you are travelling without a ticket when there were facilities available to buy one at the start of the journey. Good luck!

Yeah. Thanks, I will make sure to come back and update the thread when I get a response, although I might be waiting a while.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm assuming I send it to the address at the top of the letter?

Northern Rail Limited
Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Unit
PO Box 212
Petersfield
GU32 9BQ

?

 

[Greenback]

That looks like the correct address.

 

[furlong]

Also there are sometimes reports on here of replies not having been received (where a cynic might suggest that was because were never sent).

So keep a copy, get a certificate of posting as a minimum (by posting it at a counter at a post office), and phone them a few days later to check they have received it.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, good advice furlong.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

Also there are sometimes reports on here of replies not having been received (where a cynic might suggest that was because were never sent).

So keep a copy, get a certificate of posting as a minimum (by posting it at a counter at a post office), and phone them a few days later to check they have received it.

By keep a copy you mean a copy of what I wrote? I have it written up on my computer so.

And yeah, I was going to pay for special delivery.

Thanks.

 

[furlong]

By keep a copy you mean a copy of what I wrote?

A photocopy. If you have a scanner, scan it, or if you have a camera (on a mobile phone?) take a photograph.