Ukraine-Where will it end?

[kylemore]

Well if it was a Russian shell/rocket/missile that fell in Ukraine and had been launched by Russian forces I would expect it to feature simply because Russia would have just carried out something that could be perceived as an act of war against Ukraine!

On the other hand Ukrainian forces hitting deliberately or otherwise targets within Ukraine isn't quite as significant an event. The deaths of civilians, especially if they were targetted, are reprehensible but it isn't an act of war by another state.

Yes but Ukrainian shells landed on Russian territory killing one and injuring two - one an 82 yr old women, and that wasn't reported in the one o'clock news either. It seems some "Acts of War" are more Acts of War-ishy than others!

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah I hadn't realised that. That does make things a bit more suspect you're right. I thought we were talking about Ukrainian shells landing on Ukraine!

 

[Oswyntail]

...
I see "Kiev" has managed to flatten an apartment building in Snezhny killing 4 civilians inside - I wonder if that will be in the BBC one o'clock news today?

OK, not the "One O'Clock News - but it is reported.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28309034

A warplane has attacked a rebel-held town with rockets in eastern Ukraine, shattering homes and killing 11 people.

Rockets struck the town of Snizhne in Donetsk region around 07:00 (04:00 GMT), hitting a block of flats and a tax office.

The rebels blamed the attack on Ukraine's air force - a claim denied by Ukrainian sources.

(The report continues)
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Yes but Ukrainian shells landed on Russian territory killing one and injuring two - one an 82 yr old women, and that wasn't reported in the one o'clock news either. It seems some "Acts of War" are more Acts of War-ishy than others!

Could you point us in the direction of a reliable source for this, please.

 

[TheEdge]

The Ukrainian military is starting to get its act together, not that it's really their fault after decades of neglect and lack of funding. Still a heavy price is being paid on both sides, I saw some images on another website of equipment the separatists were using and if the Russian Federation wasn't supplying them with arms I'll eat my hat. Though I still reckon there are Russian soldiers that are doing some of the fighting, they have shot down several Ukrainian helicopters and you don't learn to so that over night..

Yea, I don't doubt for a second there are Russians and Russian equipment there. Some of the images are not of tradition rebels. Rebels ride around in technicals, vans, trucks. They do not ride around in modern military IFVs and APCs which these Ukrainian rebels seem to have quite a lot of.

 

[kylemore]

OK, not the "One O'Clock News - but it is reported.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28309034
(The report continues)
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Could you point us in the direction of a reliable source for this, please.

RIA Novosti - ria.ru

Whether you regard it as "reliable" is of course up to yourself.

They're also reporting that a number of wounded Ukrainian soldiers are being treated in a Russian Hospital.
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Yea, I don't doubt for a second there are Russians and Russian equipment there. Some of the images are not of tradition rebels. Rebels ride around in technicals, vans, trucks. They do not ride around in modern military IFVs and APCs which these Ukrainian rebels seem to have quite a lot of.

Surely if Russia was going to be "exposed" giving military hardware to the "rebels" they'd make it worth their while, rather than a few old APC's?

Isn't it more likely that there is more of this equipment stored in military depots than would be likely here and that relatively more men have military training due to the history of conscription?

 

[reb0118]

Yes but Ukrainian shells landed on Russian territory killing one and injuring two - one an 82 yr old women, and that wasn't reported in the one o'clock news either. It seems some "Acts of War" are more Acts of War-ishy than others!

Russia (as the Soviet Union) also claimed that the Finns had shelled Russian territory prior to the Winter War and used that as a casus belli. The Finns fearing that the Russians would use just such an excuse had previously moved their artillery out of range of the border.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

[kylemore]

Well as long as we're talking Pretexts the downing of the Malaysian airliner looks fairly pretexty to me. The Lusitania of the skies?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well as long as we're talking Pretexts the downing of the Malaysian airliner looks fairly pretexty to me. The Lusitania of the skies?

Do you give any credence to the intercepted telephone calls late yesterday between the Russian seperatists and Moscow and the sudden departure of the BUK surface-to-air missile launcher from Eastern Ukraine back over the border back into Russia ?

 

[kylemore]

Possibly, I don't know - the worst case scenario from their side is that the pro-Russian side engaged what they thought to be a Ukrainian Military Transport and that went very wrong.

I think any sane analysis would have to discount the option that the pro-Russian side would deliberately target what they knew to be a "neutral" commercial jet as it is unlikely any benefit would accrue to them from such an act - the exact opposite in fact.

However benefit to the Kiev side and their backers there is in abundance if the World can be convinced the pro-Russians did it.

