UK to the Continent by Sleeper Train

[Mgameing123]

Which is of course very largely a creation of, and dependent on, low-cost air travel (originally based on charter flights flown by the likes of Dan-Air from the late 1950s onwards). A lot of that market isn't likely to transfer to lengthy, expensive train journeys, it'll just evaporate if air travel gets too expensive.

The sleeper route could definitely generate some income as long you stop at all the popular destinations like Paris, Madrid, Barcelona and maybe Bordeaux? As of price yes it will probably be pricey but as long you make the train journey comfortable and maybe a bit luxurious then I’m very sure people will ride it just for the journey.

 

[signed]

The French railways are showing no signs of 'investing' in International sleeper services, or Sleeping Cars.

It would really depend on what the government is at the time.

We may well order new coaching stock, refurbish the old TGV Atlantique set and use that on night services as seat-only, like some are doing now (without refurb), or even scrap it altogether. I have absolutely no idea.

Seeing the will of SNCF to continue using Corail stock as long as possible, we may well be seeing those for another 10 or so years.

The main issue with scrapping night trains is that there is absolutely no slack capacity on most TGV routes (especially after-work trains) to absorb the (admittedly small, but not that small) passengers that would have to take an early morning or after-work trains.

Wikipedia claims 760 000 passengers have travelled on ICN over the 2023 period, and the usage is growing (up from 630k in 2022). But again, it's mostly in the politician hands now.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why wouldn't we help people travel by plane less?

If this is really the goal then you need to be increasing capacity massively in terms of bums carried on seats - and that is by prioritising day trains. That is also vastly easier.

We all love a sleeper train, but I think they have a natural plateau of utility.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there any figures on their profitability? What are the huge costs? Shunting drivers, staffing? Paying off the rolling stock?

There are no figures on profitability, as it has never been profitable.

The costs are high, because running trains costs a lot of money. Especially when those trains make only six one way trips per week, need detailed servicing after every one (cleaning, bed change, toilets emptying, water refilling, bar restocking), and need dozens of staff on the train for each single trip, and several locos / loco changes. All for around 200 people per trip. Compared to a day long distance train, which will carry twice as many, three times a day, with fewer staff.

The sleeper route could definitely generate some income as long you stop at all the popular destinations like Paris, Madrid, Barcelona and maybe Bordeaux? As of price yes it will probably be pricey but as long you make the train journey comfortable and maybe a bit luxurious then I’m very sure people will ride it just for the journey.

London to Madrid via Paris, Bordeaux and Barcelona is going to take the best part of 24 hours - it’s nearly 1500 miles. The only people who would use it end to end are those doing it for an ‘experience’. Many years ago I posted my estimate of how much it would cost to operate London - Barcelona via Paris, Lyon and Montepllier, taking around 12 hours assuming use of high speed lines where there is capacity for slower trains. The cheapest sleeper fares would be about £500 one way to enable break even, and it would need a long train, capable of carrying around 150-200 people each way per night, and be close to full occupancy. That is around 150-200,000 people a year, in a market of around 2m. If you can find even 0.1% of the current air passengers who would be willing to pay £500 upwards to spend 12 hours on a train rather than 2 in a plane, even if the average air fare trebled, you’ll be doing well. Let alone finding the 10% of the market you need.

Edit: yes I do use the sleepers, having used the CS several times, the Penzance, and several sleepers across Europe, Scandinavia, in the US and Australia. And like many people, barely slept on any of them.

I have also worked in the sleeper management team, albeit many years ago.

 

[SleeperMission]

If this is really the goal then you need to be increasing capacity massively in terms of bums carried on seats - and that is by prioritising day trains. That is also vastly easier.

We all love a sleeper train, but I think they have a natural plateau of utility.

Why wouldn’t it be the goal? As though there is some kind of ulterior motive! It would just be nice to give people the choice. In this day and age that we can’t get a sleeper train direct to the south of France is a crying shame imo.

They certainly do have a natural plateau especially with the tunnel. But why not reach that plateau or utility?

