UK to the Continent by Sleeper Train

[miklcct]

I am not suggesting alternative modes - initially I would expect people to travel less often as air fares rise (not proposing 'cliff-edge' massive hikes in air fares, but a gradual increase), or will travel to closer destinations (domestically or internationally) on day trains/car journeys. At some point these rises may make some sleeper services economic, but these are likely to be maximum capacity budget couchette type services, not high service sleepers. Those who can afford high service unsubsidised sleeper trains will probably fork out for high price air tickets anyway.

This is going backwards and will damage the economy. Do you seriously want the world to dial back a century when air travel was still in its novelty? The only way I will support taxing air travel is to provide reasonable alternative modes.

If taxes are levied on air travel, these tax must be ringfenced to provide subsidy such that alternative travel modes become realistic, i.e. people won't become worse off by keeping the amount of travel the same.

A lot of travel is irreplaceable, for example, travelling to events. I am a sportsman travelling to the international races for ranking points, and there is no way these trips become practical without flying from the UK with the current transport network, simply because the UK is an island country. The UK magically gave me a visa because of China's wrongdoing, and I have replaced multiple long-haul flights per year between the Far East and the EU with short-haul flights as a result. If the EU somewhats magically give me a visa to live on the continent, then I will replace these short-haul flights with overland travel.

 

[SleeperMission]

How do these two statements reconcile?

Sleeper demand in Europe is booming as a budget option, because it allows people to save costs compared to a hotel and fast train. However for sleepers from the UK to the continent the option of charging low cost fares and making it up in volume isn't possible, because of the access charges for 3 of the most highly in-demand sections of infrastructure in Europe. People who can afford to pay more for a sleeper train are also likely to be able to pay for a day train and a hotel, so the business model falls apart.
The air market can be very misleading - the vast majority of UK air travel from regional cities is either long-haul connections (where ticketing and layover are a high priority) or package holidays (where getting to the hotel ASAP is key). Neither of these are likely to transfer to the sleeper train, and package holidays are budget-conscious.

Ultimately, the limitation of 1 fixed crossing is always going to be a step too far for something as niche and inefficient as a sleeper train. Leave the limited overnight tunnel capacity to a mix of freight and shuttles.

Are you asking how you can make sleeper services cheaper? The answer is by packing in more people. Personally, I think the model works best similar to airlines that have 10 hour services. You have economy tickets, and premium. I don't think the premium segment has been explored fully yet on trains. Biz class on a flight feels premium. The spaces feel more elite in biz class flight, and more utilitarian on sleeper trains. As with OBB I think there is room for 3 classes essentially: premium cabins with shower, and I think the cabins could be made to be much more like a hotel, with some extra service care. Brining people some fizz and nibbles on arrival etc. People like this kind of thing. Whilst it doesn't cost a huge amount to provide a couple of glasses of plonk and some nuts, you can start to charge a huge amount.

Interim carriages for families and groups. I would get rid of single occupancy.

Then single beds/seats.

A lounge and place to eat, with sittings.

As you outline, sleepers are in no way a solution to mass air travel. Huge numbers use the UK as a hub or are flying over oceans. The segment we are interested in here, are those travelling to France, Spain, Germany, Poland? etc which can be serviced by sleeper train. And with some international cooperation and political will, Europe could start to make a dent in short-haul air travel. Why wouldn't you! Crazy to not find a way imo.

 

[skyhigh]

Why wouldn't you!

Because of all the reasons you've been given...

 

[SleeperMission]

Sleeper trains may well exist and work (in an operational sense) in some locations (most have disappeared both in Europe and worldwide). Very few 'work' in a financial, non subsidy sense either in themselves or in comparison with subsidy to daytime trains or other modes. I do not think it appropriate to subsidise leisure journeys to far destinations, and certainly not high service operations.

I am not suggesting alternative modes - initially I would expect people to travel less often as air fares rise (not proposing 'cliff-edge' massive hikes in air fares, but a gradual increase), or will travel to closer destinations (domestically or internationally) on day trains/car journeys. At some point these rises may make some sleeper services economic, but these are likely to be maximum capacity budget couchette type services, not high service sleepers. Those who can afford high service unsubsidised sleeper trains will probably fork out for high price air tickets anyway.

