UK to the Continent by Sleeper Train

[RT4038]

What's so special about the UK market? Surely all the arguments you're using for sleeper services apply to, for example, Germans? They already have a reasonable number of international sleeper trains (plus a decent "overnight day train" network as well). Is there a reason why this (and other countries) cannot be used as a base point, rather than "there are no international sleepers from the UK so the masses have no way to prove that they would love using a sleeper train"?

Interesting that you raise this as a comparison. Germany (German railways) does not operate any Sleeping Car trains at all. Those that do run are provided from another country, mainly OBB, and generally do not operate to 'holiday' destinations. For example - only one sleeping car train operates from Germany to the Mediterranean (which is a very, very popular holiday destination for Germans), and that is only from Munich, only just inside the very south of Germany. For the size of country, they have very few Sleeping car trains, and nothing entirely internal (aside from a handful of overnight day (sitting up) trains), unlike a much smaller country the UK. Their daytime international trains do not, with a couple of exceptions, penetrate much further distance from the border than E* trains do (and those that do, mainly it is to reach the nearest capital/large City). [just like E*]

(For the avoidance of doubt, I would love to have international sleeper trains from Britain. As long as they're cheap (ie: I can travel for under £50 in a couchette (or equivalent)). However, that's simply not going to happen.

My sentiments entirely. There would be demand, but only at an uneconomic price. (There would be much bigger demand for Rangerovers if they were sold for £15k). That price would be higher than Germany, due to the particularly expensive infrastructure and border that any train from the UK would have to traverse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

And the whole point of trains is you should be able to avoid all of that nonsense, wheeling bags about.

No - that is what airlines do far better, even when there is a change.

 

[SleeperMission]

so for some maths for the channel tunnel and HS1 fees

tunnel fees are set out here
its a wierd £+€ mix but to simplify for a off peak (11pm-7am Mon-fri) its €3965 per train and €17.93 per passenger

It is pretty decent. Hazard a guess at energy costs for circa 1000 miles of train travel? Or are these factored in already?

 

[michael8]

I once did Portsmouth - Caen via Brittany Ferries, train down to Paris, then caught the overnight sleeper train from Paris to Milan (which follows the route of the old Orient Express?) - breakfast in Milan - then onward (normal) train to Venice to finish my journey.

Can highly recommend ! Please feel free to ask any questions

 

[RT4038]

I once did Portsmouth - Caen via Brittany Ferries, train down to Paris, then caught the overnight sleeper train from Paris to Milan (which follows the route of the old Orient Express?) - breakfast in Milan - then onward (normal) train to Venice to finish my journey.

Can highly recommend ! Please feel free to ask any questions

No Paris-Milan (or anywhere else in Italy) sleeper nowadays.

 

[A S Leib]

No Paris-Milan (or anywhere else in Italy) sleeper nowadays.

That doesn't surprise me because of how much the domestic network was cut back, but I wonder why there aren't any sleepers from Switzerland or western Austria to Italy (I can't remember the exact route the München – La Spezia sleeper takes, but I'm fairly sure it's east of Innsbruck).

 

[ABB125]

can't remember the exact route the München – La Spezia sleeper takes, but I'm fairly sure it's east of Innsbruck

Pretty sure it's via Villach

 

[RT4038]

That doesn't surprise me because of how much the domestic network was cut back, but I wonder why there aren't any sleepers from Switzerland or western Austria to Italy (I can't remember the exact route the München – La Spezia sleeper takes, but I'm fairly sure it's east of Innsbruck).

Munich-Salzburg-Villach-Padua-Milan-La Spezia

 

[michael8]

No Paris-Milan (or anywhere else in Italy) sleeper nowadays.

This is sad It was only in about 2015 that I did it.

 

[signed]

That doesn't surprise me because of how much the domestic network was cut back

This has probably nothing to do with it.

It was always ran by Trenitalia independently as Open Access (post Artesia), and it was was moderately successful when it ran but Trenitalia instead chose, after increase in French track access fees and Covid, to run the Frecciarossa day trains from Paris to Milan instead.

 

[SleeperMission]

What if you live in south Bristol? Or perhaps Stockport? Or Edinburgh?

Suddenly, flying from your local airport looks rather more attractive...

You wouldn’t need a sleeper to Cornwall from Bristol.

You’d hopefully have services from these places too. Maybe only twice a week or whatever. But that’s the beauty of rail. It has potential to go point to point.

 

[signed]

homepage

www.fstrenituristici.it

Trenitalia (through the Italian Tourist Train franchise) resurrected the Espresso brand and started a summer service at some days from Rome to Summer destinations in Italy and even in France.

