Ukraine-Where will it end?

[Oswyntail]

I think theres more of a direct link between Obama (or rather the forces behind him) and Bush (or rather etc) than between Putin and the USSR that indeed caused the deaths of millions in Ukraine....

I do love the sinister conspiracy approach implicit in your analysis of the USA, while denying the same might be the case in Russia. Of course there is a link between Putin and the USSR, via the KGB and its policies, just as there are somewhat less sinister forces at work in the US. I do not, however, think it is an aim of those forces on either side to obliterate millions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can we start appending some sources for these various statements made by various parties?

In the case of the Second Chechen War, in what was described as an "unfortunate incident", in the village of Katyr Yurt, situated to the west of Grozny in the Russian-controlled sector, the villagers were promised safe passage providing that they all left in a convoy of vehicles which all carried white flags.

That convoy left the village in the method so described, but it was then attacked, together with parts of the village, by Russian military aircraft and helicopters using Grad missiles. However another item was also used by the Russian forces, which was the use of Fuel-Air bombs that already had been banned by that time under the terms of the Geneva Convention.

In the subsequent statement that followed from Russia, claims were made that there were Chechen fighters within the convoy, whilst no apology was made for the use of the banned weapons, of which Russia had a large number at the time of the incident.

 

[kylemore]

I do love the sinister conspiracy approach implicit in your analysis of the USA, while denying the same might be the case in Russia. Of course there is a link between Putin and the USSR, via the KGB and its policies, just as there are somewhat less sinister forces at work in the US. I do not, however, think it is an aim of those forces on either side to obliterate millions.

I don't think I've ever denied Putin and his cronies get up to things, and no doubt sometimes nasty things, behind closed doors (therefore conspire).

I think we basically just have different "World Views". I first became interested in all this after reading extensively about the JFK assassination, In my opinion it must be obvious to any person of reasonable intelligence with an open mind that that was essentially a coup d'etat - and yet officially it is a "lone assassin".

So in my mind the forces at work behind the scenes in the US (forget the window dressing like Obama) are indeed as sinister as you can get!

 

[martinsh]

I first became interested in all this after reading extensively about the JFK assassination, In my opinion it must be obvious to any person of reasonable intelligence with an open mind that that was essentially a coup d'etat - and yet officially it is a "lone assassin".

I think you need to look up the meaning of "coup d'état" ! Unless you are suggesting that Lyndon B Johnson was behind it all ?! hock:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder how the matter of the partnership agreement with the European Union that was signed by Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova will be thought of in Moscow ?

 

[kylemore]

I think you need to look up the meaning of "coup d'état" ! Unless you are suggesting that Lyndon B Johnson was behind it all ?! hock:

A "soft" coup d'etat - no tanks in the streets. A change of direction which "they" felt could only be accomplished in this way. I've no idea what role LBJ played - he was a nasty piece of goods by all accounts - so would have done as he was told no doubt with relish.

Anyway seriously off topic, maybe we should start a political assassinations thread - all very interesting stuff!

 

[Giugiaro]

A "soft" coup d'etat... more like a mafia looking reckoning.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've no idea what role LBJ played - he was a nasty piece of goods by all accounts - so would have done as he was told no doubt with relish.

How in-depth is your knowledge of the character of Lyndon Johnson, as you have made a rather damning statement about him above.

 

[kylemore]

How in-depth is your knowledge of the character of Lyndon Johnson, as you have made a rather damning statement about him above.

Well I didn't know him personally but have done a reasonable amount of reading regarding the assassination including the actions of Johnson - the author Jim Marrs is a good place to start, particularly about the Texas/Dallas aspects as he was a Texas insider.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Today, it was announced that the Ukrainian forces had retaken the strategic settlement of Sloviansk, that had been one of the power bases of the separatists in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[Monty]

The Ukrainian military is starting to get its act together, not that it's really their fault after decades of neglect and lack of funding. Still a heavy price is being paid on both sides, I saw some images on another website of equipment the separatists were using and if the Russian Federation wasn't supplying them with arms I'll eat my hat. Though I still reckon there are Russian soldiers that are doing some of the fighting, they have shot down several Ukrainian helicopters and you don't learn to so that over night..