I do think there would be demand for sleepers. I do not think that there is demand for sleepers at a non-subsidised fare unless air fares are seriously into the stratosphere. I do not think subsidies for International leisure trains is justifiable.


I am yet to be convinced that OBB know what they are doing financially on their international sleeper services, and fully expect the whole operation to come crashing down on them , as CityNightLine before. As for the other start up operations, using elderly depreciated rolling stock, time will tell whether these operations are making any money (or just eating into the start up capital) and whether there is enough revenue to pay for stock replacement.

As a businessman yourself, you will know that the existence of a service or product does not imply financial success, and we can wait with bated breath to see if the longer term economics pan out. (especially as we know what the economics of our own sleeper trains are)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==


If air fares rose above a certain level, I am sure they would reappear.

The pace of change is slow. And political change is even slower. Yet its coming. Taxing aviation fuel, it must happen. Conversations are taking place. Action sadly takes time, but it will come. We have carbon targets to meet as well and treaties we have signed up to. Consumers are playing their part too. With an increasing committment to lowering their footprints. To not provide them with a way to seamlessly travel by train overnight, is an oversight imo. And if there were attractive options to from the UK people would happily pay for it. The barrier are the doom-mongers, the 'no we can't', the barriers are too great, it has always been like this, brigade. That is no criticism of you whatsoever. I wanted to understand the barriers. And your cogent points are real and affective. It isn't an easy service to get off the ground granted. But I am sure we will within a decade, hopefully sooner. The equation is simple:

Air travel is highly polluting.

+

People love to travel.

+

Technologically, it is possible to spend a couple of waking hours on a sleeper and reach southern Europe. The tech and knowledge are available once the political impetus is there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==

Because of all the reasons you've been given...

none of the issues outlined are insurmountable. Global warming on the other hard is a huge massive challenge. Why wouldn't we help people travel by plane less?

 

[RT4038]

The pace of change is slow. And political change is even slower. Yet its coming. Taxing aviation fuel, it must happen. Conversations are taking place. Action sadly takes time, but it will come. We have carbon targets to meet as well and treaties we have signed up to. Consumers are playing their part too. With an increasing committment to lowering their footprints. To not provide them with a way to seamlessly travel by train overnight, is an oversight imo. And if there were attractive options to from the UK people would happily pay for it. The barrier are the doom-mongers, the 'no we can't', the barriers are too great, it has always been like this, brigade. That is no criticism of you whatsoever. I wanted to understand the barriers. And your cogent points are real and affective. It isn't an easy service to get off the ground granted. But I am sure we will within a decade, hopefully sooner. The equation is simple:

Air travel is highly polluting.

+

People love to travel.

+

Technologically, I can spend a couple of waking hours on a sleeper and reach southern Europe. The tech and knowledge is available once the political impetus is there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==



none of the issues outlined are insurmountable imo. Global warming on the other hard is a huge massive challenge. Why wouldn't we help people travel by plane less?

It was done before. (not the through train departing from London, but sleeping car trains lining the quay at Ostend, Calais and Hoek van Holland, with a through car to all sorts of exotic destinations.). However, only a very small percentage of the population then could afford to make such journeys. There was no other practicable alternative, apart from going by ship on a much longer journey, to some destinations. It would have been getting on to the equivalent of the £1000 per person return it would have to be now in a sleeping car to Spain or Italy I expect. So until air fares get towards that sort of level then equivalent Sleeping Car trains are likely to muchly remain dormant.

Helping people travel by plane less is far more likely to be achieved by them travelling less, both in frequency and distance, rather than trying to replicate existing leisure travel patterns with an expensive alternative. Fine if those people want to pay for it (and an entrepreneur and backers are willing to risk the funds), but I don't think it appropriate for subsidies to be involved. However, this doesn't seem to be happening yet, which would seem to indicate that the financial imperatives are not yet in place.

