Ukraine-Where will it end?

[transmanche]

I'll tell you the source it was Sky news Jeff Randall who is normally very reliable.

How many other 'facts' have you posted here without verifying if they're nonsense or not? As I said, it took literally seconds to disprove.

 

[Johnuk123]

That well known unbiased news source

No broadcaster in this country can be relied on for totally unbiased and accurate reporting but Sky is as good as it gets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many other 'facts' have you posted here without verifying if they're nonsense or not? As I said, it took literally seconds to disprove.

You're like a dog with a bone you are aren't you.

 

[transmanche]

You're like a dog with a bone you are aren't you.

A bone of truth perhaps...

 

[TheKnightWho]

No broadcaster in this country can be relied on for totally unbiased and accurate reporting but Sky is as good as it gets.

Yeah - Rupert Murdoch's just completely impartial isn't he?

Dear god. No wonder you have such extreme views if you think Sky News is impartial.

 

[fowler9]

Yeah - Rupert Murdoch's just completely impartial isn't he?

Dear god. No wonder you have such extreme views if you think Sky News is impartial.

If Sky is as good as it gets I may as well get me coat and go home. Ha ha. Just my personal opinion of course.

 

[meridian2]

Yeah - Rupert Murdoch's just completely impartial isn't he?

Dear god. No wonder you have such extreme views if you think Sky News is impartial.

And you judge him based on what; the wonderfully impartial KnightWhoTV, whose coverage is second to none.
:roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

If Sky is as good as it gets I may as well get me coat and go home. Ha ha. Just my personal opinion of course.

This reminds me quite a lot of the people in America who genuinely believe Fox News is 'fair and balanced'. Funnily enough, another Murdoch machination - sorry, creation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And you judge him based on what; the wonderfully impartial KnightWhoTV, whose coverage is second to none.
:roll:

Multiple news sources and not taking everything I see on one of them at face value? I'm not saying everything I say is correct, but there are degrees of reliability.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I have to laugh at the reaction to the Crimea referendum. There is a coup in Kiev which installs fascists into office (literally, Channel 4 news covered the policies of Svoboda), Crimea's elected parliament declares a referendum and invites all international observes to oversee it.

The west declares the Vote invalid, refuses to come and see (because it's invalid), and it's invalid because unlike the unconstitutional coup it's unconstitutional. Sure, Putin isn't democratic either. But this is just silly....

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

 

[meridian2]

Multiple news sources and not taking everything I see on one of them at face value? I'm not saying everything I say is correct, but there are degrees of reliability.

Reliability and the media? That's an oxymoron, surely?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Reliability and the media? That's an oxymoron, surely?

Where do you propose getting information from, then?

Like I said - I'm not saying that everything I say is absolutely correct, but there is such a thing as looking at several different points of view and coming to a conclusion, instead of just believing what the first one I see says.

 

[fowler9]

And you judge him based on what; the wonderfully impartial KnightWhoTV, whose coverage is second to none.
:roll:

Do you really find the Murdoch press to be impartial? If the answer is yes I'll say no more.

 

[kylemore]

I note you have totally ignored my request for evidence. You have your own fairy tales, which I do not share.

OK so where is the evidence that the US or it's proxies have never ever in the history of the world interfered in the internal affairs of other states?

There are plenty of reports of outside influence in Ukraine, of US embassy payment of "expenses" to "opposition" leaders, of the involvement of US controlled NGOs of US private "security" operatives in Eastern Ukraine etc. Frankly I have neither the time nor the inclination to research and list sources - but even if I did list a source from say RT or John Pilger for instance your response would probably be that they are biased. So it's really a futile exercise.

Oh and this just in - the US Govt has just broken US law (1961 Foreign Assistance Act) which prohibits it from financially aiding a country whose Head of State has been "deposed by military coup or decree" by assisting a country (Ukraine) whose Head of State has just been deposed by "military coup or decree"!

 

[Oswyntail]

OK so where is the evidence that the US or it's proxies have never ever in the history of the world interfered in the internal affairs of other states?

