Ukraine-Where will it end?

[kylemore]

Sure but that depends if the Russians are over their hangovers before midday

Well I'm sure after a few Pink Gins on the RN side they'd all be the best of pals and be wondering what all the fuss was about

And I'm sure the last thing they would want to do is take on the succesors of the the men who braved the North Cape to bring them vital supplies 70 years ago.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/02/us-ukraine-crisis-breedlove-idUSBREA310PP20140402

Russia has massed all the forces it needs on Ukraine's border if it were to decide to carry out an "incursion" into the country, and it could achieve its objective in three to five days, NATO's top military commander said on Wednesday.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABREA360TI20140407

KIEV/DONETSK, Ukraine (Reuters) - Pro-Moscow protesters occupying a government building in eastern Ukraine declared the creation of a separatist republic on Monday, in a move Kiev described as part of a plan to justify a Russian invasion to dismember the country.

The new Ukrainian leader is blaming the uprisings in Eastern Ukraine on Russian interference which is propaganda, he's trying to push NATO into a conflict on his behalf.
NATO won't get involved in a shooting war in Ukraine.

 

[TheKnightWho]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/02/us-ukraine-crisis-breedlove-idUSBREA310PP20140402

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABREA360TI20140407

The new Ukrainian leader is blaming the uprisings in Eastern Ukraine on Russian interference which is propaganda, he's trying to push NATO into a conflict on his behalf.
NATO won't get involved in a shooting war in Ukraine.

So, anything which supports your opinion is truth, and anything which doesn't is propaganda.

That doesn't sound like a biased opinion at all, does it.

 

[Aictos]

Putin says he's concerned about the rights of the Russian Speaking Ukrainians and has deliberately encouraged the illegal action in the Crimea BUT he won't allow Chechens to have full independence not to mention the fact that Abkhazia, Adjara and South Ossetia are part of Georgia but rather then then Russia staying out of a internal conflict OR acting as peacekeepers decided to go in and take on Georgia.

Personally what should have happened is Russia should have sent in a peacekeeping force as part of a larger UN initiative in the Crimea.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any further news with regards to exactly what occurred when the Ukranian Naval Officer was shot dead by a Russian soldier ?

 

[reb0118]

Sure but that depends if the Russians are over their hangovers before midday

They will be if an independent Scotland can supply them, via a new Arctic Convoy, with sufficient quantities of Irn Bru.

 

[yorkie]

Anyone here still supporting the Russians? If so, are you aware of how they treat reporters?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27030365

Ukraine crisis: Pro-Russian mob attack in Donetsk

The confrontation in eastern Ukraine worsened on Monday with more official buildings seized by pro-Russian activists.

Russia and the West are accusing each other of fomenting the crisis which has now spread to at least ten cities.

Ukraine says it has asked for UN peacekeepers, but Russia holds a veto on their deployment.

Gabriel Gatehouse reports from Donetsk in eastern Ukraine for BBC Newsnight, where journalists - including a BBC team - have been targeted.

Does anyone have a list of Russian produce, so I can boycott them?

And no, I am not on the side of the Nazis, but the logic that if you're pro-EU you must be pro-Nazi is an absurd logic. The loony left and the far right are both utterly despicable.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone have a list of Russian produce, so I can boycott them?

Unless you're in the market for weapons, gas or oil you're not going to have much to boycott

 

[fowler9]

Unless you're in the market for weapons, gas or oil you're not going to have much to boycott

Gas being a pretty big one. Turn your central heating off perhaps? And lay off the Beluga caviar.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since that matter of those people in pro-Russian "soviet" in Donetsk in the eastern part of Ukraine saying that they will not observe the terms of the agreement that was reached, it will be now interesting to see how Russia will now react to this state of affairs, as the ball is well and truly in their court.

 

[reb0118]

Remember, Uncle Joe was our ally in WWII in the fight against fascism. The Russians can do no wrong.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Remember, Uncle Joe was our ally in WWII in the fight against fascism. The Russians can do no wrong.

Kennedy did not appear to think so at the time of the Cuba missile crisis.

 

[reb0118]

Kennedy did not appear to think so......

