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UK General Election 2024

Now that we are in the final throes of the campaign, who will you be voting for?

  • Labour

    Votes: 104 49.5%
  • Conservative

    Votes: 8 3.8%
  • Reform

    Votes: 18 8.6%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 57 27.1%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 15 7.1%
  • SNP

    Votes: 4 1.9%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Independent

    Votes: 3 1.4%

  • Total voters
    210
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ainsworth74

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The best post-war PM in my view.
Point of order! Clement Atlee became Prime Minister on 26 July 1945, but Japan didn't surrender until 15 August, therefore he is a wartime Prime Minister <:D

(But I quite agree he was a heck of a PM and if we could have one of even half his calibre now we'd be in far less bother than we are)
 
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Halwynd

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Point of order! Clement Atlee became Prime Minister on 26 July 1945, but Japan didn't surrender until 15 August, therefore he is a wartime Prime Minister <:D

(But I quite agree he was a heck of a PM and if we could have one of even half his calibre now we'd be in far less bother than we are)

You've got me there...!
 

Magdalia

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I have never ever heard of Attlee being described as a managerialist, I'm guessing in part due to the fact the term didn't exist at the time and that style of governance wasn't even a thing until the 1980s. Implementing the postwar consensus in the way that he did is almost the opposite of managerialism - it was extremely popular, concentrated on public service, was driven by the masses, and receptive to their wants and needs.
One of the key features of management is leading and delivering change, Attlee did both of those.


That's like coming into a kitchen, seeing the previous chef has prepared a giant turd pie, and you deciding to put it in the oven because sure why not? Why bother spoiling all that good work? Much better than starting again.
A cornerstone of change management is that you can only start from where you are now. Starting again is not an option.

The kitchen analogy is absurd.

Um, no, Attlee's government was the most radical ever in British parliamentary history. Starmer's won't be.
You don't know that. You're right that Starmer's manifesto, on the face of it, does not look very radical, in comparison to 1945, but judgement needs to be on actions not words.
 

Gloster

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I would have thought that the crucial difference is that the two Conservative candidates, one through her husband, were using inside information and that is very naughty, as well as being illegal. Betting on something that you have no control over or inside information about is not, in general, illegal: it is b. stupid, though.
 

Kaliwax

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Our local candidates just seem to attack each other rather than focus on what they can do to help the constituents.
 

jon0844

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I can't see a major issue with betting on yourself to win, but I'd be a little concerned with betting against - in that you might then have an incentive to throw things and lose.

It isn't quite the same thing though, as you don't know the outcome as against the election date which they did know and nobody else did.
 

AlterEgo

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One of the key features of management is leading and delivering change, Attlee did both of those.
That is not what managerialism is.

Managerialism is a political philosophy dealing in the supremacy of existing organisational structures over responding to the needs of individual citizens, usually in prioritising KPIs and the like. Institutional failure in a managerialist cultiure is characterised by wishing to get rid of whoever was in charge and replacing the bad manager with a good one, rather than asking whether the institution needs to change, be replaced, or even exist at all.

A cornerstone of change management is that you can only start from where you are now.
...and not change anything?

Starting again is not an option.

The kitchen analogy is absurd.
No it isn't. Things are terrible now, and the way the country is set up - in the vestiges of neoliberalism - is wrong. It is not serving people well.

We have not recovered at all from the financial crash 16 years ago. Productivity is flat, wages are in decline in real terms, people are and feel poorer. Our health outcomes are in reverse. The idea that the Tories were only bad custodians of a system which ought to otherwise be benevolent to us is so far off base that I despair.


You don't know that. You're right that Starmer's manifesto, on the face of it, does not look very radical, in comparison to 1945, but judgement needs to be on actions not words.
Well it's before the election, I think I am quite entitled to look at the absolute lack of ambition in the manifesto and judge it on those merits, assuming he delivers those rather limited promises. I doubt you will find anyone thinking his ministry will match the radicalism of Attlee.
 

