UK General Election 2024

[Bayum]

I can see where Tennant is coming from and the context within which this was said. The point he was clearly making was that Badenoch herself is vilifying the trans debate when people should be free to live their lives without fear of being denounced by the right wing. Let’s face it. Badenoch has been horrific with what she has said and the inaction towards the trans community as equalities minister speaks volumes.

 

[nw1]

Labour were unelectable in 1979, 1983, 1987, 2017/19 when they lost the centre ground .
They also ran out of ideas in 2010, despite being competent in government.
There are also other parties with different offers, and they all change over time.

Were they really unelectable in 1987?

They were surely pretty middle-of-the-road then, but I guess a significant proportion of the adult population was in love with Thatcherism and, like 1983, the anti-Thatcher vote was split.

Remember this was the time of Clause 28, which was far more extreme than anything on the 1987 Labour manifesto, I suspect.

And in 2017 - they came close to winning. Some of us would also argue that Corbyn in 2019 was a good deal less bad than Johnson!

 

[Kaliwax]

I think Suella Braverman will put a bid in for the next Tory Leader, along with Kemi, will that split the far right tories? Thats if they retain their seats. I imagine the more moderate Tories would go for someone like Penny Mordaunt?

 

[nw1]

I think Suella Braverman will put a bid in for the next Tory Leader, along with Kemi, will that split the far right tories? Thats if they retain their seats. I imagine the more moderate Tories would go for someone like Penny Mordaunt?

The Tories really need to vote in someone moderate (Mordaunt is, relatively speaking) if they want to win next time.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can see where Tennant is coming from and the context within which this was said. The point he was clearly making was that Badenoch herself is vilifying the trans debate when people should be free to live their lives without fear of being denounced by the right wing.

But I would say that itself is a misrepresentation of what people like Kemi Badenoch say. Indeed to my mind, one of the things that made David Tennant's comments even worse was that just prior to his well-publicised wish for Kemi Badenoch not to exist, he was basically saying a bunch of outright lies about what gender-critical people believe. To be clear, Badenoch has to my knowledge never either said or implied that trans people shouldn't be free to live their lives. But she has repeatedly pointed out that where there's a conflict between the needs of trans people and the needs of other groups (such as women), then the needs of those groups need to be respected too. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that. We do after all live in a society where you have to balance the needs of different groups - which usually means that no one group gets everything it would ideally like to have.

 

[edwin_m]

I think Suella Braverman will put a bid in for the next Tory Leader, along with Kemi, will that split the far right tories? Thats if they retain their seats. I imagine the more moderate Tories would go for someone like Penny Mordaunt?

Their election rules make vote-splitting nearly impossible (a privilege they deny to the rest of us). In successive ballots of MPs the one who comes last is eliminated, until only two remain to go to a vote of the membership. That way, if two people with similar views and backing stand, one of them will be eliminated and the other will presumably pick up their votes in the next round.

If it comes to a choice between a relative moderate and a relative extremist, the membership are likely to choose the latter as they did with Truss over Sunak. Sunak only got in because the MPs decided he was the only vaguely acceptable choice and rigged the system by raising the nomination threshold to 100 and having the alternative candidate step down (can't even remember who it was - *checks* Mordaunt - and Johnson also decided not to stand despite claiming he had enough support). Just think - instead of 18 months of Sunak we could have ended up with someone even worse...

The Tories really need to vote in someone moderate (Mordaunt is, relatively speaking) if they want to win next time.

As above, unlikely unless the membership is so spooked that they reverse their previous behaviour. Pretty much by definition, memberships are more radical on average than the party's MPs or floating voters, so are very likely to go for the most extreme choice (see also: Corbyn).

 

[Senex]

There hasn't been an Education Secretary who has worked in the UK education system since Estelle Morris (Labour, 2001-2002) and before her Gillian Shepherd (Cons, 1994-1997). There have been 15 EdSecs since then, and although Ed Balls and Ruth Kelly did have some teaching experience, they were in universities abroad.

