Unite Network Rail Strikes Off

[Wolfie]

Two offences perhaps:

- The wilful publication of inaccurate or misleading information with regard to an ongoing or potential industrial dispute
- The failure to publically retract within a reasonable period of evidence being provided, by way of the same media as the inaccurate information was published, unintentionally inaccurate or misleading information which was published with regard to an ongoing or potential industrial dispute

I reckon that would do it. Probably wouldn't justify prison time but a substantial fine would be an idea.

Who gets to decide, particularly when various things can be mooted in the course of confidential discussions and back-channel discussions, what is accurate though?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Jeez, Mick Lynch just fell into a trap by dismissing both Unite and the TSSA because that can be used against him and the RMT in future interviews. It makes him look like a hypocrite saying all unions should be united against the employers and Government but then dismiss unions who have be able to reach an agreement.

Absolutely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

He was close to losing it in two interviews on the radio and did when questioned by Richard Madeley on GMB. He's been ok on the media before this but he really does need to dial back the rhetoric at the moment.

Oh come on, that Richard "Alan Partridge" Madeley monologue rant caused embarrassment for only one person, who should be destined for Radio Norwich shortly, and that wasn't Mick Lynch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

I think he's in danger of the Government considering that he's actually engaging in illegal secondary action, i.e. that the dispute is mainly continuing in solidarity with the guards opposing DOO.

What the Government feels on the matter really doesn't matter. What, if it comes to it, a Court's view is though...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

I don't believe that they are truly anonymous. My ballot paper had some sort of serial number on the bottom.

So do general election ballot papers. However TU industrial ballots are run, by law, by independent third parties for a reason....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

It doesn't look at the moment like the Government are going to budge. They're using the same approach with the Nurses, a group that is likely to have rather more public support than rail workers, and even Labour have said the RCN's demand is unreasonable.

So I'd predict further disruption, getting less over time as staff need the money and have to return to work, and eventually a grudging acceptance by the staff that this is the best they'll get. Industrial relations will remain poor as a result.

The difference is that nurses can vote with their feet and emigrate to other English speaking countries for much more pay. One of the reasons so few NHS nurses are British.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

It's pure political warfare now. Lynch has become the Scargill-esque bogeyman to the government and the right wing media and they'd sacrifice the railways to beat him, as they did the mines. They put the DOO in at the last minute purposely, they actively don't want the dispute resolved, they want to make an example out of Lynch and his union.

The government will be prepared for this to go on for years.

Whatever the rights or wrongs l fear that you are correct and indeed predicted as much a PM or two ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

The DfT/Government shouldn't have the priveledge of behaving like a private shareholder when dealing with a public service. It should be held to scrutiny.

Actually, even in the private sector, I'm inclined to think that scrutiny and transparency should be the order of the day. What if you had a private company that was a vital part of the national manufacturing supply chain, but one of the major shareholders is a sovereign wealth fund owned by a dodgy foreign Government. Is it right that the dodgy foreign Government should be able to pull strings in secret over our national manufacturing chain ?

So you'd be happy with highly sensitive commercial information being made available to competitors worldwide? Thank God that all you can do is post on here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

I would simply say that the parties who are legitimately involved - The trades union and management, had reached an agreement, and that's where it should have stayed.

Really? So you actually think that the people actually paying for the whole shebang should just offer a blank cheque? Utter delusion.

 

[Kite159]

Is it tomorrow (Thursday) the results of the TSSA vote get announced?

I suspect if that comes back as a "yes" from the TSSA members, for the same deal with Network Rail (?) it might make it difficult for the RMT when it comes to the table. After-all "if the deal is accepted by Unite & TSSA, what makes the RMT think they are special to warrant something different?)

 

[Carlisle]

It isn’t going to happen on every route, no. But this is about DOO being in staff contracts and there is logic in having it in all contracts to allow DOO working in future.

