Unite Network Rail Strikes Off

[Carlisle]

It’d take a significant change of mindset. So far on the Railway anyway since periodic re ballots became law, unions recommending continued action have faced very little difficulty obtaining the additional mandates .

 

[Annetts key]

It also tells you something when Network Rail are quickly rearranging T3 engineering possessions to be far longer (earlier start times and later finish times) than normal. In normal times we get told that there is no point asking for longer times, as it won’t be considered. Paying contractor companies extra so that they are prepared to do the needed documentation so that they can carry out jobs that they were not originally covering. Funny how all this ‘extra’ money can be found to pay for all this.

In the medium to long term, the programme of reduction of maintenance that they are introducing will result in more infrastructure reliability problems.

Even more so if the knowledgeable experienced staff leave. As then the process of fixing failed infrastructure takes longer.

Then rather than dealing with the poor maintenance system, they will spend millions doing renews, but advertise it as ‘improvement’ work.

I’ll leave it to the reader to work out the consequences.

 

[brad465]

AIUI 85% in favour,…

Turnout: 70% Accept: 85% Reject: 15%

How many NR staff roughly are TSSA members?

 

[Annetts key]

How many NR staff roughly are TSSA members?

On the front line, very small numbers. TSSA are mainly management grades and some technical grades. With some of these, both TSSA and RMT have joint recognition.

 

[Bald Rick]

.

How many NR staff roughly are TSSA members?

Roughly 6,000, of which 2,500 are in this dispute and would have been voting in this referendum.

 

[Annetts key]

The 2019 figures are in this TSSA document which is on their website.

At the end of 2019 we had 18087 members

At the end of 2019 we had 5641 members in Network Rail

 

[Bald Rick]

The 2019 figures are in this TSSA document which is on their website.

It’s now 2022, and the numbers balloted in June were over 6,000.

 

[Annetts key]

It’s now 2022, and the numbers balloted in June were over 6,000.

And? Is a difference of around 359 going to make much difference?

Also, I linked to a source as per normal practice on these forums. There may well be later, more accurate figures available.

Also I was not aware of your post when I started composing my reply. So please keep your hair on.

 

[Bald Rick]

And? Is a difference of around 359 going to make much difference?

Also, I linked to a source as per normal practice on these forums. There may well be later, more accurate figures available.

Also I was not aware of your post when I started composing my reply. So please keep your hair on.

Sorry. another horrendous day.

On the point about shifting the start / finish times of engineering works, it’s considerably cheaper to spend a frankly small amount of cash to do this than lose £100m+ of work.

 

[43066]

It’d take a significant change of mindset. So far on the Railway anyway since periodic re ballots became law, unions recommending continued action have faced very little difficulty obtaining the additional mandates .

Expect more of the same if this weak, incompetent, and profoundly dishonest government seriously believe they can legislate their way out if this mess (amongst all the other largely self inflicted messes they’ve created), as the clock ticks down to electoral oblivion….

What’s the saying: You have the watches, we have the time…

 

[Thirteen]

I find it odd that Mick Lynch was having a pop at the Labour Party about not going on picket lines and supporting strikes when they've sorted their dispute with TfW which is owned by the erm...Labour Welsh Government.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I find it odd that Mick Lynch was having a pop at the Labour Party about not going on picket lines and supporting strikes when they've sorted their dispute with TfW which is owned by the erm...Labour Welsh Government.

Unite and the TSSA are affiliated to the Labour Party. The RMT are not affiliated to the Labour Party. The RMT disaffiliated from the Labour Party in 2004 and have not subsequently reaffiliated even when Jeremy Corbyn was Labour Party leader.
Result of the TSSA ballot:

Members accept Network Rail offer | TSSA

TSSA members at Network Rail have voted overwhelmingly to accept an offer in the national rail dispute over pay, job security and conditions. Read more here.

www.tssa.org.uk

 

[Chester1]

I haven’t logged in for a while, probably since the initial ballot results came in. I saw people claiming to work on the railway, for example some body saying the signallers would vote against etc.

Since then I wonder how many people have been to there local picket and had a chat with the people on there, why they are on strike?

All these people claiming to love the railway, and what it brings, but none of them talking to the men and woman that have chosen to strike.

TSSA bring nothing to the table, and would have probably accepted a paycut if it meant they kept the smallest bit of relevancy.

We have years left in us. You don’t understand how much management have been turning the screw and really messing up morale, constantly demeaning and down talking us is not a good look

Some members of the forum are anti union. However, some rail staff do give the impression that rail staff are special. I don't know if thats because all the "key worker" stuff during the pandemic. Its a bog standard industrial dispute and some people act like they are in the vanguard of a socialist revolution! I work in a different profession and I recently voted to strike. I simply want more pay. I have a small number of colleagues who really buy into workers vs capitalists stuff, but most of us don't and just want a 2% more than our pay offer.

RMT members can dismiss Unite and TSSA but their vote will encourage the government to hold out, potentially even until May 2024. Two out of three recognised unions accepting the offer is good PR for the government.