We don't have any tradition in this country of ministers needing to know anything about the sectors they're in charge of (if they did, that might be too much of a threat to Sir Humphrey and his colleagues). It's not just education — transport's almost an equally bad example of lots of people not knowing much about the job and staying for only a short time.

 

[brad465]

Wasn't it more the other way around? Tennant making a speech at an awards hoping that Kemi Badenoch didn't exist?

I read it as wishing her position didn't exist. However, whatever he meant and/or the context, he used a very poor choice of words.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2024 ==

This is what the BBC are reporting he said:

Rishi Sunak backs Kemi Badenoch in David Tennant row

The prime minister says Tennant is "the problem" after the actor says Ms Badenoch should "shut up".

www.bbc.co.uk

In his acceptance speech he said: "If I'm honest I'm a little depressed by the fact that acknowledging that everyone has the right to be who they want to be and live their life how they want to live it as long as they're not hurting anyone else should merit any kind of special award or special mention, because it's common sense, isn't it?"

He said it was "human decency", adding: "We shouldn't live in a world where that is worth remarking on.

"However, until we wake up and Kemi Badenoch doesn't exist any more - I don't wish ill of her, I just wish her to shut up - whilst we do live in this world, I am honoured to receive this."

 

[nw1]

I see the BBC is now reporting this.

Rishi Sunak backs Kemi Badenoch in David Tennant row

The prime minister says Tennant is "the problem" after the actor says Ms Badenoch should "shut up".

www.bbc.co.uk

I see Sunak is now saying of Tennant:

"If you’re calling for women to shut up and wishing they didn’t exist, you are the problem."

David Tennant did not say this at any time. To me this sounds like Sunak is libelling Tennant by putting words into Tennant's mouth and falsely accusing him of being a misogynist, and if I were Tennant I would be consulting my lawyers.

Tennant was absolutely not attacking Badenoch for her gender, but for her attitudes towards trans rights.

 

[birchesgreen]

In protest Sunak will never watch Star Wars again.

 

[takno]

I read it as wishing her position didn't exist. However, whatever he meant and/or the context, he used a very poor choice of words.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2024 ==

This is what the BBC are reporting he said:

Rishi Sunak backs Kemi Badenoch in David Tennant row

The prime minister says Tennant is "the problem" after the actor says Ms Badenoch should "shut up".

www.bbc.co.uk

I think he meant it as it read, and indeed given Badenochs many unhelpful, intemperant and frankly unreasonable forays into the argument, I tend to agree with him.

It's an important issue that deserves an intelligent debate, and I don't think Badenoch is actually interested in it beyond it's opportunities for playground-style bullying. That doesn't benefit people trying to express concerns, it just purely acts to make a minority feel excluded.

Frankly I don't think Tennant's input on the topic is particularly insightful or temperate either, but his reasons for becoming involved in the conversations are more personal, and when he speaks it isn't as somebody setting government policy.

Either way, I can't see it making a any difference to the election. People who care about the topic will likely already have made their mind up

 

[nw1]

In protest Sunak will never watch Star Wars again.

lol

 

[Bayum]

But I would say that itself is a misrepresentation of what people like Kemi Badenoch say. Indeed to my mind, one of the things that made David Tennant's comments even worse was that just prior to his well-publicised wish for Kemi Badenoch not to exist, he was basically saying a bunch of outright lies about what gender-critical people believe. To be clear, Badenoch has to my knowledge never either said or implied that trans people shouldn't be free to live their lives. But she has repeatedly pointed out that where there's a conflict between the needs of trans people and the needs of other groups (such as women), then the needs of those groups need to be respected too. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that. We do after all live in a society where you have to balance the needs of different groups - which usually means that no one group gets everything it would ideally like to have.

She met with an anti-trans group, referred disparagingly to trans men as transsexuals and lauded that lesbian and gay men have the ability to get married and that the trans community were pushing for better rights for themselves. She repeatedly refused to make conversion therapy illegal and has done extremely little in continuing these plans she says are still being scrutinised. Finally, she has continually criticised EDI policies, particularly those that provide further support to LGBTQ+ peoples because they, according to her, divide rather than bring people together. I agree that Kemi has been a vocal proponent for women but I would argue that the only reason she does so is because she recognises it as a way of weaponising the against the trans community.