 

[kylemore]

The Ukrainian military is starting to get its act together, not that it's really their fault after decades of neglect and lack of funding. Still a heavy price is being paid on both sides, I saw some images on another website of equipment the separatists were using and if the Russian Federation wasn't supplying them with arms I'll eat my hat. Though I still reckon there are Russian soldiers that are doing some of the fighting, they have shot down several Ukrainian helicopters and you don't learn to so that over night..

Yes they do seem to be getting better at massacring civilians amongst other things - mind you to be fair to ordinary Ukrainians how many of these "Ukrainians" are actually Ukrainian?

 

[Monty]

Yes they do seem to be getting better at massacring civilians amongst other things - mind you to be fair to ordinary Ukrainians how many of these "Ukrainians" are actually Ukrainian?

I have doubts that the all of these separatists are Ukrainian nationals, most of them appear (well the well organised and equipped ones at least) to be 'volunteers' from Russia itself. I've seen no evidence of the Ukrainian army 'massacring' civilians, not on purpose anyway. War is a dirty business and people seem to forget that and unfortunately innocents are caught in the crossfire and indeed killed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes they do seem to be getting better at massacring civilians amongst other things - mind you to be fair to ordinary Ukrainians how many of these "Ukrainians" are actually Ukrainian?

It is refreshing to see that "Russia Today" has sent its senior political correspondant to hold a resident post on the RailUK website.

 

[kylemore]

It is refreshing to see that "Russia Today" has sent its senior political correspondant to hold a resident post on the RailUK website.

Touche!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The height that the Ukrainian military aircraft had been flying at in the eastern part of their country before being hit by a ground to air missile is rather worryingly said to be a height that the pro-Russian separatists do not have missiles to reach but the Russian military forces on the border area would most certainly have.

I now await with interest, the "Russia Today" version of this matter now being stated in response to this posting on this thread.

 

[kylemore]

I rarely watch RT so have idea what their latest reports are, though I would be more likely to believe them than the BBC.
Lets talk "Goodies" and "Baddies"
People who bomb women and children from the air - are they "Goodies" or "Baddies"?
People who try to shoot down said bombers of women and children - are they "Goodies" or Baddies"?
Yes I'm sure the Chechens got the same treatment, but lets just talk about the E.Ukraine for the moment.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I rarely watch RT so have idea what their latest reports are, though I would be more likely to believe them than the BBC.

I would not expect you to have said anything differently to what you say above, noting the postings that you have already made so far upon the thread.

I equate your comment above to that of the old saying...
"I've never tasted Guinness, but I don't like it"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes I'm sure the Chechens got the same treatment, but lets just talk about the E.Ukraine for the moment.

Most certainly, even though you most conveniently chose not to respond to the posting that I made immediately prior to your last posting, which very much concerns the military implications over the eastern part of Ukraine. In the same way that you made reference to the Chechen people, would you still had the same view on the matter of the downing on the plane had it been a Russian military plane that had been downed by a missile from the Chechen side when it was on the Russian side of the border when it was flying along the border with Chechnya ?

 

[kylemore]

I would not expect you to have said anything differently to what you say above, noting the postings that you have already made so far upon the thread.

I equate your comment above to that of the old saying...
"I've never tasted Guinness, but I don't like it"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Most certainly, even though you most conveniently chose not to respond to the posting that I made immediately prior to your last posting, which very much concerns the military implications over the eastern part of Ukraine. In the same way that you made reference to the Chechen people, would you still had the same view on the matter of the downing on the plane had it been a Russian military plane that had been downed by a missile from the Chechen side when it was on the Russian side of the border when it was flying along the border with Chechnya ?

The thing is I have tasted RT and I find it generally more palatable than the BBC - as far as State Propaganda organisations go. I also like Guinness.

I think you would have to agree that but for my posts and a couple of others the consensus on this thread is that Putin and the Russians are the spawn of the Devil and the "West" is, if not unalloyed sweetness and light, at least generally on the "Right Side". I just like to point out that that might not be the case.
For instance on bodycount alone (Iraq - about 1.4m and counting?) the "West" may in comparison with the Eastern Devils have a case to answer.
Agreed there are no "clean hands" here (Chechnya/Tibet etc), I suppose it just comes down to arguing about whose are "dirtier".