I do wonder how long it will take before the small number of operational staff in the TSSA start getting called scabs etc.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Unite and the TSSA are affiliated to the Labour Party. The RMT are not affiliated to the Labour Party. The RMT disaffiliated from the Labour Party in 2004 and have not subsequently reaffiliated even when Jeremy Corbyn was Labour Party leader.
Result of the TSSA ballot:

Members accept Network Rail offer | TSSA

TSSA members at Network Rail have voted overwhelmingly to accept an offer in the national rail dispute over pay, job security and conditions. Read more here.

www.tssa.org.uk

well at least one group off the radar but they have limited impact anyhow

 

[12LDA28C]

The difference is that nurses can vote with their feet and emigrate to other English speaking countries for much more pay. One of the reasons so few NHS nurses are British.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Rather more likely is that nurses will leave the NHS and join nursing agencies to work in the private sector for much more pay, which is exactly what is already happening.

 

[43066]

some people act like they are in the vanguard of a socialist revolution!

Just in case that’s aimed at me: certainly not, in my case. That description also doesn’t apply to any of the the railway staff I know. All of whom, to a man, are just ordinary people, doing a demanding and often unpleasant job, and trying to live their lives.

You also don’t have to be a socialist, or anything approaching it, to be completely and utterly fed up with this government. I’m not ashamed to say I’ve voted Conservative many times in the past. I am, however, utterly ashamed of what the Tory party has come to represent, of late.

I recently voted to strike. I simple want more pay.

Same here. There are bills to pay.

Rather more likely is that nurses will leave the NHS and join nursing agencies to work in the private sector for much more pay, which is exactly what is already happening.

Who can blame them?! Doctors are doing the same.

 

[Chester1]

Just in case that’s aimed at me: certainly not, in my case. That description also doesn’t apply to any of the the railway staff I know. All of whom, to a man, are just ordinary people, doing a demanding and often unpleasant job, and trying to live their lives.

You also don’t have to be a socialist, or anything approaching it, to be completely and utterly fed up with this government. I’m not ashamed to say I’ve voted Conservative many times in the past. I am, however, utterly ashamed of what the Tory party has come to represent, of late.

It wasn't aimed at you specifically as I don't know your politics (which sound like mine - middle ground floating voter). However there are some union supporters for whom being very anti Tory gives them their sense of purpose in life. The tone is much more than being fed up with government after 12 years. The current (and the previous) leader have given me the impression that RMT won't reaffilate with Labour because even under Corbyn Labour was too moderate for their taste, let alone under Starmer.

Labour is in an extremely awkward spot, they will probably have to support their affiliate unions TSSA and Unite and say RMT members should accept the NR deal. I think the government might be inclined to cut a deal with TSSA and Unite in the ToC dispute. All three would have to be in the room of course but the Tories can make an offer that TSSA and Unite will accept but RMT won't. If Labour backs TSSA and Unite it would really reduce political pressure on the government.

 

[Annetts key]

The RMT disaffiliated from the Labour Party in 2004 and have not subsequently reaffiliated even when Jeremy Corbyn was Labour Party leader.

Actually you have it backwards. The Labour Party cut ties with the RMT and now does not accept the RMT request to be affiliated to it. Why? Because the RMT works with whichever MPs agree to support the RMTs objectives. The RMT supports the MPs that work with it. This is mostly Labour MPs.

The Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants (ASRS) union is considered to be instrumental in the creation of the Labour Party. Later the ASRS merged with some other railway unions, to become the the National Union of Railwaymen (NUR). Which much later on, itself merged with a shipping union, hence then changing name to the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (or RMT).

 

[coppercapped]

Some members of the forum are anti union. However, some rail staff do give the impression that rail staff are special. I don't know if thats because all the "key worker" stuff during the pandemic. Its a bog standard industrial dispute and some people act like they are in the vanguard of a socialist revolution!

This, I suggest, is not far from the truth. Rule 1 of the RMT's Rule Book under the heading 'Name, Objectives and Constitution of the Union', sub-heading 'Objects' states:

4. The objects of the Union shall be:-

(a) to secure the complete organisation of all workers employed by any board, company or authority in connection with rail, sea and other transport and ancillary undertakings and offshore energy;

(b) to work for the supersession of the capitalist system by a socialistic order of society;

The very existence of clause 4(b) muddies the waters between actions taken and statements made by the union's management during an industrial dispute. How much of what is said and done is connected purely with the dispute and how much is aimed at achieving the political changes being sought by the union?

I have no argument or disagreement with people trying to change society, but I question whether this is should be a valid aim for an industrial union nowadays, especially when there are calls for more transparency in the internal dealings of many organisations in all walks of life - business, political, religious and so on. If the members of the union desire 'the supersession of the capitalist system by a socialistic order of society' then I maintain that this should be a matter for a political grouping independent of a trades union.

I am aware of the history of the RMT, including its predecessor's role in the creation of the Parliamentary Labour Party, so maybe the RMT considers itself to have grandfather rights in this context.