 

[zwk500]

Are you asking how you can make sleeper services cheaper? The answer is by packing in more people.

No, I'm telling you you can't make sleeper services cheap *enough* from the UK. Pack more people in and you increase your costs. If you go beyond HS1 you will need gauge-compliant trains that can't take 3 bunks stacked, if you stay on HS1 you'll be paying eye-watering rates by the minute.

Personally, I think the model works best similar to airlines that have 10 hour services. You have economy tickets, and premium. I don't think the premium segment has been explored fully yet on trains. Biz class on a flight feels premium. The spaces feel more elite in biz class flight, and more utilitarian on sleeper trains.

Caledonian Sleeper absolutely has tried this model, and it requires vast amounts of subsidy. The profitable luxury sleeper trains such as the Orient Express are selling an experience not a journey, and their margins are on the wine list.

As you outline, sleepers are in no way a solution to mass air travel. Huge numbers use the UK as a hub or are flying over oceans. The segment we are interested in here, are those travelling to France, Spain, Germany, Poland? etc which can be serviced by sleeper train.

Some of France, western Germany maybe. Not Spain or Poland. Flying will always win on journey time there.

And with some international cooperation and political will, Europe could start to make a dent in short-haul air travel. Why wouldn't you! Crazy to not find a way imo.

Because the way to make a dent in Short-haul Air travel is day trains, not sleepers. As you've been told, lots. I'm all for earlier/later day trains and expanding the 'blue' Eurostar network to include potential competitive routes for air travel. The market exists for those services. It just doesn't exist for a business class sleeper with some cheap seats.
London-Amsterdam is one of the biggest air markets in Europe, get that journey down routinely below 4hrs and run a 1000 seats every 2 hours or more and you'll make a far bigger dent in Air travel than a single sleeper, while making far better use of any assets and staff needed to run any 1 train.

 

[SleeperMission]

No, I'm telling you you can't make sleeper services cheap *enough* from the UK. Pack more people in and you increase your costs. If you go beyond HS1 you will need gauge-compliant trains that can't take 3 bunks stacked, if you stay on HS1 you'll be paying eye-watering rates by the minute.

Lighter trainers, or making more revenue are the answers here.

Caledonian Sleeper absolutely has tried this model, and it requires vast amounts of subsidy. The profitable luxury sleeper trains such as the Orient Express are selling an experience not a journey, and their margins are on the wine list.

From images on the Caledonian website, I don't think their cabins and facilities are anything to write home about. I've not tried the service. Would be interested in peoples opinions. It seeems like there is currently a cap on the levels of luxury train companies think people will pay for. And yes, why would you pay £1k a ticket when you can fly in no time. Yet, people pay more for those Orient Express experiences and they pay for biz class. So under the right circumstances there is a market for a few high-end, high-income generating tickets. But the offering needs to be a cut above what is on offer today. Then OBB have the rest of the model right it seems with an ability to accomdate varying budgets with less room taken up.

Some of France, western Germany maybe. Not Spain or Poland. Flying will always win on journey time there.

Flying wins all the time atm. But we're looking at tomorrow, not today. I don't see why trains leaving after work, couldn't deliver people to Spain or Poland the next morning. It would be challenging, expensive etc but possible right?

Because the way to make a dent in Short-haul Air travel is day trains, not sleepers. As you've been told, lots. I'm all for earlier/later day trains and expanding the 'blue' Eurostar network to include potential competitive routes for air travel. The market exists for those services. It just doesn't exist for a business class sleeper with some cheap seats.

A number of points. How do you know the market doesn't exist today? How could you possibly know it does not exist tomorrow?

Day trains are great, but the proposition to customers is different. A sleeper you can sell as being similar to a plane, as you have similar waking hours travel time, less hassle than a plane, and you arrive fresh in the morning etc. Day trains are an extra 2 days off your holiday in most peoples mind. And you arrive tired at the end of the day. Unless they are bullet fast, they are a downgrade for most people.