Didn’t we establish that SWR drivers have DOO in their contracts, even though no SWR services are DOO? It should have been done across all operators well before now.

Absolutely as DFTs recently spent a fortune leasing several new DOO capable fleets they’re bound to try & utilise them where deemed beneficial to industry & users, just as many railways throughout Europe & elsewhere have done for decades.

 

[Thirteen]

Is it tomorrow (Thursday) the results of the TSSA vote get announced?

I suspect if that comes back as a "yes" from the TSSA members, for the same deal with Network Rail (?) it might make it difficult for the RMT when it comes to the table. After-all "if the deal is accepted by Unite & TSSA, what makes the RMT think they are special to warrant something different?)

I agree, having two unions on board means Network Rail has the upper hand.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

He was close to losing it in two interviews on the radio and did when questioned by Richard Madeley on GMB. He's been ok on the media before this but he really does need to dial back the rhetoric at the moment.

I bought a Mick Lynch advent calendar some time ago. Unfortunately it turned out to be poor value - it only had one window!

 

[High Dyke]

Indeed, the RMT are showing their inability to negotiate or reach a sensible compromise! How many of those voting will have simply followed the union advice to reject without reading the T’s and C’s of the offer?

Equally, how many of those voting read the offer, for both ops and maintenance and voted with their heads. Not because the union leadership advised to reject. Remember, Network Rail threatened to withdraw the offer if staff voted NO, before they'd even started voting.

Talking to a number of colleagues, many only saw the carrot of the payrise, but ignored the big stick to beat them with. However, once management issued their threat it goaded quite a few to change their opinion.

 

[HST274]

If they are 'imposing' the t&cs changes anyways, will they also impose the payrise? And can they actually give the payrise to only Unite and the TSSA and leave the RMT out. Or will all not get it. It was explained up above but my being a tad ignorant I still don't quite get it.

 

[yorksrob]

Really? So you actually think that the people actually paying for the whole shebang should just offer a blank cheque? Utter delusion.

You seem to be very unobservant, since you've missed the Government claiming at every opportunity that it's a matter between the employers and their staff. Perhaps they're delusional.

If those "paying for the whole shebang" (as if paying passengers aren't paying for it as well) should be managing the process, why are they hiding behind companies and mealy mouthed words.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

So you'd be happy with highly sensitive commercial information being made available to competitors worldwide? Thank God that all you can do is post on here.

I'm not part of the establishment who's allowed everything to be sold off to our competitors in the first place.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just heard there were more talks planned for tomorrow. Any chance of the NR strike getting suspended?

not this weeks. In any event the train plans are now locked in up to Christmas (albeit much of next week has yet to be published).

Is it tomorrow (Thursday) the results of the TSSA vote get announced?

Yes, lunchtime.

If they are 'imposing' the t&cs changes anyways, will they also impose the payrise?

unlikely I’d have thought. Why would they do that ?

And can they actually give the payrise to only Unite and the TSSA and leave the RMT out.

No, that’s illegal (within the same collective barging group).

if there are any collective barging groups represented only by TSSA or Unite (or both), then they could be settled.

 

[Worldwide]

Is it tomorrow (Thursday) the results of the TSSA vote get announced?

I suspect if that comes back as a "yes" from the TSSA members, for the same deal with Network Rail (?) it might make it difficult for the RMT when it comes to the table. After-all "if the deal is accepted by Unite & TSSA, what makes the RMT think they are special to warrant something different?)

I think the challenge will be RMT represent Maintenance which is a sticking point with the RMT.

Its all good and well meeting with ministers, but all's they say is the industry needs to modernise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Equally, how many of those voting read the offer, for both ops and maintenance and voted with their heads. Not because the union leadership advised to reject. Remember, Network Rail threatened to withdraw the offer if staff voted NO, before they'd even started voting.

Talking to a number of colleagues, many only saw the carrot of the payrise, but ignored the big stick to beat them with. However, once management issued their threat it goaded quite a few to change their opinion.