If the Kiev side or associated Intelligence assets knew the "rebels" had captured (or even been allowed to capture?) the Buks unit they apparently did - how difficult would it be to fire one of your own and pass it off as the "rebel's" missile? Possibly even waiting for the "rebels" to target a Ukrainian Transport (Bait?) before firing your own missile from as near as possible at the nearest unfortunate "Neutral", inciting international outrage at the Russians?

Far fetched? After 9/11 has anything been far fetched?

Cui bono?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Possibly, I don't know - the worst case scenario from their side is that the pro-Russian side engaged what they thought to be a Ukrainian Military Transport and that went very wrong.

Interesting that one of the spokesmen for the pro-Russian separatists made a claim that they had shot down a military aircraft, very shortly after the Malaysian airliner was downed.....then after a while, all went quiet....then matters seemed to take a different point of view.

It is duly noted that the pro-Russian separatists have been totally correct with every claim for the downing of either Ukrainian military helicopters and transport planes to date, which they seem to make within minutes of each occurrence, in order that they can boast of their success.

I note that the pro-Russian separatists, for the second day running, are not allowing free and unhindered access to the site area of the crash to those charged with attempting to sift through the wreckage on the ground in order to perform duties that naturally follow-on from any airline crash.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah, though the Ukranians dispute the loss of the fighter saying it was lost to a Russian air-to-air missile rather than groundfire.

 

[jon0844]

The way the rebels are acting, and the removed post on the Russian equivalent of Facebook, does pretty much point the finger in their direction.

But that doesn't necessarily mean Putin had any involvement. However, how we determine that will come down to what he says and does now.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, even without using any flight tracking app, the plane could almost certainly have been identified by sight. So someone made a horrible mistake.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Is there another country apart from Russia that could supply such an anti-aircraft missile?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

What do we know? Both Ukraine and the rebels appear to have those missile systems in the area - we know Ukraine does because they told us last week, we think the separatists do as there have been photos published of one crossing back into Russia.
We know the separatists have been shooting down planes and helicopters - but always with low altitude missiles. We know Kiev air traffic control directed the flight and has removed the radar and voice tapes of contact with the plane - just as the separatists have removed black boxes from the plane.
We know there is a great deal of confusion over the flight path - that airspace was closed for obvious reasons,the airline says they checked and the flight path was normal, but having seen the graphic compiling MH17 flight tracks over the last month its clear it was on a very unusual trajectory - under the direction of Kiev air traffic control.

So, both sides could have done it. Both sides are proxy armies of the US and Russia with men and materiel supplied. So its a question of motive and control. I think its perfectly viable that someone shot the thing down by accident or without orders. It's also viable that one side or the other ordered the plane shot down. BTW the "proof" video released by Kiev reuses footage released in a previous "proof" video a month ago. But that Kiev are faking videos doesn't mean they shot the plane down,its just propaganda to gain support for their war.

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[Butts]

Neither side would benefit from shooting down a Civilian Airliner - it was obviously a mistake the perpetrators suspecting it was a Military Flight.

More than likely "the pro-Russians" dropped a bollock

Did anyone read the report by a pro-Russian suggesting the plane had been filled with dead bodies and deliberately shot down :roll:

Their spokesman's credibility reminds of that chap in Iraq (what was his name again?) who during an interview during the second gulf war claimed their were no American Tanks in Baghdad when they could clearly be seen behind him during the transmission.

 

[Johnuk123]

Is there another country apart from Russia that could supply such an anti-aircraft missile?

Loads - at least 25.

 

[ainsworth74]

Both sides are proxy armies of the US and Russia with men and materiel supplied.

Do we have a source for US troops being involved in combat operations?

Loads - at least 25.

Though Occam's razor would suggest that it was most likely either a Ukrainian, former Ukrainian or Russian system.

 

[Johnuk123]

Do we have a source for US troops being involved in combat operations?



Though Occam's razor would suggest that it was most likely either a Ukrainian, former Ukrainian or Russian system.

Almost certainly was.

 

[Monty]

Is there another country apart from Russia that could supply such an anti-aircraft missile?

A number of countries use the SA-11 BUK missile system, but would image the logistics of smuggling such a large vehicle in to the country wouldn't be an easy feet. The vehicle was with a captured Ukrainian army model or supplied by Russia. Their are photos of T-64 tanks seen in rebel hands that are in Russian Army camouflage and markings so I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[fowler9]

Loads - at least 25.

As Monty said though the Missiles are about 5.5 metres long and are used as part of a missile system (Typically carrying 4 such missiles) which is on the back of a large tracked vehicle with radar etc. You couldn't hide this weapon system in the boot of a car.

