Ukraine-Where will it end?

[ainsworth74]

Are we sure it's achieved it's goals yet?

 

[jon0844]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of colonial histories, the fact remains that Putin is acting today, in a world context of today's international law, to which he, and his country, have committed themselves. His apologists should answer that, and the fact they seem to have to dig back into earlier centuries even to attempt to do so show they know that they have no real case.

This reminds me of cyclists that bring up bad driving as a defence for their own law breaking.

 

[Oswyntail]

This reminds me of cyclists that bring up bad driving as a defence for their own law breaking.

? - slightly puzzled here

 

[TheKnightWho]

This reminds me of cyclists that bring up bad driving as a defence for their own law breaking.

We've been over this already. Read the last page.

 

[kylemore]

Whilst Russia has had the good fortunate to have seen Crimea now back in its orbit, so to speak, and disruption in Ukraine after the removal of its chosen puppet-head there, it should now have sense to let matters lie having achieved its targets.

Said chosen Puppet now replaced by the US's chosen Puppet!

As for letting matters lie - fat chance - Russia does not completely control the people in the east who are unwilling to see their economy and way of life destroyed by the EU and the IMF and are as much slaves to events as the US.

If Obama, Kerry et al don't like the smell now emanating from the unviable Ukraine they should never have stirred the excrement pail in the first place!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for letting matters lie - fat chance - Russia does not completely control the people in the east .....

Looking at the North Caucasus region as an example, is all now sweetness and light for Russia with regards to the areas of Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, North Ossetia and Kabardino-Balkaria or do they still feel the need to exert control over those areas ?

 

[kylemore]

Looking at the North Caucasus region as an example, is all now sweetness and light for Russia with regards to the areas of Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, North Ossetia and Kabardino-Balkaria or do they still feel the need to exert control over those areas ?

Yes if Russia studiously applied the same principles that they say should apply to the ethnic Russians in Crimea and other areas in the present Ukraine then things would be different. But then the other major powers in the world would have to live by the same rules.

The Russians under Putin survey a world where the World bully can kill millions and make the lives of entire sovereign nations a living hell, Iraq, Libya ....and Syria if they hadn't been stopped, hopefully for good. Playing clean when you're opponent is utterly devoid of any principles whatsoever is not advisable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes if Russia studiously applied the same principles that they say should apply to the ethnic Russians in Crimea and other areas in the present Ukraine then things would be different. But then the other major powers in the world would have to live by the same rules.

Perhaps the Tibetan matter would be one where China would prefer not to receive an upgrading of debate.

Maybe Jamaica will begin sabre-rattling on behalf of its residents who they feel are poorly received in Britain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm still to be convinced that Russia is the "bad guy" in any of this. I never picked them as an enemy, some western leaders did.

Russia now seem very strident in its condemnation of the Ukrainian action against those of the pro-Russian entities in Eastern Ukraine, but when the forces of the now removed Russian puppet leader were in power in Kiev, I have found it extremely difficult to trace any Russian condemnation of the type of action that was taken against the populace of Kiev by those same forces.

I am sure that we have had a "goose and gander" comparison scenario visited upon this thread somewhere.

 

[DownSouth]

Maybe Jamaica will begin sabre-rattling on behalf of its residents who they feel are poorly received in Britain.

Not quite due to the poor treatment of their citizens in European countries, but there is the upcoming case to be brought by the CARICOM nations at the ICJ where the UK and six other European nations will have to defend their record of the transatlantic slave trade era and the decolonising before they had fixed all the problems their atrocities caused.

 

[yorkie]

This reminds me of cyclists that bring up bad driving as a defence for their own law breaking.

This reminds me of motorists who bring up bad cycling as a defence for their own law breaking.:roll:

But, back on topic, I see pro-Russians have detained international monitors
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27162941

On Friday, Ukraine's interior ministry said armed separatists had seized seven representatives from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), as well as five Ukrainian army personnel and a bus driver.
The German foreign ministry confirmed 13 people had been detained....

I wonder what they don't want them to observe...?

 

[Jonny]

On the other hand, we have Victoria Nuland, a White House insider, claiming (as a US government spokesperson) to have "invested" five billion dollars in Ukraine (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=446 - starts at 7:26 and the key bit is around the 7:42 mark).

 

[TheKnightWho]

On the other hand, we have Victoria Nuland, a White House insider, claiming (as a US government spokesperson) to have "invested" five billion dollars in Ukraine (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=446 - starts at 7:26 and the key bit is around the 7:42 mark).