 

[stuu]

I used the sleeper from Hamburg to Stockholm the other day, with my son, I thought it would be an exciting journey as he had never been on a sleeper before. And yes, he was excited at first, but after the fourth or fifth time of screeching to a halt in the middle of nowhere, the excitement began to wear off. It was awful all the way to Copenhagen for stopping and starting, switching on to the opposite track etc, presumably because of engineering works.

The bed was comfortable but how anyone can get a decent sleep in those conditions is beyond me. It's a long time since I had last used one so I think I must have blocked out any of the downsides, but I won't be using a sleeper again any time soon. And I like trains

 

[BlueLeanie]

If it's going to be a mass transit sleeper service that's economical, then make it as close to a plane experience as you possibly can on board.

That's 2+3 seating. And maximum luggage of 40*20*25cm per person.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why wouldn’t it be the goal? As though there is some kind of ulterior motive! It would just be nice to give people the choice. In this day and age that we can’t get a sleeper train direct to the south of France is a crying shame imo.

Honest question. What is the attraction of a sleeper London - south of France compared to London - Paris, change, then sleeper to the South of France? you can do that now.

I used the sleeper from Hamburg to Stockholm the other day

Been there done that! similar experience…

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

They certainly do have a natural plateau especially with the tunnel. But why not reach that plateau or utility?

Could it be that we have in fact already reached that plateau with the status quo? Wishing a service existed because you would enjoy using it does not in any way suggest there is a genuine market for it.

You also fail to recognise a very significant factor: the overwhelming majority of travellers are either time sensitive or price sensitive (or even a combination of both) in making their detailed travel choices. These people will not be interested in your proposals. That leaves you a tiny minority of people with the affluence to afford a premium product but they are unlikely to have a demand to travel in sufficient numbers to fill specific routes. In reality the environmental damage caused by flying pales almost into insignificance compared to wider power generation and consumption.

Frankly if you want individuals to make positive changes to their energy consumption you would do far better persuading them to adopt active travel for their frequent local journeys.

 

[signed]

What is the attraction

Most likely, not changing in Paris. Sure Austerlitz is directly liked to Nord, but it's still a major inconvenience of the ES experience

And also the basic lack of through-fares now. You can't buy a London to anywhere on the sleeper as a through ticket.

Even if you could I don't know if SNCF would love having to pay for hotels.

 

[A S Leib]

And also the basic lack of through-fares now. You can't buy a London to anywhere on the sleeper as a through ticket.

It's strange that the SNCB / NMBS International site sells e.g. St. Pancras to Nice via Eurostar and daytime trains but not the sleeper (I don't know if it gives the end result as one ticket or two, or if rights with missed connections etc. change depending on if it's sold as one ticket or two).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==

The SNCF website does sell through fares (screenshot attached). I don't know if that includes the Métro from Nord to Austerlitz (I'd guess not), there's no through ticketing from other UK stations as far as I can tell, and I think you'd still need to add passport details onto the Eurostar app, so still progress to be made (but the last one applies to flights as well).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Most likely, not changing in Paris. Sure Austerlitz is directly liked to Nord, but it's still a major inconvenience of the ES experience

And also the basic lack of through-fares now. You can't buy a London to anywhere on the sleeper as a through ticket.

Which of course is crazy - in the last century I bought many through rail fares from London to places in mainland Europe: it was normal. But of course, in those days all the railways were co-operating public services, and not competing companies.

 

[popeter45]

so for some maths for the channel tunnel and HS1 fees

tunnel fees are set out here
its a wierd £+€ mix but to simplify for a off peak (11pm-7am Mon-fri) its €3965 per train and €17.93 per passenger