London-Amsterdam is one of the biggest air markets in Europe, get that journey down routinely below 4hrs and run a 1000 seats every 2 hours or more and you'll make a far bigger dent in Air travel than a single sleeper, while making far better use of any assets and staff needed to run any 1 train.

Absolutely. But this doesn't preclude the use case for sleeper travel. As outlined there is a shift in momentum. At the moment changes are slow, but once it picks up, alternative ways to travel in Europe need to be ready. For example: https://www.euronews.com/green/2024...s-it-encouraged-more-people-to-take-the-train

 

[Mgameing123]

Yes, they are in a previous thread.

Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

Just wondering why sleeper trains from St Pancras have never happened given how popular these seem in Europe?

www.railforums.co.uk

Mainly that sleeper trains aren't economic, and that people don't want to get up in the early hours to disembark at Lille for an hour.

Much easier to have night trains that start on the continent and use day trains to connect into them from the UK. All that is really needed is for Paris, Lille or Brussels to be some sort of sleeper hub, and then sell through tickets on Eurostar. However, the ticket prices won't be cheap.

I have a solution. Why not run a sleeper train from London to Barcelona and Madrid? Surely there would be enough demand to build border check points if we also run some daytime trains.

 

[signed]

Surely there would be enough demand to build border check points if we also run some daytime trains.

Who would pay for station remodeling for border checkpoints?

Let's take the DB example (from Frankfurt to London), if it's DB (or whatever the station-running subsidiary) paying, it's German taxpayers paying for a free pass for E* Blue to start competing (not that it will, seeing how hand-in-hand SNCF and SNCB are with DB domestically).

In this case, there is no way in hell that RENFE (or ADIF) would pay for it unless they can prevent SNCF (and E* by the same) from operating such service through (the Spaniards are extremely mad that we opened Ouigo Espana)

 

[zwk500]

Lighter trainers,

What difference does weight have here? Trains are priced by time on HS1.

or making more revenue are the answers here.

You have less people to make money on, and less opportunities to make money from different people, on a sleeper. A day train can use the same seat every couple of hours or so. Therefore you need to rinse the sleeper passengers to get any more revenue, which defeats the low-cost business model.

From images on the Caledonian website, I don't think their cabins and facilities are anything to write home about. I've not tried the service. Would be interested in peoples opinions. It seeems like there is currently a cap on the levels of luxury train companies think people will pay for.

Do you think people who run Sleeper trains as a day job might know what they're doing?

And yes, why would you pay £1k a ticket when you can fly in no time. Yet, people pay more for those Orient Express experiences and they pay for biz class. So under the right circumstances there is a market for a few high-end, high-income generating tickets. But the offering needs to be a cut above what is on offer today. Then OBB have the rest of the model right it seems with an ability to accomdate varying budgets with less room taken up.

You've completely and utterly missed the point re the Orient Express. It's not a service, it's a luxury experience.

Flying wins all the time atm. But we're looking at tomorrow, not today. I don't see why trains leaving after work, couldn't deliver people to Spain or Poland the next morning. It would be challenging, expensive etc but possible right?

Planes are not likely to slow down anytime soon. A plane does c.500mph in the cruise. Say 1hr travel to Airport, 1.5hr check-in to take-off, plus 1hr Reclaim + transfers at the other end, The train goes 180mph in the cruise and is, for the sake of argument, 0.75hr travel to Station, 1hr Check-in to depart, 0.25hr transfer at other end. For a 500 mile journey, Plane is 3.5hr faffing + 1hr flight, Train is 2hr faffing + 2.75hr journey = Plane is 15 mins up on Door-to Destination time already.
For reference, 500 miles in a direct line (which the plane can stick much closer to than the train) is London to Grenoble, Leipzig, or Zurich. London to Barcelona is 700 miles, London to Warsaw 895 miles.

A number of points. How do you know the market doesn't exist today?

Because I can read the market offering in terms of Trains, Planes and Ferries.

How could you possibly know it does not exist tomorrow?

Because I can read the long-term trends as to how the market has been changing, and we are beginning to see the long-term impacts of covid come through now.