HSTEd

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A cornerstone of change management is that you can only start from where you are now. Starting again is not an option.

The kitchen analogy is absurd.
Is it absurd?

The labour manifesto offers no meaningful break with current policies on any areas that actually matter.

It simply offers to change the personalities at the top but continue with the same conception of the state, economy and politics that got us here.

1945 and 1979 represented fundamental breaks with the status quo, Starmer offers nothing of the sort.

Housing policy back a handful of years but fundamentally unchanged, energy and utilities fundamentally unchanged, transport policy fundamentally unchanged (beyond some window-dressing).
Taxation and welfare policy fundamentally unchanged (miserly for anyone but pensioners), education policy fundamentally unchanged. Industrial policy unchanged except for a couple billion extra propping up a primary steel capability that would be useless in a crisis (no suitable ore).

And like the IFS says, it just assumes magical growth will appear because Starmer is prime minister, even though very little will have changed
 

The Ham

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Can't help thinking they need to change their name to something a bit more representative of their strident stance in this area. For those who remember the 80s SDP, continuing to use the name is a bit misleading.

I'm sure others may think the same about other parties...
 

Busaholic

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Is it illegal to bet on yourself losing? I can understand the insider knowledge nature of the Tory bets being a concern but the Labour one?
If you're taking part in a race or other contest and you bet on yourself or your team to lose (e.g. a jockey or a footballer) it is potentially illegal as you may be implying you're not putting in a real effort. Those in such jobs have found they get banned if proven. After all, the general public can bet on those events too and they may feel they're being cheated. It may be the case that in this instance it's not in direct contravention of existing law, but I'd be prepared to bet that loophole will get shut down soon into the new Parliament! ;)
 

52290

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To let it be known that you have placed a bet on you losing will only increase the chances of you winning your bet.
 

SuspectUsual

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This is basic politics - whether that’s the politics of home, work, parenting or anything else. Before doing something think “how might someone who doesn’t like me make this look?”
 

3141

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Keir Starmer has taken a massive risk by suspending his candidate Kevin Craig for betting against himself in the coming election. Because it is widely believed that betting by candidates on themselves is rife. As yet the Gambling Commission has not trawled the bookies for info on bets like Craig’s. I understand the Commission identified his wager by accident. But if the Commission now requests that data from the betting companies, this could turn into a scandal on the scale of the MPs’ expenses scandal. And it won’t just be Tory MPs tarnished. I am told Labour, LibDem and Reform MPs all engage in this kind of punt. GambleGate, or whatever on earth it’s called, will now run all the way to the election and beyond - with who knows what harm to which parties and which politicians

Robert Peston reporting that candidates betting on themselves is “rife”. Now I assume (maybe wrongly) that most will be backing themselves to win, but probably not all.
Betting on yourself, to win or to lose, is in a different category from using insider knowledge as the basis for a bet. I don't see much wrong with a bet on your own performance in the polls. Very few serious candidates, if any, would let the fact that they've placed a bet affect how actively they campaigned. If you're a candidate for Parliament your ego is likely to be big enough that you'll do everything you can to win, especially in a political atmosphere like today's. Would anyone care if the Monster Raving Looney Party candidate bet on himself?

However, keeping this issue going, and stirring it up to get more out of it, is what Robert Peston and the media generally love to do, rather than focus on serious issues about our next government.
 

edwin_m

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At Oddschecker, the best odds for him to win the seat are 4-1, with 1-4 for Labour, so he will probably be looking for a job soon.
Or he might just put a big bet on himself losing, and somewhat offset his loss of MP's salary.
You've got me there...!
However, Attlee did continue as PM after VJ day, so he could fairly be considered a post-war PM too.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Betting on yourself, to win or to lose, is in a different category from using insider knowledge as the basis for a bet. I don't see much wrong with a bet on your own performance in the polls. Very few serious candidates, if any, would let the fact that they've placed a bet affect how actively they campaigned.