- Rome - Collazo (through bus to Cortina d’Ampezzo) (night train, Espresso Cadore)
- Rome - Lecce (night train, Espresso Salento)
- Milan - Nice (direct day train every summer weekend, Espresso Riviera)
- Milan - Cinque Terre National Park (day train, Espresso Versilia)

And that night train service seem to use a different stock from the traditional Italian ICN coaching stock. There is a full-fledged restaurant car and storage car for bikes and sport equipment.

The price for the Collazo service seem to be on-point even if a bit higher from a competing day-train (€80 in 6 berth, €~70 for a base fare on Intercity services)

 

[30907]

Interesting that you raise this as a comparison. Germany (German railways) does not operate any Sleeping Car trains at all. Those that do run are provided from another country, mainly OBB, and generally do not operate to 'holiday' destinations.
For example - only one sleeping car train operates from Germany to the Mediterranean (which is a very, very popular holiday destination for Germans), and that is only from Munich, only just inside the very south of Germany.

Stuttgart-Venice? That has been the case for a considerable time - it isn't helped by the French dislike of sleeper trains (nor by the speed of TGVs to the Med!).

For the size of country, they have very few Sleeping car trains, and nothing entirely internal

Yes, but in practical terms Ruhr/Hamburg-Munich, Hamburg/Berlin-Basel cover the significant inner-German sleeper routes, even if they continue to Innsbruck/Zurich.

 

[BlueLeanie]

With the existing network, I think you have to play to rails strengths, and embrace the greater room available.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Really pack the seats in, you could probably get maximum profit. 3+2 seats that are 42cm wide, reduce to one door per side per carriage and you could get 100 people per coach

Maximum free luggage size included being the classic Ryanair of 40x20x25cm bag. Airline style overhead bins, sold to match capacity at £50 for a 55x35x25 bag each way. Electronic blackout windows between 8pm and 8am to minimise sleep disruption.

Prebook food, or buy on board.

Sixteen coach train, and you could get 1,600 people on board heading for their holidays.

Think of the difference in income. For every coach of the Caledonian Sleeper there are half a dozen passengers, for every high-density sleeper carriage there would be 100 travellers. Just think of the potential commissionable income there'd be for the staff members for booze, drinks, food, scratchcards.

Turn it around, if people want comfort, they'd pay to fly. If they want a cheap ethical route to tourism, they'd take the train.

 

[HSTEd]

Turn it around, if people want comfort, they'd pay to fly. If they want a cheap ethical route to tourism, they'd take the train.

If they want cheap 'ethical' tourism, they'd take a regular high speed train and sleep at a cheep hotel.

If you really want to try and capture this market for rail, you'd be building hotels integrated with railway stations, with check-in completed at the departure station.
Then people could proceed directly from the station to their room at the arrival station with the minimum of effort.

 

[skyhigh]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Really pack the seats in, you could probably get maximum profit. 3+2 seats that are 42cm wide, reduce to one door per side per carriage and you could get 100 people per coach

Maximum free luggage size included being the classic Ryanair of 40x20x25cm bag. Airline style overhead bins, sold to match capacity at £50 for a 55x35x25 bag each way. Electronic blackout windows between 8pm and 8am to minimise sleep disruption.

Prebook food, or buy on board.

Sixteen coach train, and you could get 1,600 people on board heading for their holidays.

Sounds horrendous. Charging £50 for a bag? You'd just push people onto road coaches.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Sounds horrendous. Charging £50 for a bag? You'd just push people onto road coaches.

That's what the low cost airlines charge for a cabin bag. It's the pick&mix modern travellers expect. Only pay for what you need.

I've just done a return to Boston on Play for £280 with a small under seat bag. Have a Vegas trip booked with a similar bag later on the year for £298.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you have trains travelling at 300-400 kilometres an hour, or within this kind of range, then setup trains in a similar way to planes, but if not, embrace the extra space a train affords.

A jet airliner cruises at between 800 and 1000 km/h, so I think you need to reassess what “close to airline speeds” means in this context?

That's what the low cost airlines charge for a cabin bag. It's the pick&mix modern travellers expect.

It isn’t what people expect of the railway, because one of the advantages is you can take your own bags and not worry about what you’ll be charged in most cases.

 

[BlueLeanie]

It isn’t what people expect of the railway, because one of the advantages is you can take your own bags and not worry about what you’ll be charged in most cases.

That simply wouldn't work.

The whole scope here is for a like for like high density service designed to replace a low-cost airline services. Even on mainstream airlines there's only on average 8 nice seats, everyone else is packed in like sardines same as Ryanair.

There's no way 1600 passengers on a train could bring whatever they wanted. It has to be capacity limited and paid for.

 

[signed]

A high-density night service may make some commercial sense, but in reality who would take it over Ryanair and others who may offer 2 or 3 hours in horrible comfort instead of 8 or 12 on the trains.