Day trains are great, but the proposition to customers is different. A sleeper you can sell as being similar to a plane,

No you can't, a plane is a short flight and then you are there.

as you have similar waking hours travel time, less hassle than a plane, and you arrive fresh in the morning etc. Day trains are an extra 2 days off your holiday in most peoples mind.

Sleepers are no more time in your holiday though, as most people don't consider the holiday to begin until they are actually at their destination, unless the train travel is an active part of the holiday itself.

And you arrive tired at the end of the day. Unless they are bullet fast, they are a downgrade for most people.

You arrive tired at the beginning of the day from having used as Sleeper train in many people's experience!

Absolutely. But this doesn't preclude the use case for sleeper travel. As outlined there is a shift in momentum. At the moment changes are slow, but once it picks up, alternative ways to travel in Europe need to be ready. For example: https://www.euronews.com/green/2024...s-it-encouraged-more-people-to-take-the-train

Not in/from the UK. CS and the Night Riviera are being kept alive on a mix of tourists for the novelty, romantics, and subsidy.

 

[SleeperMission]

Who would pay for station remodeling for border checkpoints?

Let's take the DB example (from Frankfurt to London), if it's DB (or whatever the station-running subsidiary) paying, it's German taxpayers paying for a free pass for E* Blue to start competing (not that it will, seeing how hand-in-hand SNCF and SNCB are with DB domestically).

In this case, there is no way in hell that RENFE (or ADIF) would pay for it unless they can prevent SNCF (and E* by the same) from operating such service through (the Spaniards are extremely mad that we opened Ouigo Espana)

I think Mgameing123 is right to start from a position considering demand. If the demand is there, and the pricing is feasible (big IFs as we know), then setup costs can be solved one way or another. Some kind of EU treaty on rail travel could help, but IDk what that might look like. We are all signed up to cutting carbon emissions. Investing money into it makes sense.

 

[signed]

Some kind of EU treaty on rail travel could help

Seeing how much the EU is pushing private railways, that will never happen

 

[RT4038]

I have a solution. Why not run a sleeper train from London to Barcelona and Madrid? Surely there would be enough demand to build border check points if we also run some daytime trains.

Why not indeed? Will you put your money into this enterprise, and find lots of other people to do so as well? There doesn't seem to be a lot of success in raising the capital for this kind of enterprise at the moment? Possibly because it is realised that it will not be viable while the current fare structure for air travel is as it is.

I think Mgameing123 is right to start from a position considering demand. If the demand is there, and the pricing is feasible (big IFs as we know), then setup costs can be solved one way or another. Some kind of EU treaty on rail travel could help, but IDk what that might look like. We are all signed up to cutting carbon emissions. Investing money into it makes sense.

So why are businesses not falling over themselves to invest in this currently? We don't need to set up expensive alternatives to leisure travel patterns that only exist because of aeroplanes. It would not be investment, it would be throwing money down the drain so some people can carry on their leisure at others' expense.

 

[SleeperMission]

What difference does weight have here? Trains are priced by time on HS1.

Why can't you have 3 bunks? Because of height restrictions? OBB seem to stack sleeping booths quite effectively.

You have less people to make money on, and less opportunities to make money from different people, on a sleeper. A day train can use the same seat every couple of hours or so. Therefore you need to rinse the sleeper passengers to get any more revenue, which defeats the low-cost business model.

Who said it was a low-cost biz model?

Do you think people who run Sleeper trains as a day job might know what they're doing?

Some clearly do with routes flourishing (which you think will fail).

You've completely and utterly missed the point re the Orient Express. It's not a service, it's a luxury experience.

No I didn't. You missed the point that you can sell an experience within a travel service.

Planes are not likely to slow down anytime soon.

You have not considered the prospect of increased regulation and/or taxation. And to say increased short-haul air restrictions won't happen only makes me question your claimed ability to read the market and reality; because it has already happened within France. And individuals are counting up their emissions themselves. You are thinking about today, and not tomorrow.