I'd agree. It's hard to see what he's done really wrong here, other than that betting on yourself losing looks pretty silly. It's the kind of thing that I can imagine people would think is a good joke, or a way to get a small consolation prize if you lose, but but it's going to look bad to the public. It doesn't seem unethical though as you're not using any insider knowledge - EXCEPT that if you've placed the bet after studying your canvas returns then I'm not sure if that would be considered an issue (I'm not really sure what the rules of betting are in this regard?).
 

HSTEd

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This is likely to be particularly sensitive for the labour party given previous accusations of various people in positions of authority within the party conspiring to deliberately lose elections.
 

bspahh

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I'd agree. It's hard to see what he's done really wrong here, other than that betting on yourself losing looks pretty silly. It's the kind of thing that I can imagine people would think is a good joke, or a way to get a small consolation prize if you lose, but but it's going to look bad to the public. It doesn't seem unethical though as you're not using any insider knowledge - EXCEPT that if you've placed the bet after studying your canvas returns then I'm not sure if that would be considered an issue (I'm not really sure what the rules of betting are in this regard?).
He should have known better. Kevin Craig's LinkedIn profile says he has "25 years in PR, Crisis, Public Affairs". He is the CEO of a Public Relations and Communications Services company.

The criminal offence would be section 42 of the Gambling Act 2005

Cheating​

(1)A person commits an offence if he—

(a)cheats at gambling, or

(b)does anything for the purpose of enabling or assisting another person to cheat at gambling.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) it is immaterial whether a person who cheats—

(a)improves his chances of winning anything, or

(b)wins anything.

(3)Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) cheating at gambling may, in particular, consist of actual or attempted deception or interference in connection with—

(a)the process by which gambling is conducted, or

(b)a real or virtual game, race or other event or process to which gambling relates.

This article from a law professor says:
... the (Gambling) Commission has the power to void bets accepted by licensed operators that involve misuse of inside information (under section 336 of the Gambling Act 2005). The Commission can also take forward prosecutions for cheating, although this is a power it expressly commits to use very rarely. It prefers to work with the Crown Prosecution Service (or its Scottish equivalent) and the police on prosecutions. The Commission is unlikely to proceed independently with a criminal investigation unless there are exceptional circumstances (for example, the need to set a legal precedent).

I doubt they want to set a legal precedent with a case like this.
 

Magdalia

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1945 and 1979 represented fundamental breaks with the status quo, Starmer offers nothing of the sort.
In one sense you are right. The Truss/Kwarteng mini-budget showed what happens when governments in lots of debt try to break the economic orthodoxy imposed by the international bond markets. Since then it has not been an option for the UK.

Economic stability does not sound radical but it is a key first step to reducing the cost of interest on the National Debt (the moron premium) and to open up the possibility of more borrowing in future. That provides the initial headroom, not available currently, to fund other policies.

We have not recovered at all from the financial crash 16 years ago. Productivity is flat, wages are in decline in real terms, people are and feel poorer.
Absolutely. And the only way out is to restore economic growth, by shifting to a high wage high productivity economy.

And like the IFS says, it just assumes magical growth will appear because Starmer is prime minister, even though very little will have changed

Magical growth will appear if the incoming government can convince economic forecasters that growth is coming. In the short term it won't be necessary for the growth to actually happen, the important thing is for it to be in the economic forecasts. In particular the new government will need to convince the economic forecasters in the Office for Budget Responsibility, as part of the budget setting process. Once better economic growth forecasts are delivered by the Office for Budget Responsibility, that further increases the headroom to fund other policies.


Housing policy back a handful of years but fundamentally unchanged, energy and utilities fundamentally unchanged, transport policy fundamentally unchanged (beyond some window-dressing).
Taxation and welfare policy fundamentally unchanged (miserly for anyone but pensioners), education policy fundamentally unchanged. Industrial policy unchanged except for a couple billion extra propping up a primary steel capability that would be useless in a crisis (no suitable ore).