Seats should not even be a part of a sleeper unless short hops are allowed, it is basically impossible to sleep in a seat, even if reclineable.

 

[BlueLeanie]

A high-density night service may make some commercial sense, but in reality who would take it over Ryanair and others who may offer 2 or 3 hours in horrible comfort instead of 8 or 12 on the trains.

Seats should not even be a part of a sleeper unless short hops are allowed, it is basically impossible to sleep in a seat, even if reclineable.

The 500 people who sit at the back of an A380 for 10 hours overnight from LA, Singapore, Hong Kong without fuss.

Why should a train be any more comfortable than a plane for 10 hour overnight journeys?

 

[signed]

The 500 people who sit at the back of an A380 for 10 hours overnight from LA, Singapore, Hong Kong without fuss.

Because there are no ways around it. Whereas a London to Europe sleeper would have all kinds of alternatives (plane, car...)

The goal of a train full stop (not even a sleeper) is to provide an alternative to the plane, and if it can be a lot more comfortable then go for it.

A sleeper between London and Bordeaux would take maybe 8 to 10 hours and you need to try to sleep.

A Ryanair flight from London to Bordeaux takes 2 hours and you don't have to try to fall asleep in that plane.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Because there are no ways around it. Whereas a London to Europe sleeper would have all kinds of alternatives (plane, car...)

The goal of a train full stop (not even a sleeper) is to provide an alternative to the plane, and if it can be a lot more comfortable then go for it.

A sleeper between London and Bordeaux would take maybe 8 to 10 hours and you need to try to sleep.

A Ryanair flight from London to Bordeaux takes 2 hours and you don't have to try to fall asleep in that plane.

And as I've pointed out people are quite happy to sleep for 10 hours overnight from LA on fairly small uncomfortable seats through turbulence.

The government subsides every passenger journey on the luxury Caledonian Sleeper for between £168 and £250 depending on the source. If we are going to have mass-market commercial sleepers there can be no subsidy, and the way to do that is maximise the number of passenger seats, and the cross-selling of extras like luggage, F&B, and scratch cards.

 

[skyhigh]

And as I've pointed out people are quite happy to sleep for 10 hours overnight from LA on fairly small uncomfortable seats through turbulence.

Because there is no choice.

Nobody is going to pay to be crammed in a sleeper for 10 hours when the alternative is 2 hours on a Ryanair.

 

[AlterEgo]

That simply wouldn't work.

The whole scope here is for a like for like high density service designed to replace a low-cost airline services. Even on mainstream airlines there's only on average 8 nice seats, everyone else is packed in like sardines same as Ryanair.

There's no way 1600 passengers on a train could bring whatever they wanted. It has to be capacity limited and paid for.

You’re not going to get 1600 passengers on a sleeper train.

 

[renegademaster]

You’re not going to get 1600 passengers on a sleeper train.

That's something people also dont get about international train vs plane travel. Flows between London and <European city> aren't that huge. A few narrow body planes a day of about ~180 people each. The busiest are only about 10 flights a day.

 

[signed]

Flows between London and <European city> aren't that huge.

I doubt that, the Eurostar Blue service is healthily crowded, and it's around 23 to 30 trains per day both ways (to all Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam) with ~900 passengers per train.

On sold-out days (which can and has happened) that's very roughly, 27000 passengers to/from London. And I wouldn't qualify that as small flows.

 

[A S Leib]

I doubt that, the Eurostar Blue service is healthily crowded and it's around 23 to 30 trains per day both ways (to all Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam) with ~900 passengers capacity

On sold out days (which can and has happened) that's very roughly 27000 passengers to/from London every day. And I wouldn't qualify that as small flows.

Paris is the largest urban area on the European continent west of Moscow and Istanbul, and, apart from Rhein-Ruhr, not by a small margin; demand to almost anywhere else, business or leisure, would likely be lower.

To put the 27,000 per day in perspective, that's six times more passengers than between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[AlterEgo]

I doubt that, the Eurostar Blue service is healthily crowded, and it's around 23 to 30 trains per day both ways (to all Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam) with ~900 passengers per train.

On sold-out days (which can and has happened) that's very roughly, 27000 passengers to/from London. And I wouldn't qualify that as small flows.

But the flows to Paris and Brussels on E* also include people travelling much further afield by train, too.

 

[A S Leib]

But the flows to Paris and Brussels on E* also include people travelling much further afield by train, too.

Presumably Eurostar knows how many passengers from St. Pancras are continuing on ex-Thalys services; are those numbers published anywhere (not, of course, that that's the only further option)?

 

[RT4038]

But the flows to Paris and Brussels on E* also include people travelling much further afield by train, too.

I would imagine a fairly small percentage though.