The Kennedy family was no friend to Britain - too pro Irish Republicanism! Anyway the Americans were no real friends to us after the war by forcing Britain (and other European nations) into giving up their colonies too hastily. Decolonisation should have happened but much more slowly than it did. It would have been fairer all round if a strong democratic framework was in place as independence approached each colony in turn.

All that the Americans gained was squalid little wars in far off lands to fight the spread of communism that they themselves vicariously propagated by their earlier policies.

p.s I actually like the Americans as people - it is just some of their policy decisions that lack understanding.

 

[St Rollox]

Maybe not invading other countries and making them colonies in the first place might have been a good idea.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Maybe not invading other countries and making them colonies in the first place might have been a good idea.

I'm not sure there's much point ascribing moral agency to a country. British people in the 1950s had to deal with the geopolitical situation they were given. You can't blame them for it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Kennedy family was no friend to Britain - too pro Irish Republicanism! Anyway the Americans were no real friends to us after the war by forcing Britain (and other European nations) into giving up their colonies too hastily. Decolonisation should have happened but much more slowly than it did. It would have been fairer all round if a strong democratic framework was in place as independence approached each colony in turn.

All that the Americans gained was squalid little wars in far off lands to fight the spread of communism that they themselves vicariously propagated by their earlier policies.

p.s I actually like the Americans as people - it is just some of their policy decisions that lack understanding.

I was not making reference to the American view of matters regarding Britain at the time of the Cuban missile crisis, as it was not British ships but those of the Russian flag that were heading towards Cuba with missiles loaded aboard the vessels.

 

[St Rollox]

I'm not sure there's much point ascribing moral agency to a country. British people in the 1950s had to deal with the geopolitical situation they were given. You can't blame them for it.

European countries in general don't come out the last few centuries with a great deal of honour.

 

[TheKnightWho]

European countries in general don't come out the last few centuries with a great deal of honour.

Read my post again. You're still doing it.

It makes no sense to consider a country a homogeneous moral entity over hundreds of years.

 

[St Rollox]

Read my post again. You're still doing it.

It makes no sense to consider a country a homogeneous moral entity over hundreds of years.

Read the "Niall Ferguson" stuff a hundred times over.
Personally i think it's wrong.
Nation states don't have morals nor does a warship.
But people or should i say leaders, kings and queens do or don't.
For about the first 400 years the Royal Navy was a state run pirate outfit.
It's high level allowed theft by any standards.
See European empires for details.

For western Europeans to tick off Putin is laughable.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
For western Europeans to tick off Putin is laughable.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of colonial histories, the fact remains that Putin is acting today, in a world context of today's international law, to which he, and his country, have committed themselves. His apologists should answer that, and the fact they seem to have to dig back into earlier centuries even to attempt to do so show they know that they have no real case.

 

[St Rollox]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of colonial histories, the fact remains that Putin is acting today, in a world context of today's international law, to which he, and his country, have committed themselves. His apologists should answer that, and the fact they seem to have to dig back into earlier centuries even to attempt to do so show they know that they have no real case.

I'm still to be convinced that Russia is the "bad guy" in any of this.
I never picked them as an enemy, some western leaders did.

Under international law Bush and Blair might be on trial going by the West's own code for invading Iraq etc.

Good for the gander and all that.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Read the "Niall Ferguson" stuff a hundred times over.
Personally i think it's wrong.
Nation states don't have morals nor does a warship.
But people or should i say leaders, kings and queens do or don't.
For about the first 400 years the Royal Navy was a state run pirate outfit.
It's high level allowed theft by any standards.
See European empires for details.

For western Europeans to tick off Putin is laughable.

You're completely missing my point. No-one from Britain was alive when the Royal Navy was a "pirate outfit", and therefore it is completely irrelevant that it was when discussing the moral behaviour of its members today. I'm not ignorant of colonial history, but I'm calling you out on you using it as an excuse to call people hypocrites today.

You can't be responsible for something you didn't do. Like I've said (several times), you can't hold the institution responsible - only its members. If they didn't do something themselves, they can't be held to blame.

 

[Oswyntail]

I'm still to be convinced that Russia is the "bad guy" in any of this.
I never picked them as an enemy, some western leaders did.