A plane does c.500mph in the cruise. Say 1hr travel to Airport, 1.5hr check-in to take-off, plus 1hr Reclaim + transfers at the other end, The train goes 180mph in the cruise and is, for the sake of argument, 0.75hr travel to Station, 1hr Check-in to depart, 0.25hr transfer at other end. For a 500 mile journey, Plane is 3.5hr faffing + 1hr flight, Train is 2hr faffing + 2.75hr journey = Plane is 15 mins up on Door-to Destination time already.
For reference, 500 miles in a direct line (which the plane can stick much closer to than the train) is London to Grenoble, Leipzig, or Zurich. London to Barcelona is 700 miles, London to Warsaw 895 miles.

Because I can read the market offering in terms of Trains, Planes and Ferries.

Because I can read the long-term trends as to how the market has been changing, and we are beginning to see the long-term impacts of covid come through now.

No you can't, a plane is a short flight and then you are there.

Sleepers are no more time in your holiday though, as most people don't consider the holiday to begin until they are actually at their destination, unless the train travel is an active part of the holiday itself.

If sleepers are "an experience" the holiday starts once you board. That should be something a rail enthusiast could identify with, if nothing else!

You arrive tired at the beginning of the day from having used as Sleeper train in many people's experience!

That may be! Personally, I am happy to get a decent 5-6 hours on a sleeper, and I find the motion and cosy cabin give me a very secure rest. And I arrive excited, refreshed. Sorry that you don't have a similar experiece.

Not in/from the UK. CS and the Night Riviera are being kept alive on a mix of tourists for the novelty, romantics, and subsidy.

it is owned by the Scottish government now. Are there any figures on their profitability? What are the huge costs? Shunting drivers, staffing? Paying off the rolling stock?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==

Why not indeed? Will you put your money into this enterprise, and find lots of other people to do so as well? There doesn't seem to be a lot of success in raising the capital for this kind of enterprise at the moment? Possibly because it is realised that it will not be viable while the current fare structure for air travel is as it is.


So why are businesses not falling over themselves to invest in this currently? We don't need to set up expensive alternatives to leisure travel patterns that only exist because of aeroplanes. It would not be investment, it would be throwing money down the drain so some people can carry on their leisure at others' expense.

Next-generation Railjets enter service to link three countries

EUROPE: Austrian Federal Railways has put into service the first of its updated Railjet trainsets on services linking Germany, Austria and Italy. Toma Bačić rode on a preview run between München and Verona on April 5. EUROPE: Austrian Federal Railways has put its second-generation Railjet...

www.railwaygazette.com

245m Euro order. It doesn't fit your narrative, but there it is.

 

[signed]

245m Euro order. It doesn't fit your narrative, but there it is.

The article links mention RailJets which are day trains, not NightJets

 

[RT4038]

Next-generation Railjets enter service to link three countries

EUROPE: Austrian Federal Railways has put into service the first of its updated Railjet trainsets on services linking Germany, Austria and Italy. Toma Bačić rode on a preview run between München and Verona on April 5. EUROPE: Austrian Federal Railways has put its second-generation Railjet...

www.railwaygazette.com

245m Euro order. It doesn't fit your narrative, but there it is.

These are not Sleeping car trains.

 

[skyhigh]

From images on the Caledonian website, I don't think their cabins and facilities are anything to write home about. I've not tried the service.

A genuine question - how many sleeper trains have you been on yourself?

 

[signed]

because it has already happened within France

That law has no teeth in reality

Voyage en avion

Pour voyager en avion, votre identité sera vérifiée. Vous pouvez être indemnisé en cas de surbooking, de vol retardé ou annulé. La compagnie aérienne est responsable si vos bagages sont perdus.

www.service-public.fr

It only deals with three specific cases which seem arbitrary :

• Paris Orly-Nantes ;
• Paris Orly-Lyon ;
• Paris Orly-Bordeaux.

A huge majority of the flights between these destination pairs use Paris CDG and not Orly.

TL;DR : it does nothing to the domestic flights in France, and those are very much alive and well between Paris and Toulouse, Lyon and others.