E300 eurostar at 758 seats is €17555.94 or €23.16 per passenger
E320 eurostar at 902 seats is €20137.86 or €22.32 per passenger

lets assume a dual set of next gen nightjets for this example so 4x20 bed sleepers (80 beds), 6x40 bed couchettes (240 beds), 2 accesable cars and 2 control cars (192 seats and 8 beds)
thats 520, about over half of a E320
that sets the tunnel fees at €13288.60 or €25.56 per passenger
while not that much more its overlooking the area diffrence per passenger so lets assume that by splitting the cost per carriage so €781.68
in a sleeper thats €39.08 extra, couchette €19.54 extra and seated €15.63 each

this is also no assuming weekends that are maintenance periodso the per train fee is double and adds 3-6 more euros per passenger as a result

this was the best i could find for HS1 charges
its priced per travel time at £77.18/minute
at 200km/h vmax thats a 35 ish minutes so £2701.30 or €3187.22 for HS1 access charges not adding in electric fees or other charges ive forgotten, about €6.13/passenger

that bring the HS1+tunnel part of a sleeper ticket to €31.69/passenger assuming a uniform distribution

happy for any corrections to be pointed out

 

[RT4038]

Which of course is crazy - in the last century I bought many through rail fares from London to places in mainland Europe: it was normal. But of course, in those days all the railways were co-operating public services, and not competing companies.

If passengers are awarded onerous rights by the existence of through tickets, it is hardly surprising that railway companies seek to mitigate their risk by ceasing to offer such through tickets. In the last century there were no rights of delay compensation or hotel/food for delays or for the railway to make any arrangements - the passenger just had to put up with it and make and pay for their own. The costs of this compensation / mitigation has to be paid for in higher passenger fares and/or taxpayers contribution.

Couple this with compulsory reservation long and medium distance trains (a good thing from an overcrowding/passenger experience point of view) and almost disappearance of overnight trains, the 'old' way of travelling on through tickets is no longer possible and the railways simply don't want this business on these terms. Nor do they want a tapering distance scale of charges, where the yield from long distance through passengers is much lower than shorter distance passengers, for which they can tailor capacity and frequency for at higher yields.

 

[SleeperMission]

If it's going to be a mass transit sleeper service that's economical, then make it as close to a plane experience as you possibly can on board.

That's 2+3 seating. And maximum luggage of 40*20*25cm per person.

If there were Asian style bullet trains travelling at close to airline speeds, fair enough.

With the existing network, I think you have to play to rails strengths, and embrace the greater room available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

Honest question. What is the attraction of a sleeper London - south of France compared to London - Paris, change, then sleeper to the South of France? you can do that now.




Been there done that! similar experience…

Point to point. The beauty is you embark once. The hassle is limited. You get your cabin and you’re done. Next you wake up at your destination.

Most people don’t like looking at trains or changing trains. They want easy no hassle travel. And it is potentially far less hassle than flying.

 

[stuu]

If there were Asian style bullet trains travelling at close to airline speeds, fair enough.

You what?

 

[SleeperMission]

Could it be that we have in fact already reached that plateau with the status quo?

How could we when there isn’t one service available from the UK to the continent overnight? This fact undermines the rest of your argument.

Wishing a service existed because you would enjoy using it does not in any way suggest there is a genuine market for it.

With people keen to cut emissions…
With families able to take a cabin with privacy and less hassle…
With centre to centre travel and no transfers…
With other sleeper services existing and even expanding…

…it suggests there is a market for it. Especially since places world be limited.

You also fail to recognise a very significant factor: the overwhelming majority of travellers are either time sensitive or price sensitive (or even a combination of both) in making their detailed travel choices. These people will not be interested in your proposals.

Markets are always developed. The market for flights was developed over decades.

And your premise isn’t entirely correct here. See Which? analysis quoted in this thread showing for a family, a sleeper is often cheaper.

And you can measure time in different ways too. For example:

A family of 4 could travel by sleeper train after work/school on a Friday night. I know because I did this 4 weeks ago to the day. It took some care with the 4 year old having a good sleep at lunchtime. But then the fun of the train was a thing. And we all slept fine (many do!) and woke up at 6:30 for breakfast in beautiful Cornwall.

Our waking hours on the train was probably 1.5 hours maximum! No “are we there yet?” No stopping for toilet breaks.

A flight - might be to the south of France - leaving after school/work on a Friday night is far more taxing. With kids it’s unlikely most would want to. Most would opt for a Saturday morning instead. And with transfer and security you’d realistically arrive on Saturday afternoon at best. So real world, you are ahead via a sleeper. And you’ve effectively saved a nights bed and board too.