Clearly, then, the EU is the main player here as some have concluded :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I cannot believe that this thread has suddenly gone very quiet. Has there not enough occurred over the two or three weeks that the usual forum members with strong views on current matters do not feel the need to make their views known.

 

[kylemore]

I cannot believe that this thread has suddenly gone very quiet. Has there not enough occurred over the two or three weeks that the usual forum members with strong views on current matters do not feel the need to make their views known.

I agree Paul, momentous events whatever your view of them.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I cannot believe that this thread has suddenly gone very quiet. Has there not enough occurred over the two or three weeks that the usual forum members with strong views on current matters do not feel the need to make their views known.

Apologies - life has been somewhat hectic and I forgot this thread existed

 

[fowler9]

I think its just one of those things where a thread burns itself out when people get tired of arguing over who is right and who is wrong. Its obviously still pretty complicated out there and I follow the situation in the news.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think its just one of those things where a thread burns itself out when people get tired of arguing over who is right and who is wrong. Its obviously still pretty complicated out there and I follow the situation in the news.

I think that what originally occurred in the area of Crimea was the main focus of this thread originally with Russia taking back an area that was handed over to Ukraine by a previous Russian government, but what is now taking place in both the eastern and south-western areas of Ukraine including the unofficial referendum is a matter that is deserving of attention in this thread which is titled "Ukraine...Where will it end".

 

[fowler9]

I think that what originally occurred in the area of Crimea was the main focus of this thread originally with Russia taking back an area that was handed over to Ukraine by a previous Russian government, but what is now taking place in both the eastern and south-western areas of Ukraine including the unofficial referendum is a matter that is deserving of attention in this thread which is titled "Ukraine...Where will it end".

Absolutely mate, but what more is to be said. The people who think Russia is right think they are right, the people who think Russia is wrong think they are wrong. The number of people who think Russia taking over Crimea is right but having a go at the rest of Eastern Ukraine is wrong will be tiny and vice versa.

I think I said myself about "Ukraine... Where will it end" a lot further west in the not too distant future. A rubbish joke about a map of Ukraine but still.

Just to breath some life in to the debate a few mates seemed to get really excited that Russia was empire building when a couple of Typhoons were scrambled to intercept Russian planes in the far north. They seemed disappointed when I told them this had been going on for decades none stop. Same with the right wing press printing pictures of HMS Dragon right next to the Admiral Kuznetsov in the Channel. If it was kicking off they wouldn't be right next to each other. It would kind of ruin the stealth advantage of Dragon.

 

[Johnuk123]

Since I live in this area, I can tell you for sure it won`t end, until Russia will get more, probably the whole Ukraine and mostly the Republic of Moldova
Russia dreams that it will be an empire as in the past and a conquest of Black Sea seaside is mandatory for the easy control of petroleum and gas

Where do you live ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Since I live in this area, I can tell you for sure it won't end, until Russia will get more, probably the whole Ukraine and mostly the Republic of Moldova
Russia dreams that it will be an empire as in the past and a conquest of Black Sea seaside is mandatory for the easy control of petroleum and gas

No wonder he got so offended when Prince Charles called him Hitler-like then. Probably hit a bit too close to home...

 

[ainsworth74]

No wonder he got so offended when Prince Charles called him Hitler-like then. Probably hit a bit too close to home...

I was flicking through the comments on BBC News earlier after reading the article about this and one of them tickled me:

If we're a 'small insignificant island' why does Putin care so much?

Thought it was quite amusing

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it known how long the financial sanctions made upon certain high-ranked members of the Russian state will be expected to be so applied ?

 

[kylemore]

As he edges closer to the Throne Charlie's earning Brownie Points with the Establishment by parroting US/UK anti Russian rhetoric. Perhaps he should have disengaged mouth and engaged brain for a minute to reflect on the Millions of Russians who perished fighting the real thing.
If anything, the step by step, hostile inching closer and closer to Russia by US/NATO more accurately mimics events before WWII than Russia's present actions. And eventually Russia must either surrender or fight.
Of course if you think the "West" and all it's works are just so self evidently wonderful then of course this will be incomprehensible nonsense, it really just depends on how you view the World.
God knows Putin's Russia ain't perfect - a dirty little war in Chechnya and bumped off journalists - but then when Britain was fighting Hitler there was plenty of things going on in the British Empire that wouldn't bear much looking at now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I live in Romania, Republic of Moldova, which is one of the direct neighbors of Ukraine, was a former region of Romania, so the conflict is quite near

Noting what Putin said about the speakers of the Russian language, would you say that figures quoted for Moldova and the speakers of languages there being 76% Romanian and 11% Russian are basically correct ?