Well it's before the election, I think I am quite entitled to look at the absolute lack of ambition in the manifesto and judge it on those merits, assuming he delivers those rather limited promises. I doubt you will find anyone thinking his ministry will match the radicalism of Attlee.


That's what you see. It is what the international bond markets see, and what the economic forecasters see, that matters. But convincing the international bond markets and the economic forecasters can only be done by winning the general election first.

I'm not old enough to have been around in 1945, but I do remember 1979. At the time of the 1979 election there was very little indication of what is in retrospect regarded as radical change, which started with the 1981 budget and mostly didn't happen until after the 1983 election. Mrs Thatcher offering a radical inspirational vision is not how I remember the 1979 election.
 

HSTEd

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In one sense you are right. The Truss/Kwarteng mini-budget showed what happens when governments in lots of debt try to break the economic orthodoxy imposed by the international bond markets. Since then it has not been an option for the UK.

Economic stability does not sound radical but it is a key first step to reducing the cost of interest on the National Debt (the moron premium) and to open up the possibility of more borrowing in future. That provides the initial headroom, not available currently, to fund other policies.
"Breaking with the status quo" is not necessarily the same as massive unfunded tax cuts, the problem we face now is that the spending programmed into the status quo has removed all available fiscal headroom. For example see the triple lock, which is essentially bleeding the state to death in slow motion.

It is certainly possible to break with the status quo without spending lots of additional money, especially in areas such as planning policy, the triple lock and the like.
Unfortunately, day to day spending is going to have to fall to allow for the accumulation of productive capital and the necessary increases in labour productivity.

Right now we have economic stability, but in the form of slow (but stable) economic decay.
Unless something radical happens now we risk a death spiral that starts slowly but steadily accelerates.

I know it is fashionable to blame everything on Liz Truss or Brexit, but the current total stagnation has lasted since 2008. Real GDP per capita has essentially not moved since.

Absolutely. And the only way out is to restore economic growth, by shifting to a high wage high productivity economy.
But nothing in the manifesto is likely to lead to that.
It's just a bunch of the status quo, complete with continuation of huge and unaffordable fiscal transfers. Added to that is the continuation with the systems that have failed repeatedly for the last 30 years (transport, energy, utilities, take your pick).

Magical growth will appear if the incoming government can convince economic forecasters that growth is coming. In the short term it won't be necessary for the growth to actually happen, the important thing is for it to be in the economic forecasts. In particular the new government will need to convince the economic forecasters in the Office for Budget Responsibility, as part of the budget setting process. Once better economic growth forecasts are delivered by the Office for Budget Responsibility, that further increases the headroom to fund other policies.
Bond markets do not blindly believe what the OBR says, they will do their own analysis indepedently of them.

If you want them to not panic, it is not enough to convince the OBR to change its forecast to say that more headroom exists, you have to convince the bond vigilantes.
The bond markets do not believe that Starmer will deliver significant upside to economic growth.
That's what you see. It is what the international bond markets see, and what the economic forecasters see, that matters. But convincing the international bond markets and the economic forecasters can only be done by winning the general election first.
The problem is, the things he is saying to win the election will ensure that no significant change can happen.
He has decided to pack his majority in the short term by promising a continuation of policies that absolutely must be abandoned if the UK is to recover from the economic decline.
He also has strongly managerialist tendencies (especially seen in his selection of underlings like Sue Grey) that strongly imply that he plans no major break with the status quo.

Now he might be lying, but if he tries to reverse course on this it will lead to the Labour Party's utter annihilation in 2029 from the backlash.
Starmer thinks like a lawyer who has spent decades flourishing within the current system, because that is what he is. This is not the mindset that will deliver a better UK.
 