 

[SleeperMission]

The article links mention RailJets which are day trains, not NightJets

ÖBB night-trains will have “pods” for solo travellers from December on

Austria’s national railway company, ÖBB, is set to introduce a new fleet of 33 night trains in December 2023. Among the various enhancements offered, a distinctive feature is…

www.railtech.com

How much are 33 trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==

That law has no teeth in reality

Voyage en avion

Pour voyager en avion, votre identité sera vérifiée. Vous pouvez être indemnisé en cas de surbooking, de vol retardé ou annulé. La compagnie aérienne est responsable si vos bagages sont perdus.

www.service-public.fr

It only deals with three specific cases which seem arbitrary :

• Paris Orly-Nantes ;
• Paris Orly-Lyon ;
• Paris Orly-Bordeaux.

A huge majority of those pairs of those flights use Paris CDG and not Orly.

TL;DR : it does nothing to the domestic flights in France, and those are very much alive and well between Paris and Toulouse, Lyon and others.

The detail isn't the important bit here, it is the direction of travel.

 

[signed]

The detail isn't the important bit here

It very much is, it's a political show law, it has done nothing apart from appeal to people that don't read, and will do nothing especially with (extreme) right wing coming to power soon.

To do anything the law should have had a 4 hours cutoff for the train journey, not 2h30, since it is roughly equivalent to a 1h flight from door-to-door.

 

[SleeperMission]

A genuine question - how many sleeper trains have you been on yourself?

I've been to scotland a long time ago, cornwall twice, through Europe on numerous services though france and spain, and even one in Morocco. How many have you been on?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==

It very much is, it's a political show law, it has done nothing apart from appeal to people that don't read, and will do nothing especially with (extreme) right wing coming to power soon.

To do anything the law should have had a 4 hours cutoff for the train journey, not 2h30, since it is roughly equivalent to a 1h flight from door-to-door.

You have to start somewhere. Progress is incremental, more often than not.

 

[skyhigh]

I've been to scotland a long time ago, cornwall twice, through Europe on numerous services though france and spain, and even one in Morocco. How many have you been on?

As I estimated earlier in the thread, roughly 50 trips across Europe and Scandinavia.

I've spent most of my adult life working in rail in various roles. I enjoy a good sleeper and have done plenty just to enjoy the journey. I would love to see more run but affordable UK-Europe sleeper services are never going to happen in my lifetime.

When someone raises a legitimate issue your answer often seems to be along the lines of "I don't know how but that shouldn't be an issue". Surely as a business owner you understand that not everything is realistically possible?

 

[JamesT]

Why can't you have 3 bunks? Because of height restrictions? OBB seem to stack sleeping booths quite effectively.

The UK infamously has an extremely small loading gauge, both width and height. If you're running outside of HS1 then you're restricted by that. See threads past on this forum around the sleeper and various people's suggestions for alternative layouts.

Next-generation Railjets enter service to link three countries

EUROPE: Austrian Federal Railways has put into service the first of its updated Railjet trainsets on services linking Germany, Austria and Italy. Toma Bačić rode on a preview run between München and Verona on April 5. EUROPE: Austrian Federal Railways has put its second-generation Railjet...

www.railwaygazette.com

245m Euro order. It doesn't fit your narrative, but there it is.

So that article says 23 sets, then says a set is 9 carriages long. So 207 carriages in total for your €245m. The Mark 5s for the Caledonian Sleeper cost €200m for 75 carriages.

 

[RT4038]

ÖBB night-trains will have “pods” for solo travellers from December on

Austria’s national railway company, ÖBB, is set to introduce a new fleet of 33 night trains in December 2023. Among the various enhancements offered, a distinctive feature is…

www.railtech.com

How much are 33 trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==



The detail isn't the important bit here, it is the direction of travel.

So, a state owned organisation, and no indication at this point as to whether this investment will yield any financial return, and will not be a lemon to be paid for by Austrian taxpayers? So hardly an endorsement yet for others to go out spending money, especially with our experience (and that of many other state run railways) of our existing operations. Strange that most other state railways in Europe have eliminated or minimised their sleeper operations, and are not actively seeking to 'invest' at present. Maybe they are looking on at how OBB fare for the medium term?