Blisteringly irrelevant! But a good start to a post that is nothing but paranoia

There are plenty of reports of outside influence in Ukraine, of US embassy payment of "expenses" to "opposition" leaders, of the involvement of US controlled NGOs of US private "security" operatives in Eastern Ukraine etc. Frankly I have neither the time nor the inclination to research and list sources - but even if I did list a source from say RT or John Pilger for instance your response would probably be that they are biased. So it's really a futile exercise.

I would say RT is likely to be biased, and John Pilger has lost his cutting edge in recent years. But, if their evidence were presented I would consider it fairly, as I do any evidence. But - to use the word of 2014 - simply to say there are "plenty of reports" is simply anecdotal until you provide evidence.

Oh and this just in - the US Govt has just broken US law (1961 Foreign Assistance Act) which prohibits it from financially aiding a country whose Head of State has been "deposed by military coup or decree" by assisting a country (Ukraine) whose Head of State has just been deposed by "military coup or decree"!

Isn't this an odd argument? You are implying that the President was ousted by a "military coup or decree", but that seems to be based on your idea that it was managed by US "proxies", for which you provide no evidence. Of course, if it was not so managed, the US has not broken its laws.

 

[kylemore]

Blisteringly irrelevant! But a good start to a post that is nothing but paranoia

I would say RT is likely to be biased

And the BBC isn't?

What are you saying? That the democratically elected Head of State was deposed in democratic elections? If so I must have missed that part. Were there no armed forces on the streets of Kiev?

The President fled Kiev in fear for his life, his car was shot at on the way to the airport - that sounds like an armed coup to me.

Are armed neo-nazis perfectly legitimate people to be doing business with? That appears to be the US Govt's position.

 

[meridian2]

Do you really find the Murdoch press to be impartial? If the answer is yes I'll say no more.

I'll thank you not to continue putting words in my mouth. It makes you r argument look so much weaker, unless you're willing to continue putting words into my mouth and add an answer to your question, in which case I'll say no more

I'll probably laugh at your terminal ineptitude, but that's it.

 

[fowler9]

I'll thank you not to continue putting words in my mouth. It makes you r argument look so much weaker, unless you're willing to continue putting words into my mouth and add an answer to your question, in which case I'll say no more

I'll probably laugh at your terminal ineptitude, but that's it.

Apologies mate. I obviously misunderstood you.

 

[Oswyntail]

And the BBC isn't?

Never said that, as you know. However, the "sources" you quote don't even try to hide their bias. One must try, as ever, to weigh the likelihoods in the various reports

What are you saying? That the democratically elected Head of State was deposed in democratic elections? If so I must have missed that part. Were there no armed forces on the streets of Kiev?

Never said that either. But it would appear that a democratically acceptable political process - the demonstrations - were handled undemocratically by the President - the shootings - who then fled in the face of the reaction. The position of the armed forces changed over the course of events.

The President fled Kiev in fear for his life, his car was shot at on the way to the airport - that sounds like an armed coup to me.

There is a difference between an "armed coup" and people using guns. For me, an "armed coup" implies rather more than someone shooting at the President as he fled to the airport. And, of course, you have subtly changed your wording from "military coup" in your previous post. Big difference there.

Are armed neo-nazis perfectly legitimate people to be doing business with? That appears to be the US Govt's position.

If they are the ones who hold the power, then yes you have to do business with them. Otherwise there would really have been no dealings with Russia itself for quite some time. But the aim surely is to restore Ukraine fully to its place as a stable independent state, and you have to deal with someone. And your "armed neo-nazis" are only part of those holding power currently.

 

[meridian2]

Apologies mate. I obviously misunderstood you.

And sorry from me too, for snapping.

 

[fowler9]

And sorry from me too, for snapping.

No worries mate.

 

[GWRtom]

Gunman have stormed and opened fire in a Ukrainian base in Simferopol,
1 Ukrainian officer has been injured.

Russian troops are storming a Ukrainian military base in Simferopol, and one Ukranian soldier has been wounded in the attack, Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports. It quoted an officer at the military topography and navigation centre as saying that its commander has been captured and the rest of the troops have barricaded themselves in on the first floor of a building at the base.
-BBC

Sources:
https://twitter.com/edmundflanagan
https://twitter.com/search?q=#SIMFEROPOL&src=typd
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26625476#TWEET1075420
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
1 Ukrainian servicemen killed in Simferopol-Defence minister

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How would the Russian view of Crimea leaving Ukraine tally with the Russian view of Kosovo leaving Serbia ?