Under international law Bush and Blair might be on trial going by the West's own code for invading Iraq etc.

Good for the gander and all that.

I totally agree that Bush and Blair have a case to answer. But that does not mean Putin does not. The rule of law surely does not mean that, just because someone, somewhere has committed murder, then I can.
Putin signed a treaty stating that Russia, among others, would respect and protect the border integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. This he has broken. This is why he is the "bad guy".

 

[TheKnightWho]

I totally agree that Bush and Blair have a case to answer. But that does not mean Putin does not. The rule of law surely does not mean that, just because someone, somewhere has committed murder, then I can.
Putin signed a treaty stating that Russia, among others, would respect and protect the border integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. This he has broken. This is why he is the "bad guy".

That's aside from the fact that picking a 'bad guy' and a 'good guy' in conflicts is usually reductive and naïve. If people break international law then of course there'll be a reaction to that from many quarters (either in support or favour), but this isn't a football match where we always support one side or the other.

 

[Manchester77]

That's aside from the fact that picking a 'bad guy' and a 'good guy' in conflicts is usually reductive and naïve. If people break international law then of course there'll be a reaction to that from many quarters (either in support or favour), but this isn't a football match where we always support one side or the other.

Quite both sides aren't exactly glowing right now what with the west giving the new Ukrainian government billions of dollars even though most of its cabinet are members of new-nazi and fascist groups. On the other hand you Russia who have violated Ukraine's sovereignty in entering the Crimean peninsular.

 

[reb0118]

How about a re-jig of the borders in this area? Return Western Galicia to Poland, Sub Carpathian Ruthenia could become an autonomous protectorate of both the Czech Republic & Slovakia, Die Bukowina & Moldova to be incorporated into a Greater Romania.

A plebiscite should be held in what is left of Ukraine to decide whether the remaining population wish to join the Russian Fereration or form their own independent country.

Whilst we are at it Königsburg (Kaliningrad Oblast) should be governed as a free trade entrepôt directly by the European Union and Russia should be forced to cede Vyborg, the Karelian Isthmus, & the Petsamo region back to Finland.

(NB I have consumed a few Aspall Premier Cru ciders at 7% ABV )

Russia should then be told that Eastern Europe if off limits from now on in but that to compensate it can have a free hand in Central Asia - Russia's role in weltpolitik is the protection of Europe from the onslaught of the Asiatic Hordes!

Remember throughout history in this area borders & boundaries have come and gone, in general this did not affect too much the actual people living on the ground so to speak as all that really happened was a change of monarch, a new governor, and a new flag. It was only with the rise of nationalism in the last century (esp. in conjunction with fascism & communism) that the great genocides of Eastern Europe as well as the major population shifts have taken place. It appears that these upheavals have not yet fully resolved themselves in Ukraine - let us hope and pray that these current unrests are resolved soon and that, God forbid, they do not escalate across any neighbouring borders.

I can recommend the following books:-

Borderland by Ann Reid; God's Playground by Norman Davies, Historical Atlas of Central Europe - Magosci.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How about a re-jig of the borders in this area? Return Western Galicia to Poland.

For personal reasons, I am bound to be in support of that part of your posting.

 

[martinsh]

How about a re-jig of the borders in this area? Return Western Galicia to Poland, Sub Carpathian Ruthenia could become an autonomous protectorate of both the Czech Republic & Slovakia, Die Bukowina & Moldova to be incorporated into a Greater Romania.

A plebiscite should be held in what is left of Ukraine to decide whether the remaining population wish to join the Russian Fereration or form their own independent country.

Whilst we are at it Königsburg (Kaliningrad Oblast) should be governed as a free trade entrepôt directly by the European Union and Russia should be forced to cede Vyborg, the Karelian Isthmus, & the Petsamo region back to Finland.
.

While you're about it, we Latvians would like Abrene (Pytalavo) back as well !

 

[kylemore]

Talking of Koenigsberg I think we should re-establish both West and East Prussia and finally settle the "Polish Corridor" Question!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst Russia has had the good fortunate to have seen Crimea now back in its orbit, so to speak, and disruption in Ukraine after the removal of its chosen puppet-head there, it should now have sense to let matters lie having achieved its targets.