 

[Mgameing123]

I think Mgameing123 is right to start from a position considering demand. If the demand is there, and the pricing is feasible (big IFs as we know), then setup costs can be solved one way or another. Some kind of EU treaty on rail travel could help, but IDk what that might look like. We are all signed up to cutting carbon emissions. Investing money into it makes sense.

I mean we all know how much us Brits love going to Spain

 

[SleeperMission]

As I estimated earlier in the thread, roughly 50 trips across Europe and Scandinavia.

I've spent most of my adult life working in rail in various roles. I enjoy a good sleeper and have done plenty just to enjoy the journey. I would love to see more run but affordable UK-Europe sleeper services are never going to happen in my lifetime.

When someone raises a legitimate issue your answer often seems to be along the lines of "I don't know how but that shouldn't be an issue". Surely as a business owner you understand that not everything is realistically possible?

Oh no! Quite the opposite. Having set up businesses from nothing, it is vital to understand, but not be perturbed by nay-sayers. People resist change. And always tell you things are not possible. When more often than not, there is a way. There is always a way. This cock-sure approach must always come from confidence in the fundamentals. In this instance, it is that humans have to change the way they travel and pollute, and short-haul air travel across land brings trains and existing rail networks back into play. I don't think it is easy to achieve pan-European sleeper services. But I don't think anyone would claim it is technologically impossible either. It is proven technology if nothing else.

The three barriers to resolve are: political will, logistics for border checks, and services being profitable.

 

[signed]

Strange that most other state railways in Europe have eliminated or minimised their sleeper operations

In one case it's the government making extremely misguided decisions.

The French gov vowed to kill them all (apart from one or two services) by 2014, and killed quite a lot (along with the scrapping of 400 perfectly good coaches).

Until 2017 when the Macron gov reinstated quite a few lines in haste as part of Political show, when they realized the lines had demand.

Those lines are very much popular on weekends, holidays and (especially) bank holidays and it's on the table that more domestic workings may be resurected even though there is a massive lack of stock now.

You want to arrive in Toulouse before 9, you need to take the sleeper, you want to arrive in Nice (or even Marseille in some cases) before 10, you need the sleeper...

 

[SynthD]

services being profitable.

Sketch out a business plan using real numbers, not optimism. For instance, I believe the HS1 rates are public. So far, we don’t understand how this barrier is resolvable. Do you know how much subsidy it will require?

 

[RT4038]

In one case it's the government making extremely misguided decisions.

The French gov vowed to kill them all (apart from one or two services) by 2014, and killed quite a lot (along with the scrapping of 400 perfectly good coaches).

Until 2017 when the Macron gov reinstated quite a few lines in haste as part of Political show, when they realized the lines had demand.

Those lines are very much popular on weekends, holidays and (especially) bank holidays and it's on the table that more domestic workings may be resurected even though there is a massive lack of stock now.

You want to arrive in Toulouse before 9, you need to take the sleeper, you want to arrive in Nice (or even Marseille in some cases) before 10, you need the sleeper...

However, these are only couchette cars, not sleeper cars, and pretty basic. More to the point, there may be demand on weekends, holidays and (especially) bank holidays, but is that enough to pay for the staff required, the operation of the trains, the locomotives and the times when there isn't enough demand plus investment in replacement carriages when the current old stuff reaches the end of its working life? Now, for a domestic operation, there may be some case to be made for subsidy for such services. But for international leisure services .... I don't see how that could possibly stack up.

The French railways are showing no signs of 'investing' in International sleeper services, or Sleeping Cars.

 

[ac6000cw]

I mean we all know how much us Brits love going to Spain

Which is of course very largely a creation of, and dependent on, low-cost air travel (originally based on charter flights flown by the likes of Dan-Air from the late 1950s onwards). A lot of that market isn't likely to transfer to lengthy, expensive train journeys, it'll just evaporate if air travel gets too expensive.