 

[fowler9]

I guess we are getting an answer to Ukraine-Where will it end. It will now end at the edge of Crimea unlike before.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder why Putin was careful with the phraseology he used in that major speech that he made today with regard to areas outside of Crimea.

 

[fowler9]

I imagine if he is intent on protecting Russians he could start protecting a fair bit of Europe. I'm guessing he will be happy with Black sea ports for now. His navy are pretty much penned in there though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is little said as yet with regard to the status and possible relocation of the Ukrainian military forces who are still in Crimea.

 

[Carlisle]

I may be wrong but I can't ever recall a national referendum on a major issue like independence ever being organised , completed and results implemented in just 10 days anywhere worldwide before ,although i suppose to be fair it's a significant improvement from the Cold War era when they just marched in anyway :roll:

 

[Johnuk123]

Now Crimea is Russian and will stay that way how foolish and incompetent do the EU look.

Ashton, Merkel, Hague and others have been exposed as being utterly useless in the way they have failed in this complete humiliation.

Ashton in particular has been shown to be somebody who has zero personality and obviously no clout. This is what you get when you make the ex-boss of Gingerbread the highest paid female politician in the world with no experience of foreign affairs whatsoever.
I doubt anybody could find somebody so over-promoted as her.

However much people may dislike Putin you can't knock his skill in running rings round Europe he has been shown to be 10 steps ahead at every turn.

If Europe hadn't been so keen on getting it's hands on Sevastopol and taking it's borders right up against Russia none of this would have happened.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Now Crimea is Russian and will stay that way how foolish and incompetent do the EU look.

Ashton, Merkel, Hague and others have been exposed as being utterly useless in the way they have failed in this complete humiliation.

Ashton in particular has been shown to be somebody who has zero personality and obviously no clout. This is what you get when you make the ex-boss of Gingerbread the highest paid female politician in the world with no experience of foreign affairs whatsoever.
I doubt anybody could find somebody so over-promoted as her.

However much people may dislike Putin you can't knock his skill in running rings round Europe he has been shown to be 10 steps ahead at every turn.

If Europe hadn't been so keen on getting it's hands on Sevastopol and taking it's borders right up against Russia none of this would have happened.

And the US, no doubt? Or are they exempt from your vitriol for some reason?

This is not over, and won't be for quite a while. The EU might care about Ukraine, but there's no point increasing tensions with Russia over something that matters very little to the EU (whether Ukraine has Crimea) at the end of the day. This is not the geopolitics of the 19th century where land is everything. But of course to you this is all about the EU landgrabbing, because you refuse to drop the idea that this was all started by the EU in the first place even though there's no evidence for it... Anything for a go at them, isn't it?

Has it occurred to you that the protests were started by the fact that Russia effectively strong-armed the old Ukrainian government into stronger economic and political ties with them? It sparked memories of the old USSR in quite a few people, for reasons that should be pretty obvious.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/17/us-eu-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters-paul-craig-roberts/

US and EU Are Paying Ukrainian Rioters and Protesters

The Brussels apparatchiks decided to stir up Ukraine in the hope of adding the country to the EU 'federation'

The massive amounts of money on offer ( in our case an open cheque book) amount to a massive bribe what else can it be.

The EU have very badly mismanaged this land grab and over a hundred people are dead because of their cynical attempt at naked empire building.

 

[TheKnightWho]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/17/us-eu-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters-paul-craig-roberts/



The Brussels apparatchiks decided to stir up Ukraine in the hope of adding the country to the EU 'federation'

The massive amounts of money on offer ( in our case an open cheque book) amount to a massive bribe what else can it be.

The EU have very badly mismanaged this land grab and over a hundred people are dead because of their cynical attempt at naked empire building.

I give up. You're clearly deluded, inconsistent with your criticisms and refuse to see geopolitics in a 21st century and not a 19th century way. Things just don't work the way you're assuming anymore, as people have repeatedly explained.