The referendum was purely about pay as Network Rail have repeatedly said modernising maintenance is happening whether its liked or not.

The national consultation has already been concluded and the regional consultation will start in the next few days.

 

[Chester1]

Is it tomorrow (Thursday) the results of the TSSA vote get announced?

I suspect if that comes back as a "yes" from the TSSA members, for the same deal with Network Rail (?) it might make it difficult for the RMT when it comes to the table. After-all "if the deal is accepted by Unite & TSSA, what makes the RMT think they are special to warrant something different?)

If TSSA vote for the deal it will help the government manage the political fall out of strikes. Ministers on TV and radio saying 2 out of 3 of the unions for Network Rail staff have accepted their offer will cut through to sections of the public. I doubt that will change the RMTs position though.

If the government wants a big fight with the RMT they would be best doing enough to settle all disputes with Unite and TSSA. They could then leave the NR and (non driver) ToC disputes bubbling by not making a better offer. Next they could focus on getting DOO in the contract of every driver for the English ToCs (even if it means more pay). Collectively that would leave RMT in a very difficult position on both the NR and ToC disputes.

 

[Worldwide]

If TSSA vote for the deal it will help the government manage the political fall out of strikes. Ministers on TV and radio saying 2 out of 3 of the unions for Network Rail staff have accepted their offer will cut through to sections of the public. I doubt that will change the RMTs position though.

If the government wants a big fight with the RMT they would be best doing enough to settle all disputes with Unite and TSSA. They could then leave the NR and (non driver) ToC disputes bubbling by not making a better offer. Next they could focus on getting DOO in the contract of every driver for the English ToCs (even if it means more pay). Collectively that would leave RMT in a very difficult position on both the NR and ToC disputes.

I think the challenge will be RMT and TSSA have the collective bargaining agreement over bands 5-8 for example

 

[yorksrob]

Given that other public sector strikers are asking for far greater pay settlements (19% for the nurses i heard on the radio) this should make the rail type demands of 9-10% over two years seem more reasonable.

 

[Worldwide]

Given that other public sector strikers are asking for far greater pay settlements (19% for the nurses i heard on the radio) this should make the rail type demands of 9-10% over two years seem more reasonable.

NWR have been offered at least 9% over two years with the lowest paid getting about 14%

 

[yorksrob]

NWR have been offered at least 9% over two years with the lowest paid getting about 14%

Yes, but as with everything on the railway, I assume it's all the other bits and pieces that are causing the conflict.

 

[Falcon1200]

Greater Anglia yes but Scotrail only permits driver door release, except on legacy SMA routes.

Except Airdrie/Bathgate/Edinburgh, in no way an SMA legacy route, leading to the previously mentioned absurd situation of some trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh running DOO but others not. Although of course, had DOO not been agreed it would have been even more absurd, with trains running DOO to Airdrie but requiring a Guard beyond!
And it should be noted that Class 385 sets operate quite happily DOO between Glasgow Central and Lanark, Gourock and Wemyss Bay, but the exact same units cannot between Glasgow Queen Street and Alloa or Dunblane, for example.

 

[Worldwide]

Yes, but as with everything on the railway, I assume it's all the other bits and pieces that are causing the conflict.

Yes as a government funded organisation efficiencies are required to fund the pay rise. The sticking point at the moment is maintenance however regardless of what ever happens NWR are doing it anyway as they need to.

 

[weeklycommuter]

As a mathematician and statistian by background l hate deceptive use of figures.... Accepted by less than 30% of RMT members eligible to vote. To assume that members who for whatever reason didn't vote were in favour is frankly rubbish.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==


I make it 29.9% (rounding errors no doubt) but l agree your logic.