 

[reb0118]

Republic of Moldova

Would this be similar to "Bessarabia" that we know from our history books.

Off the top of my head - was Bessarabia the territorial price that the Russian Empire took for helping the emerging Roumanian kingdom gain some form of autonomy from the Ottoman Turks? It seems to me that the Russians will not be happy until they regain suzerainty over all the former Imperial possessions. In Europe this included Finland, the Baltic States, & a large part of Poland not to mention White Russia, the Ukraine, & Bessarabia.

I have only been to Moldova once - to watch Scotland play football - it was a worthwhile experience despite the score. I hope to visit the other side of the Prut soon i.e. Moldavia esp. Iasi which I believe was the capital of Roumania before București.

Is there any tension in the ethnically diverse region of Bugeac, the coastal region of Moldova which was transferred to Ukraine by the Soviets,?

 

[TheKnightWho]

The firm favourite, pro-European Petro Poroshenko, has just been elected president.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Double post, but I just stumbled upon this extremely interesting article. Especially note the bit about Putin's Eurasian project consisting of two parts: bringing Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan into Russian orbit, and the systematic destruction of the EU through supporting Europe's far-right parties to ensure Russian energy dependence.

Suddenly Putin's tantrum over Ukraine makes a lot more sense from both perspectives.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117692/fascism-returns-ukraine

Suddenly the rather jarring support for Putin by numerous far-right groups across Europe (normally so distrustful of Russians from the Cold War) ties into all this perfectly. No wonder UKIP have been trumpeting their admiration of him - they have a common goal.

The firm favourite, pro-European Petro Poroshenko, has just been elected president.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Double post, but I just stumbled upon this extremely interesting article. Especially note the bit about Putin's Eurasian project consisting of two parts: bringing Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan into Russian orbit, and the systematic destruction of the EU through supporting Europe's far-right parties to ensure Russian energy dependence.

Suddenly Putin's tantrum over Ukraine makes a lot more sense from both perspectives.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117692/fascism-returns-ukraine

Suddenly the rather jarring support for Putin by numerous far-right groups across Europe (normally so distrustful of Russians from the Cold War) ties into all this perfectly. No wonder UKIP have been trumpeting their admiration of him - they have a common goal.

Just as soon as these vaulting ambitions were formulated, the proud Eurasian posture crashed upon the reality of Ukrainian society. In late 2013 and early 2014, the attempt to bring Ukraine within the Eurasian orbit produced exactly the opposite result. First, Russia publicly dissuaded Yanukovych from signing a trade agreement with the European Union. This brought protests in Ukraine. Then Russia offered a large loan and favorable gas prices in exchange for crushing the protests. Harsh Russian-style laws introduced in January transformed the protests into a mass movement. Millions of people who had joined in peaceful protests were suddenly transformed into criminals and some of them began to defend themselves against the police. Finally, Russia made clear that Yanukovych had to rid Kiev of protesters in order to receive its money. Then followed the sniper massacre of February, which gave the revolutionaries a clear moral and political victory, and forced Yanukovych to flee to Russia. The attempt to create a pro-Russian dictatorship in Ukraine led to the opposite outcome: the return of parliamentary rule, the announcement of presidential elections, and a foreign policy oriented toward Europe.

This made the revolution in Ukraine not only a disaster for Russian foreign policy, but a challenge to Putin’s regime at home. The weakness of Putin’s policy is that it cannot account for the actions of free human beings who choose to organize themselves in response to unpredictable historical events. Russian propaganda presented the Ukrainian revolution as a Nazi coup and blamed Europeans for supporting these supposed Nazis. This version, although ridiculous, was much more comfortable in Putin’s mental world, since it removed from view the debacle of his own foreign policy in Ukraine and replaced spontaneous action by Ukrainians with foreign conspiracies.

The creeping Russian invasions of Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are a frontal challenge to the European security order as well as to the Ukrainian state. They have nothing to do with popular will or the protection of rights: Even Crimean opinion polls never registered a majority preference for joining Russia, and speakers of Russian in Ukraine are far freer than speakers of Russian in Russia. The Russian annexation was carried out, tellingly, with the help of Putin’s extremist allies throughout Europe. No reputable organization would observe the electoral farce by which 97 percent of Crimeans supposedly voted to be annexed. But a ragtag delegation of right-wing populists, neo-Nazis, and members of the German party Die Linke (the Left Party) were happy to come and endorse the results. The Germans who traveled to Crimea included four members of Die Linke and one member of Neue Rechte (New Right). This is a telling combination.