I work in a different profession and I recently voted to strike. I simply want more pay. I have a small number of colleagues who really buy into workers vs capitalists stuff, but most of us don't and just want a 2% more than our pay offer.

RMT members can dismiss Unite and TSSA but their vote will encourage the government to hold out, potentially even until May 2024. Two out of three recognised unions accepting the offer is good PR for the government.

I do wonder how long it will take before the small number of operational staff in the TSSA start getting called scabs etc.

 

[Thirteen]

Keep in mind, the Tories and the right wing media would have an absolute field day if Keir Starmer went on a picket line because Labour while supportive of workers, they know when they're in government, wouldn't be able to realistically give the unions everything they wanted and as Alan Johnson pointed out on Sky News a few months ago, if you want to the party of Government, you have to be supportive of the people who are affected by strikes as well as the strikers.

 

[Carlisle]

What’s the saying: You have the watches, we have the time…

Yes but the phrase ‘Time is money’ also applies, unless one’s boss is acting like Messers Musk & Heblethwaite there’s likely a limit on the amount most employee’s feel willing or able to sacrifice for any particular campaign however idealistic

 

[Falcon1200]

constantly demeaning and down talking us is not a good look

TSSA bring nothing to the table, and would have probably accepted a paycut if it meant they kept the smallest bit of relevancy.

Pot, kettle?

 

[LAX54]

I must admit I am becoming increasingly annoyed that my pay rise as a member of staff in an Operations grade is entirely dependent on changes to Maintenance terms and conditions. I voted no in the referendum out of solidarity with my maintenance colleagues who will be shafted by the proposed changes, but if those T&C changes weren't part of the deal it would have been an unequivocal yes from me.

Note that I'm annoyed at the company for tying my pay rise up in a deal which has absolutely nothing to do with me or my grade, rather than the union for fighting for its members. I understand why the union has to fight it but I am hearing more and more talk among my Ops colleagues that we're just being used as the muscle in a fight that isn't anything to do with us. Of course that's exactly the reaction the company wants - divide and conquer!

Think its the RMT that tied it all together rather than NR, and it is now having all the hallmarks of 89/90, which was in the end, a disaster for Ops grade !

 

[mpthomson]

Pot, kettle?

Mick Lynch was attempting to do the very same thing this morning, ie dismiss other unions as irrelevant.

 

[43066]

Mick Lynch was attempting to do the very same thing this morning, ie dismiss other unions as irrelevant.

To be fair they sort of are irrelevant to RMT members. Wasn’t he just making that point?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2022 ==

Yes but the phrase ‘Time is money’ also applies, unless one’s boss is acting like Messers Musk & Heblethwaite there’s likely a limit on the amount most employee’s feel willing or able to sacrifice for any particular campaign however idealistic

Such touching sympathy for the staff whose jobs you are wishing away.

 

[alxndr]

We have years left in us. You don’t understand how much management have been turning the screw and really messing up morale, constantly demeaning and down talking us is not a good look

It depends where you are. Where I currently work is very strong across all disciplines, but from talking to people where I used to work it's not the case there. Union support has always been weaker there and from what I've heard quite a few are crossing picket lines and voted to accept.

 

[Carlisle]

Such touching sympathy for the staff whose jobs you are wishing away.

Aside from volunteers, who’s being made redundant? I must’ve missed that announcement?

 

[Sunset route]

Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.

Why did the RMT see fit to put the offer to their members if they were going to recommend rejecting it? And if they don't mind putting offers to their members that they don't think are worthy of acceptance, why didn't they do the same with the TOC offer? It just seems like they're going through the motions.

I’ve been on the railway and Union long enough, that I’ve have voted against the unions recommendations, one time where the union recommended we vote to accept and the members voted not to accept and the other time where the union recommended that we don’t vote to accept and we did. At the end of the day it’s just guidance and even the union hierarchy can be out of step with the coalface at times.

 

[43066]

Aside from volunteers, who’s being made redundant? I must’ve missed that announcement?

Sometimes it isn’t what’s said, it’s what isn’t said that’s important to listen for. Did you also miss the government refusing to give guarantees of no compulsory redundancies?

Wilfil naïveté.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2022 ==

I’ve been on the railway and Union long enough, that I’ve have voted against the unions recommendations, one time where the union recommended we vote to accept and the members voted not to accept and the other time where the union recommended that we don’t vote to accept and we did. At the end of the day it’s just guidance and even the union hierarchy can be out of step with the coalface at times.

It’s funny how the (oft repeated) suggestion that unions unduly influence/coerce their members only ever seems to come from those who clearly dislike unions, or have an anti union agenda for whatever reason. If this type of thing was actually an issue you’d expect union members themselves to raise it on an anonymous internet forum, but they never seem to…

The members I know in real life also all seem perfectly content with the voting arrangements!

 

[greyman42]

Sometimes it isn’t what’s said, it’s what isn’t said that’s important to listen for. Did you also miss the government refusing to give guarantees of no compulsory redundancies?

Over what period of time must this guarantee last?