 

[m0ffy]

She met with an anti-trans group, referred disparagingly to trans men as transsexuals and lauded that lesbian and gay men have the ability to get married and that the trans community were pushing for better rights for themselves. She repeatedly refused to make conversion therapy illegal and has done extremely little in continuing these plans she says are still being scrutinised. Finally, she has continually criticised EDI policies, particularly those that provide further support to LGBTQ+ peoples because they, according to her, divide rather than bring people together. I agree that Kemi has been a vocal proponent for women but I would argue that the only reason she does so is because she recognises it as a way of weaponising the against the trans community.

Exactly this. Badenoch is a fascist and she belongs in prison for her continued incitement to violence against queer people.

 

[birchesgreen]

Exactly this. Badenoch is a fascist and she belongs in prison for her continued incitement to violence against queer people.

Well i think calling her a fascist is a bit strong (and an overused term) but her views are pretty unpleasant and hopefully soon will be consigned to the bin of history.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wonder if the next Tory leader will be a moderate or a far right tory.

They are all far-right now, to different degrees.
The "moderates" (one-nation Tories) were mostly booted out during/after the Brexit votes in parliament.

 

[AlterEgo]

She met with an anti-trans group, referred disparagingly to trans men as transsexuals and lauded that lesbian and gay men have the ability to get married and that the trans community were pushing for better rights for themselves. She repeatedly refused to make conversion therapy illegal and has done extremely little in continuing these plans she says are still being scrutinised. Finally, she has continually criticised EDI policies, particularly those that provide further support to LGBTQ+ peoples because they, according to her, divide rather than bring people together. I agree that Kemi has been a vocal proponent for women but I would argue that the only reason she does so is because she recognises it as a way of weaponising the against the trans community.

Yes. She is a transphobe. If one agrees with Badenoch's views, it makes one a transphobe. It is quite simple.

Transphobia is one of the last acceptable forms of bigotry in British society, but hopefully not for much longer.

She'll be out of government soon and we should be thankful for that.

 

[Kaliwax]

Yes. She is a transphobe. It is quite simple.

Transphobia is one of the last acceptable forms of bigotry in British society, but hopefully not for much longer.

She'll be out of government soon and we should be thankful for that.

I hope she can take Lee Anderson out with her as well, he's certainly the nastiest politician, I've seen come across in my life time

 

[Busaholic]

Indeed. I just checked it out. This spat started after David Tennant in a public speech said: "Until we wake up and Kemi Badenoch doesn't exist any more (crowd cheers) (pause) I don't wish ill of her I just wish her to shut up"

Imagine if a public figure had said the same thing about Diane Abbott - there'd be an outcry! The Tories have done pretty bad things during this campaign and personally I hope they lose the election badly - but I think on this one, they are quite right to call David Tennant out.

There's a video of Tennant's remarks at about 00:40 seconds into this:

(And sorry, I know it's a biased news source, but it's the only video of the actual speech I could find on a quick Google)

I don't remember GB News telling Laurence Fox to stick to acting, Oh, thinking about it, I can see why: he's crap at that too.

We don't need to imagine the things said publically about Diane Abbott - Tory donor Frank Hester said he thought she should be shot, but he's faced no sanctions nor did the Tories choose to return any of the millions. Tennant chose his words carefully and made it clear they were only aimed at Badenoch, whereas Hester said 'she makes you hate all black women.'

You seem to have a view that politicians, particularly Tory ones in the recent past, are fragile creatures who are likely to crumble if anyone boos at them. I say, bring the boos on, the poor defenceless dears have created a fabulous system for themselves at Westminster at the expense of the taxpayer with ever greater perks. Their working hours have got less and less over the years, and collectively they need a good kick up the arse.

 

[Kaliwax]

GB News are probably the biggest hypocrites there is, they suspend a presenter in their first few months because a presenter doesn't agree with their views. Bring guests on who have a different view to be humiliated in a 3 vs 1 fight, 3 right-wingers vs 1 centrist. Some of the worst people I've ever seen on British TV on that channel.