 

[Johnuk123]

As Monty said though the Missiles are about 5.5 metres long and are used as part of a missile system (Typically carrying 4 such missiles) which is on the back of a large tracked vehicle with radar etc. You couldn't hide this weapon system in the boot of a car.

Agreed, but I don't think whoever fired this missile would have any trouble whatsoever in getting delivery.

There has been no official confirmation of what type of missile it was and now half of the Ukraine has been on a looting spree there won't be much left.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Do we have a source for US troops being involved in combat operations?.

The news? RT and other non-western media channels covered the interrogation of the"Ukrainian" soldier captured by the "separatists" who states repeatedly "I am an American citizen". There are scores of photos and videos of combatants of both sides in brand new uniforms with brand new kit.

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[RochdalePioneers]

The other point is that the conflict in Ukraine, the conflict in Syria, the ISIS lunatics capturing Iraq using equipment given them by the Americans to attack Assad - its all about gas supply. Western Europe is heavily reliant on Russian gas which is state owned. America sees this as a strategic threat, Russia sees this strategic threat as a strategic threat the other way, and so we have proxy wars. And the Arabs sit on the sides having their own battles for supply dominance - their offer to fund 100% of America's war costs removing Assad wasn't out of charity, its so they can build their gas pipeline to Europe which Assad opposes as Russia's ally.

The notion that this is about freedom or democracy is a joke. The west appears to have backed a fascist coup in Ukraine and used it to declare any other votes in Crimea and elsewhere as being unconstitutional and undemocratic. But says nothing when Ukrainian hit mobs chase Russians into a union building in Odessa, set fire to it and shoot anyone who escapes the flames which making Nazi salutes. Again, its all reported in the news if you know where to look, our media just fixates on "Putin bad". And yes he is, but the others are as bad.

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[ainsworth74]

The news? RT and other non-western media channels covered the interrogation of the"Ukrainian" soldier captured by the "separatists" who states repeatedly "I am an American citizen". There are scores of photos and videos of combatants of both sides in brand new uniforms with brand new kit.

So a US civilian then? Not sure what the issue is if some fool wants to get themselves killed fighting in Ukraine. You'll have to forgive me but I thought from your post that you were suggesting that US soldiers, as in active military personnel sent by the US Government, were fighting in Ukraine.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Their spokesman's credibility reminds of that chap in Iraq (what was his name again?) who during an interview during the second gulf war claimed their were no American Tanks in Baghdad when they could clearly be seen behind him during the transmission.

Ah, yes, Comical Ali. He was funny.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah, yes, Comical Ali. He was funny.

I don't think that he saw the "funny side" of matters on the day of his execution by hanging.
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So a US civilian then? Not sure what the issue is if some fool wants to get themselves killed fighting in Ukraine. You'll have to forgive me but I thought from your post that you were suggesting that US soldiers, as in active military personnel sent by the US Government, were fighting in Ukraine.

Any news on reports that someone called John Rambo has been seen in Ukraine recently...

 

[Johnuk123]

I don't think that he saw the "funny side" of matters on the day of his execution by hanging.
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I think you'll find Baghdad Bob is very much alive, he was never hanged.


I doubt even the most die-hard Labour supporter would disagree with this Quote from Bob.

"This stooge, Blair... Fantastic, this man, really. I think the British nation have never been faced with a tragedy like this fellow."
"Blair, you are a war criminal. You should be tried because you told the British public lies."

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think you'll find Baghdad Bob is very much alive, he was never hanged.

I assumed referrence to "Chemical Ali" was being made when "Comical Ali" was mentioned by ralphchadkirk

 

[Johnuk123]

I assumed referrence to "Chemical Ali" was being made when "Comical Ali" was mentioned by ralphchadkirk

Yes different bloke he was.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I assumed referrence to "Chemical Ali" was being made when "Comical Ali" was mentioned by ralphchadkirk

Comical Ali was the name coined for Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf by the UK press (as you point out, a play on the nickname Chemical Ali). The US nickname for him was Baghdad Bob.

Some of his best:

'We have destroyed 2 tanks, fighter planes, 2 helicopters and their shovels - We have driven them back."

"They're not even [within] 100 miles [of Baghdad]. They are not in any place. They hold no place in Iraq. This is an illusion ... they are trying to sell to the others an illusion."

"NO", snapped Mr al-Sahaf, "We have retaken the airport. There are NO Americans there. I will take you there and show you. IN ONE HOUR!"
"You can go and visit those places. Nothing there, nothing at all. There are Iraqi checkpoints. Everything is okay."

About Bush: "the leader of the international criminal gang of *******s."

"When we were making the law, when we were writing the literature and the mathematics the grandfathers of Blair and little Bush were scratching around in caves"