I do not know the reason why 2513 RMT members entitled to vote in the ballot to continue industrial action for six months were declared not eligible to vote in the e-referendum but this shows the two results for the 21053 RMT members eligible to vote in the ballot to continue industrial action (I assume no change in this number in the short interval between the two ballots).
16th November 2022 Are you prepared to take strike action?
Number of individuals who were entitled to vote in the ballot:21053
Number of votes cast in the ballot:14767
Yes:13511
No:1240
invalid voting papers returned:16
Not voting: 6286
12th December 2022 e-referendum on Network Rail offer
Eligible to vote:18540
Votes cast:15370
Reject:9772
Accept:5598
Not voting: 3170
Not asked as not considered eligible to vote: 2513
The e-referendum result was 9772 reject and 5598 accept so of votes cast it is 64% reject and 36% accept, nearly 2 to 1 in favour of reject. The problem is that the RMT cannot force any of their members involved in the dispute to take part in the strike action, the RMT has to persuade them to take part. It is therefore not useful to compare it with a general election result. I assume those RMT members involved in the dispute who disagree with the strike action will want to keep a good working relationship with those they work with so with the almost unanimous result in favour of strike action on 16 November I guess those who disagree would respect the result and take part in the strikes. However will this continue to be the case with the e-referendum result of 12 December, especially if members of other unions have voted to settle? I have been a member of a union for many years and was long ago involved in an industrial dispute, I stayed the course but others abandoned the action as it dragged on. The result of the TSSA ballot is due today.

 

[Evelynm]

That could equally well read 'the RMT saw fit to sabotage it for this non-issue', given that DOO has been in operation for 40 years and many RMT staff work or travel on DOO trains every single day.



A change which began 40 years ago! And which was not reversed in any way, let's not forget, under 13 years of Labour rule. What the RMT should be focussing on is the detail; What services does the Government/DfT/TOCs intend to convert to DOO? Surely not every UK passenger train, I find that hard to believe, and I cannot see that long distance services will ever run with just one member of staff, the Driver of course, on board. But there are are many other services where DOO would be quite reasonable, in for example the ludicrous situation between Glasgow and Edinburgh where one route is DOO but the others are not.

Regardless of the true situation concerning DOO, I do understand that staff have concerns, and the very least the TOCs should be saying is that no staff will be made redundant, or suffer any reduction in basic or take home pay, if DOO is extended.

Blame ASLEF for DOO. They were happy to accept it at other tocs, indeed dating back to the Bedpan electrics. Too late to shut the stable door now.

 

[43066]

It isn’t going to happen on every route, no. But this is about DOO being in staff contracts and there is logic in having it in all contracts to allow DOO working in future.

It self evidently isn’t about that, because there’s no proposal to amend contracts (and it’s nothing to do with drivers’ contracts). It’s simply an attempt to prevent a deal being reached by asking a union representing guards to accept the destruction of their own jobs in principle.

I don’t doubt you will love that, because (as always) you have a chip on your shoulder about train-crew Ts and Cs and loathe unions. Others might think needlessly prolonging a damaging industrial dispute costing the economy £1.5bn shows the government has its priorities wrong…

Absolutely as DFTs recently spent a fortune leasing several new DOO capable fleets they’re bound to try & utilise them where deemed beneficial to industry & users, just as many railways throughout Europe & elsewhere have done for decades.

Again - it probably seems like that to you, because you’re another one with an obsession with DOO and all-too-obvious bitterness over traincrew Ts and Cs. Anyone with a modicum of objectivity can see quite clearly what is happening here.

Yes as a government funded organisation efficiencies are required to fund the pay rise. The sticking point at the moment is maintenance however regardless of what ever happens NWR are doing it anyway as they need to.

That’s the line the government are trotting out. No (or very few) “efficiencies” were required to achieve similar deals in Scotland and Wales. The railway also isn’t solely government funded.

 

[Carlisle]

That’s the line the government are trotting out. No (or very few) “efficiencies” were required to achieve similar deals in Scotland and Wales.