That leaves you a tiny minority of people with the affluence to afford a premium product but they are unlikely to have a demand to travel in sufficient numbers to fill specific routes.

There are these people too. It’s a decent market.

In reality the environmental damage caused by flying pales almost into insignificance compared to wider power generation and consumption.

Not so. Planes are hugely carbon intensive. And the only reason they are not more damaging is because only 10% of the global population fly. Still 2.5% of global carbon emissions but causing 4% of the warming seems to be the consensus data.

Frankly if you want individuals to make positive changes to their energy consumption you would do far better persuading them to adopt active travel for their frequent local journeys.

Why is it one or the other? Why not both?

 

[signed]

If passengers are awarded onerous rights by the existence of through tickets, it is hardly surprising that railway companies seek to mitigate their risk by ceasing to offer such through tickets

Why the airlines cope with that (at least the get to the destination part, the compensation part is (as expected) a bigger minefield) then and not the TOC? I don't think it has anything to do with the current state of rail passenger rail, more the privatisation effort started by the EU under the banner of opening to competition.

And take a lot more risk (last flight of the day...) than any train operator with the rights to be given while still having ample through ticketing through the GDS.

 

[SleeperMission]

You what?

If you have trains travelling at 300-400 kilometres an hour, or within this kind of range, then setup trains in a similar way to planes, but if not, embrace the extra space a train affords.

 

[ABB125]

How could we when there isn’t one service available from the UK to the continent overnight? This fact undermines the rest of your argument.

What's so special about the UK market? Surely all the arguments you're using for sleeper services apply to, for example, Germans? They already have a reasonable number of international sleeper trains (plus a decent "overnight day train" network as well). Is there a reason why this (and other countries) cannot be used as a base point, rather than "there are no international sleepers from the UK so the masses have no way to prove that they would love using a sleeper train"?

(For the avoidance of doubt, I would love to have international sleeper trains from Britain. As long as they're cheap (ie: I can travel for under £50 in a couchette (or equivalent)). However, that's simply not going to happen. And, for my use case, they would likely be fairly useless outwards, due to the way that Interrail days work.)

 

[Gaelan]

E300 eurostar at 758 seats is €17555.94 or €23.16 per passenger
E320 eurostar at 902 seats is €20137.86 or €22.32 per passenger

lets assume a dual set of next gen nightjets for this example so 4x20 bed sleepers (80 beds), 6x40 bed couchettes (240 beds), 2 accesable cars and 2 control cars (192 seats and 8 beds)
thats 520, about over half of a E320
that sets the tunnel fees at €13288.60 or €25.56 per passenger
while not that much more its overlooking the area diffrence per passenger so lets assume that by splitting the cost per carriage so €781.68
in a sleeper thats €39.08 extra, couchette €19.54 extra and seated €15.63 each

this is also no assuming weekends that are maintenance periodso the per train fee is double and adds 3-6 more euros per passenger as a result

I suspect you know this, but worth noting that the tunnel fees are per passenger actually on board - so a sleeper that was only half loaded through the tunnel (perhaps passengers are also joining in Paris or Brussels) would cost less, although of course the remaining passengers would need to cover a bigger share of the €3965.

 

[SleeperMission]

What's so special about the UK market? Surely all the arguments you're using for sleeper services apply to, for example, Germans? They already have a reasonable number of international sleeper trains (plus a decent "overnight day train" network as well). Is there a reason why this (and other countries) cannot be used as a base point, rather than "there are no international sleepers from the UK so the masses have no way to prove that they would love using a sleeper train"?

(For the avoidance of doubt, I would love to have international sleeper trains from Britain. As long as they're cheap (ie: I can travel for under £50 in a couchette (or equivalent)). However, that's simply not going to happen. And, for my use case, they would likely be fairly useless outwards, due to the way that Interrail days work.)

An excellent point. It would be interesting to know more about the German (and French) sleeper services, and how they fair.
Why the UK? Simply because there should be services to and from the UK. Whatever the UK is - the 5th or 6th largest economy - it should have such a facility.