Anyway gotta go now and "de-construct" the BBC one o'clock "news".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Agreed there are no "clean hands" here (Chechnya/Tibet etc), I suppose it just comes down to arguing about whose are "dirtier".

We appear to have found a common point of agreement....

 

[radamfi]

People who bomb women and children from the air - are they "Goodies" or "Baddies"?
People who try to shoot down said bombers of women and children - are they "Goodies" or Baddies"?

As an aside, why do we always talk about 'women and children' in this context? Men are equally helpless against bullets and bombs.

 

[kylemore]

As an aside, why do we always talk about 'women and children' in this context? Men are equally helpless against bullets and bombs.

You're right - the women and children thing is used to heighten the emotions I suppose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We appear to have found a common point of agreement....

Thats good!

Anyway back to sparring..(it's fun)

BBC One O'clock" News - lots of stuff about Israelis being targeted by rockets but absolutely nothing about the civilians killed and injured (including an 82 yr old woman) in their own homes on Russian territory by Ukranian shells.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

BBC One O'clock" News - lots of stuff about Israelis being targeted by rockets but absolutely nothing about the civilians killed and injured (including an 82 yr old woman) in their own homes on Russian territory by Ukranian shells.

Hamas did themselves no favours to be the first transgressors of the Egyptian sponsored truce by launching a barrage of rockets into Israel.

 

[kylemore]

Hamas did themselves no favours to be the first transgressors of the Egyptian sponsored truce by launching a barrage of rockets into Israel.

I don't disagree although it's harder on the Palestinian side to make sure all the "factions" are singing from the same hymnsheet - a disadvantage that may be taken advantage of by players (whoever they may be) who do not wish to see any settlement.

It only takes one two man "faction" to sling a pathetic home made "missile" over the border with the proverbial snowball's chance of hitting anything for the "ISRAEL UNDER ATTACK" headlines on the BBC to appear to sanction any reaction.

But no I don't agree with slinging rockets at civilians - no matter how ineffective - just using the story to point out possible selective reporting that's all.

 

[Oswyntail]

....for the "ISRAEL UNDER ATTACK" headlines on the BBC .... possible selective reporting that's all.

I must be using a different BBC. The reporting I have seen has emphasised the somewhat imbalanced casualty levels, and made Israel look bad.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It only takes one two man "faction" to sling a pathetic home made "missile" over the border with the proverbial snowball's chance of hitting anything for the "ISRAEL UNDER ATTACK" headlines on the BBC to appear to sanction any reaction.

The problem here is that, unlike what you state to be a very small number of "missiles" being launched, there were far more than that launched when the ceasefire was broken by Hamas. Hamas does have far more control over its members than you give them credit for. I note that Hamas has some quite refined weapons, noting that it was one of its drones that was shot down.

Do you think that Israel had foresight to install its Iron Dome defence system, which whilst not perfect by any means, still manages to destroy many of the incoming "missiles"

 

[kylemore]

I must be using a different BBC. The reporting I have seen has emphasised the somewhat imbalanced casualty levels, and made Israel look bad.

Indeed you must because "Israel looking bad" is not the impression I took away!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see "Kiev" has managed to flatten an apartment building in Snezhny killing 4 civilians inside - I wonder if that will be in the BBC one o'clock news today?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I must be using a different BBC. The reporting I have seen has emphasised the somewhat imbalanced casualty levels, and made Israel look bad.

One must beware of the 5th columnist Bolshevik Broadcasting Collective when reporting matters are concerned...

 

[kylemore]

I see "Kiev" has managed to flatten an apartment building in Snezhny killing 4 civilians inside - I wonder if that will be in the BBC one o'clock news today?

Nope, nary a word!

However if an "official" Russian shell or missile was to find it's way over the border, even with no casualties, GUARANTEED it would be at the top of the show!

 

[ainsworth74]

Well if it was a Russian shell/rocket/missile that fell in Ukraine and had been launched by Russian forces I would expect it to feature simply because Russia would have just carried out something that could be perceived as an act of war against Ukraine!

On the other hand Ukrainian forces hitting deliberately or otherwise targets within Ukraine isn't quite as significant an event. The deaths of civilians, especially if they were targetted, are reprehensible but it isn't an act of war by another state.