...

Even Nigel Farage, the leader of the U.K. Independence Party, recently shared Putin’s propaganda on Ukraine with millions of British viewers in a televised debate, claiming absurdly that the European Union has “blood on its hands” in Ukraine.

The fact that these supposed Nazis just lost spectacularly in the recent elections shows that statement in bold to be absolutely true.

 

[kylemore]

Who's coming up with the fantasty conspiracies now!

Russia's fighting for her survival, if it wasn't for her alliance with China she would be in deep trouble, gas or no gas.

If NATO/US/EU had more or less lived up to their agreement to leave Russia's sphere of influence alone then none of this would be happening.

Of course to some people Russia (or China for that matter) is not allowed to have a "sphere of influence" only the USA (and it's lackeys/instruments - Uk/Nato) is allowed to have a "sphere of influence".

If the events in Ukraine were happening in Mexico or Canada then the US would quite legitimately be worried and entitled to take action to protect her interests but Russia is not so entitled!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Who's coming up with the fantasty conspiracies now!

Russia's fighting for her survival, if it wasn't for her alliance with China she would be in deep trouble, gas or no gas.

If NATO/US/EU had more or less lived up to their agreement to leave Russia's sphere of influence alone then none of this would be happening.

Of course to some people Russia (or China for that matter) is not allowed to have a "sphere of influence" only the USA (and it's lackeys/instruments - Uk/Nato) is allowed to have a "sphere of influence".

If the events in Ukraine were happening in Mexico or Canada then the US would quite legitimately be worried and entitled to take action to protect her interests but Russia is not so entitled!

And that is exactly what that article is criticising! You cannot ignore the fact that Ukraine is a large country that can make its own decisions. Russia has pubically acknowledged its interference in Ukrainian affairs, its effective bribery of the president and their influence on the new laws that the old president imposed. The Ukrainian people opposed tighter bonds with Russia and actively supported tighter relations with the EU even before all of this kicked off, and it's incredibly patronising and disrespectful to ignore that just because in your mind Ukraine should be associated with Russia and not Europe. And all that rubbish about neo-Nazi groups artificially generating support for Europe goes out the window when it turns out they lost catastrophically in the latest election. Quite simply, you're replacing the agency of a people with conspiracy theories, and it's a massive, massive mistake.

You say it's in Russia's interests to act the way it does, but of course it is! It's also in everyone else's interests to oppose it if it's going to behave in an imperialistic and overbearing manner against a people that quite frankly don't want it. Ukraine is not owned by Russia, and everyone who is assuming that it is is just finding a way to absolve Russia of responsibility for its actions.

And really? Fighting for survival? Give me a break... Have you got anything to actually refute these claims, or are you just going to say they're rubbish because it suits your point of view?

 

[kylemore]

And that is exactly what that article is criticising! You cannot ignore the fact that Ukraine is a large country that can make its own decisions. Russia has pubically acknowledged its interference in Ukrainian affairs, its effective bribery of the president and their influence on the new laws that the old president imposed. The Ukrainian people opposed tighter bonds with Russia and actively supported tighter relations with the EU even before all of this kicked off, and it's incredibly patronising and disrespectful to ignore that just because in your mind Ukraine should be associated with Russia and not Europe. And all that rubbish about neo-Nazi groups artificially generating support for Europe goes out the window when it turns out they lost catastrophically in the latest election. Quite simply, you're replacing the agency of a people with conspiracy theories, and it's a massive, massive mistake.

You say it's in Russia's interests to act the way it does, but of course it is! It's also in everyone else's interests to oppose it if it's going to behave in an imperialistic and overbearing manner against a people that quite frankly don't want it. Ukraine is not owned by Russia, and everyone who is assuming that it is is just finding a way to absolve Russia of responsibility for its actions.

And really? Fighting for survival? Give me a break... Have you got anything to actually refute these claims, or are you just going to say they're rubbish because it suits your point of view?

One of the things that annoys me is that Russia is criticised for doing only a tiny fraction of what the ruling elites behind the USA do, that's double standards.
I'm more interested in the MILLIONS who have been killed since 2001 and in Entire Countries turned into HELLHOLES by the USA elite's continuing struggles to maintain World hegenomy. Anything that stands against that at least has a claim to be on the "Light" side even if they are not completely "clean" themselves.