 

[Bald Rick]

The beauty is you embark once.

How do you get to St Pancras?

 

[ABB125]

An excellent point. It would be interesting to know more about the German (and French) sleeper services, and how they fair.
Why the UK? Simply because there should be services to and from the UK. Whatever the UK is - the 5th or 6th largest economy - it should have such a facility.

For reference, I have attached the latest iteration of the German "overnight day train" network (note that all IC60xxx and EC458/459 are additional day coaches added to the consist of a NightJet train), as well as the "proper" sleeper train network (which shows most of the NightJet network, but excludes the Swedish sleepers for some reason. There are probably others missing too). I have also attached a NightJet network map (which as you will see, has lots of crossover).

As you can see, a fairly comprehensive network across central Europe. Yet flights still exist in abundance...

 

[SleeperMission]

How do you get to St Pancras?

We took a taxi.

 

[ABB125]

We took a taxi.

What if you live in south Bristol? Or perhaps Stockport? Or Edinburgh?

Suddenly, flying from your local airport looks rather more attractive...

 

[SleeperMission]

For reference, I have attached the latest iteration of the German "overnight day train" network (note that all IC60xxx and EC458/459 are additional day coaches added to the consist of a NightJet train), as well as the "proper" sleeper train network (which shows most of the NightJet network, but excludes the Swedish sleepers for some reason. There are probably others missing too). I have also attached a NightJet network map (which as you will see, has lots of crossover).

As you can see, a fairly comprehensive network across central Europe. Yet flights still exist in abundance...

Cheers. Fascinating. Missives:

A London Zurich (via Amsterdam) service might be viable?

I'd love to get down into Italy via train. Never tried Italian sleepers.

Here's the French map:

• Paris - Toulouse
• Paris - Rodez
• Paris - Latour-de-Carol
• Paris - Cerbère
• Paris - Tarbes
• Paris - Briançon
• Paris - Nice
• Paris - Aurillac

Thinking as a consumer, I'd love to get the train to the Pyrénées for a break. But would I by train with the hassle and time needed to change in Paris? Currently, consumers would be nudged (pushed pretty hard) towards an airline ticket instead.

 

[A S Leib]

But would I by train with the hassle and time needed to change in Paris?

I don't think changing in Paris takes up much time – and, given the state of the rail network in France, I suspect it's probably quicker than trying to avoid Paris would be in most cases – but, having done it a few weeks ago, the lack of escalators / lifts at lots of stations is definitely annoying with suitcases (or wheelchairs).

 

[ABB125]

A London Zurich (via Amsterdam) service might be viable?

Not via Amsterdam, the current sleeper leaves there around 2030 (which is 1930 UK time). Possibly joining around Cologne. Likewise in the opposite direction, arrival in Amsterdam is around 0915.
It might be possible to adjust the order of the three "German" sleepers from Zurich (Amsterdam, Hamburg and Berlin) to adjust the times at the northern end in order to make a UK portion more attractive: Amsterdam is the last off the three from Zurich, and first to arrive back there again. However, there's only one hourly path in/out of Zurich available to Basel (xx59 from Zurich, xx05 arrival, most of the day this is used by ICE trains to/from Germany then switches to sleepers (which is one of the reasons they have a rake of Swiss day coaches attached for Zurich to Basel). Shifting any of the three trains by an hour kor possibly two) might cause all sorts of issues though, which someone more familiar with German timetable planning would have to look into

 

[SleeperMission]

I don't think changing in Paris takes up much time – and, given the state of the rail network in France, I suspect it's probably quicker than trying to avoid Paris would be in most cases – but, having done it a few weeks ago, the lack of escalators / lifts at lots of stations is definitely annoying with suitcases (or wheelchairs).

Okay. I will keep an open mind. I have done it 20+ years ago. A couple of times staying over in Paris as well. The Metro is confusing for most. Even having lived in Paris, trying to get from one station around to the other under time pressure is just stressful. And the whole point of trains is you should be able to avoid all of that nonsense, wheeling bags about.