See post #259 from an experienced operator about how short sighted & ridiculous the Scottish deal actually is , not sure about Wales not been for a while .

 

[43066]

See post #259 from an experienced operator about how short sighted & ridiculous the Scottish deal actually is , not sure about Wales not been for a while .

Post #259 was written by myself.

In any case the Scottish deal is only “ridiculous” if you’re (for some strange reason - almost as if it somehow benefits you personally) viewing it through the prism of being obsessed with DOO and thinking it should be everywhere immediately. I doubt Scottish rail users think it’s ridiculous when they will have a functioning railway over the next few weeks.

Others might reasonably point out that deliberately scuppering any chance of a deal by insisting on a blanket “in principle” acceptance of something that won’t be implemented for years is what’s short sighted and ridiculous.

 

[Carlisle]

Sorry post #256

 

[43066]

Sorry post #256

I wondered if you meant that.

To be fair, that really does no more than say “DOO happens on this bit, so why not this bit?”. You have been discussing these issues long enough to know full well that has long been the case at various points of the network.

That wont be changing anytime soon regardless of any “in principle” acceptance by the RMT. So ask yourself why the government (not the industry) wanted to insist on this…

 

[Falcon1200]

I doubt Scottish rail users think it’s ridiculous when they will have a functioning railway over the next few weeks

Although we do not have a functioning railway up here even today, which is not an RMT/NR strike day, because Scotrail cannot be bothered to run anything more than the very limited timetable for the strike days!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Scotland is not immune from financial pressures on public services:

Scottish budget likely to target higher earners

Finance Secretary John Swinney says his budget will include "decisive action" to tackle the cost of living crisis.

www.bbc.co.uk

Mr Swinney said the government would use its taxation powers to the "maximum extent that is responsible" and has warned that "difficult decisions" will need to be made on funding for public services.
Many departments are expected to be see real-terms cuts as the government continues to grapple with high inflation and interest rates and the cost of economic support measures.

It remains to be seen how that translates to the railway in Scotland.
Wales faces the same issues.
"There is no such thing as a free lunch".

EDIT:


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

The BBC is reporting that TSSA has accepted the offer from Network Rail (see 1312 here):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-63985437

Members of the TSSA at Network Rail have voted overwhelmingly to accept the company's pay offer, the union has just announced.

Also the Guardian report:

TSSA members at Network Rail vote to accept improved pay deal

Union’s organising chief says package significantly better than offer from train operators, where strikes will continue

www.theguardian.com

The TSSA’s organising director, Luke Chester, said it was “great news and a great deal for our members in Network Rail. It just shows what can be done through negotiations when there’s a serious offer on the table”.
He said strikes had won the improved offer, which would mean an 11% rise for those on lower salaries, and that the deal was significantly better than anything proposed by the train operating companies, where industrial action would continue.

 

[Bald Rick]

AIUI 85% in favour,…

 

[yoyothehobo]

Turnout: 70% Accept: 85% Reject: 15%

 

[Thirteen]

I do wonder how much longer the RMT can continue striking with NR? I do think if they have to do another ballot in six months, I can imagine not many voting to strike but just doing action short of strike.

 

[SignallerJohn]

I haven’t logged in for a while, probably since the initial ballot results came in. I saw people claiming to work on the railway, for example some body saying the signallers would vote against etc.

Since then I wonder how many people have been to there local picket and had a chat with the people on there, why they are on strike?

All these people claiming to love the railway, and what it brings, but none of them talking to the men and woman that have chosen to strike.

TSSA bring nothing to the table, and would have probably accepted a paycut if it meant they kept the smallest bit of relevancy.

I do wonder how much longer the RMT can continue striking with NR? I do think if they have to do another ballot in six months, I can imagine not many voting to strike but just doing action short of strike.

We have years left in us. You don’t understand how much management have been turning the screw and really messing up morale, constantly demeaning and down talking us is not a good look