As for Russia's fight for survival the turnround since the Drunk Yeltsin's time is amazing, almost miraculous. It's ironic that Putin was his favoured successor and regarded as a safe pair of hands. "THEY" thought they had Russia sorted out - a source of dirt cheap commodities, it's people demoralised, it's women a resource for the western sex industry amongst other indignities. And now they have recovered to the state where they have a bit of pride in themselves and can stand up to the force of Evil in the world - good luck to them!

We have different World Views The KnightWho, I'm never going to change yours nor you mine but I enjoy the to and fro! I hope you do too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And that is exactly what that article is criticising! You cannot ignore the fact that Ukraine is a large country that can make its own decisions. Russia has pubically acknowledged its interference in Ukrainian affairs, its effective bribery of the president and their influence on the new laws that the old president imposed. The Ukrainian people opposed tighter bonds with Russia and actively supported tighter relations with the EU even before all of this kicked off, and it's incredibly patronising and disrespectful to ignore that just because in your mind Ukraine should be associated with Russia and not Europe. And all that rubbish about neo-Nazi groups artificially generating support for Europe goes out the window when it turns out they lost catastrophically in the latest election. Quite simply, you're replacing the agency of a people with conspiracy theories, and it's a massive, massive mistake.

You say it's in Russia's interests to act the way it does, but of course it is! It's also in everyone else's interests to oppose it if it's going to behave in an imperialistic and overbearing manner against a people that quite frankly don't want it. Ukraine is not owned by Russia, and everyone who is assuming that it is is just finding a way to absolve Russia of responsibility for its actions.

And really? Fighting for survival? Give me a break... Have you got anything to actually refute these claims, or are you just going to say they're rubbish because it suits your point of view?

One of the things that annoys me is that Russia is criticised for doing only a tiny fraction of what the ruling elites behind the USA do, that's double standards.
I'm more interested in the MILLIONS who have been killed since 2001 and in Entire Countries turned into HELLHOLES by the USA elite's continuing struggles to maintain World hegenomy. Anything that stands against that at least has a claim to be on the "Light" side even if they are not completely "clean" themselves.

As for Russia's fight for survival the turnround since the Drunk Yeltsin's time is amazing, almost miraculous. It's ironic that Putin was his favoured successor and regarded as a safe pair of hands. "THEY" thought they had Russia sorted out - a source of dirt cheap commodities, it's people demoralised, it's women a resource for the western sex industry amongst other indignities. And now they have recovered to the state where they have a bit of pride in themselves and can stand up to the force of Evil in the world - good luck to them!

We have different World Views The KnightWho, I'm never going to change yours nor you mine but I enjoy the to and fro! I hope you do too.

 

[TheKnightWho]

One of the things that annoys me is that Russia is criticised for doing only a tiny fraction of what the ruling elites behind the USA do, that's double standards.
I'm more interested in the MILLIONS who have been killed since 2001 and in Entire Countries turned into HELLHOLES by the USA elite's continuing struggles to maintain World hegenomy. Anything that stands against that at least has a claim to be on the "Light" side even if they are not completely "clean" themselves.

As for Russia's fight for survival the turnround since the Drunk Yeltsin's time is amazing, almost miraculous. It's ironic that Putin was his favoured successor and regarded as a safe pair of hands. "THEY" thought they had Russia sorted out - a source of dirt cheap commodities, it's people demoralised, it's women a resource for the western sex industry amongst other indignities. And now they have recovered to the state where they have a bit of pride in themselves and can stand up to the force of Evil in the world - good luck to them!

We have different World Views The KnightWho, I'm never going to change yours nor you mine but I enjoy the to and fro! I hope you do too.

I don't actually disagree on any of this. It's massively hypocritical of the USA to criticise Russia in the way they're doing, and I've no doubt that if Mexico were behaving in a similar way the US would react similarly. However, from a democratic perspective it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that Ukraine quite simply wants to be associated with and have tighter links with Europe. Even if you disagree with the idea of the EU, that's an indisputable fact.

The fact that Russia and far-right/left groups throughout Europe have been trying to turn this into a conspiracy with the EU and USA at the centre of it speaks volumes about their motivations. They couldn't give a toss about "protecting" Ukraine, as they're far more interested in breaking-up the EU superstate, albeit for different reasons. Russia wants Europe to be energy dependent on it, and it's much easier to prevent their energy independence if they aren't a homogeneous bloc, but are a group of squabbling states. Extreme groups just want to break it up for a variety of reasons, but can seen an ally in Putin.

Yeah, it is good chatting I don't think we really disagree all that much, though, but are just look at it from different perspectives.