 

[Highview]

Croydon Trams are going to be affected by a Unite Union strike (tram engineers) immediately after the general election (the same time as the Wimbledon Tennis Championship) - this will, I assume, be the first test of the next Government's attitude/position on (some) transport workers pay claims.

 

[nw1]

Yes. She is a transphobe. If one agrees with Badenoch's views, it makes one a transphobe. It is quite simple.

Transphobia is one of the last acceptable forms of bigotry in British society, but hopefully not for much longer.

She'll be out of government soon and we should be thankful for that.

I think what's particularly unpleasant about Badenoch is the way she appears to have brought gender, race and social class into the argument - completely unprovoked - in order to make it seem that she has the moral high ground.

Yet David Tennant never mentioned any of these three attributes of Badenoch or indeed anyone else. It's quite unlike that case where someone directed racist abuse towards Kwasi Kwarteng, for example.

He was standing up for trans rights, no more, no less. Nothing else.

It seems to me that Badenoch is trying to twist the whole situation to make it out that Tennant is the prejudiced person, rather than her.

At the end of the day, it's just part of the Tory right's culture war towards liberal celebrities (see also: Gary Lineker).

 

[Kaliwax]

If it was Laurence Fox at the BBC spouting his views off, I guarantee right-wingers wouldn't be demanding him to be sacked they would be saying what a man he is, he speaks his mind, but because Gary Lineker is a liberal right wingers, will demand for him to be sacked.

 

[Busaholic]

If it was Laurence Fox at the BBC spouting his views off, I guarantee right-wingers wouldn't be demanding him to be sacked they would be saying what a man he is, he speaks his mind, but because Gary Lineker is a liberal right wingers, will demand for him to be sacked.

I think you mean Lineker is a left winger?

 

[The Ham]

To counter - i don't understand how you can be a floating voter. To me it shows a lack of conviction, interest or beliefs. I know what I believe and I know the Tories will never deliver that so I will never, ever vote for them.

As a PS - i didn't vote for Corbyn. I couldn't. He wasn't a serious person. I spoiled my papers.

Parties change, so one-to-one who decided to view Tory because of Dave, but now doesn't want to because of who's come after may not have changed where they stand.

I think you mean Lineker is a left winger?

I thought he was a centre forward...

 

[jfollows]

To counter - i don't understand how you can be a floating voter. To me it shows a lack of conviction, interest or beliefs. I know what I believe and I know the Tories will never deliver that so I will never, ever vote for them.

Things change.

Ask me in 1984 and I’d have said I’d never vote Labour. I voted Labour in 2019 and 2024. But maybe Conservative and Labour changed more than I did over 40 years?

 

[Kaliwax]

I think you mean Lineker is a left winger?

Yes that what I mean

 

[AlterEgo]

To counter - i don't understand how you can be a floating voter. To me it shows a lack of conviction, interest or beliefs. I know what I believe and I know the Tories will never deliver that so I will never, ever vote for them.

Some people have principles that aren't delivered by any core party and have to suck up a lot of compromise when they are casting a ballot. I'm an ABC (Anyone but Conservative...and anyone to the right of them) myself, but every election I have different priorities.

Right now, I'd say those are:

- Reconfiguring the "deal" most people get from the state
- Better rights for carers
- Diplomatic pressure for two state solution in Palestine
- Self-ID and the removal of inhumane medical gatekeeping for trans people
- Rail electrification and decarbonisation
- Closer integration with Europe

...so I am voting Lib Dem. I didn't last time, and I might not next time.

 

[nw1]

Things change.

Ask me in 1984 and I’d have said I’d never vote Labour. I voted Labour in 2019 and 2024. But maybe Conservative and Labour changed more than I did over 40 years?

Indeed, I know several people who voted for Cameron's Tories in 2010 but now absolutely would not.

 

[Kaliwax]

I know people too who voted for Cameron, but are now voting for Labor this time around. They lost all trust in the tories when Boris was in charge.