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SynthD

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I know it is fashionable to blame everything on Liz Truss or Brexit, but the current total stagnation has lasted since 2008.
Since 2010. There was already recovery from the 2008 crash up to the start of austerity.
 

Magdalia

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the problem we face now is that the spending programmed into the status quo has removed all available fiscal headroom.
Economic growth creates that fiscal headroom.

I know it is fashionable to blame everything on Liz Truss or Brexit, but the current total stagnation has lasted since 2008. Real GDP per capita has essentially not moved since.
The blame for economic stagnation goes back a lot further than Truss, but it was Truss that changed the perception of the UK in the international bond markets.

Bond markets do not blindly believe what the OBR says, they will do their own analysis indepedently of them.

If you want them to not panic, it is not enough to convince the OBR to change its forecast to say that more headroom exists, you have to convince the bond vigilantes.
It does have to start with the Office for Budget Responsibility, because that's what creates the headroom in the budget setting process. You're right that the international bond markets won't just follow what the OBR says, which is why convincing the OBR is necessary but not sufficient.

The bond markets do not believe that Starmer will deliver significant upside to economic growth.
So it is about changing their minds. We will start to get hints on that at the time of the first budget, the election result is almost certainly already priced into the market. But the key factor will be establishing a positive track record. Writing a manifesto doesn't create a positive track record, but a manifesto full of unfunded spending commitments definitely creates a negative track record.

The problem is, the things he is saying to win the election will ensure that no significant change can happen.
That's where we differ. Here in the Fens I'm fortunate that I have a front row seat to watch rapid economic growth that is already happening, despite significant constraints. It is a warm morning so my windows are open and I can hear the building work going on outside. I can see that there is potential for much more of it. Cambridge needs more business space (especially laboratories), more water, more electricity, more transport infrastructure and more houses for more high wage, high productivity workers. There is huge potential for economic growth here, an opportunity that is there to be grasped, and I'm sure that Cambridge isn't the only place like that.

It will be hugely refreshing to have a government that wants to help economic growth to flourish, and to break the constraints that are preventing it from happening.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Point of order! Clement Atlee became Prime Minister on 26 July 1945, but Japan didn't surrender until 15 August, therefore he is a wartime Prime Minister <:D

(But I quite agree he was a heck of a PM and if we could have one of even half his calibre now we'd be in far less bother than we are)

Agreed ! - his importance is dwarfed of course by Churchill (on both sides) - scathing comments about "a modest man with much to be modest about" etc , but his legacy in times of financial challenges (to say the least) was very impressive.

Also "kept in touch" - no car and driver for him (apart from his wife Vi who one is led to believe was not a great driver !) but a regular commuter from Stanmore and later Great Missenden , and a regular on the 24 bus (which he described as very reliable) ,
 

dangie

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The longer this election campaigning drags on, the more unsure I am in who to vote for, or who not to vote for, or which party I wish to be the next government or which party I don’t wish to be the next government.

At first I wanted the Tories out and Labour in. Then I wanted the Tories out but not sure who I wanted in. Then I wasn’t sure if I wanted the Tories out and Labour in. Now I don’t know if I want anyone out or anyone in!

The only thing I’m quite sure of is whichever way I vote it will be a wrong vote. In this election I don’t think there is a right vote. Just which is the right wrong vote [confused - Rugeley]
 

PGAT

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Imagine screwing up so bad over 4/5 of the voters from all over the political spectrum all want you out
 

DarloRich

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The only thing I’m quite sure of is whichever way I vote it will be a wrong vote. In this election I don’t think there is a right vote. Just which is the right wrong vote
it is really simple: get the Tories out. That is the right vote. The Tories need yeeting into the sun.

Assuming Cannock Chase, Labour are best placed to do that.

PS always vote Labour ;)
 

skyhigh

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Interestingly had a flyer through the door for Labour this morning.

It wasn't for the right constituency (the flyer was for a completely different area quite a long way away) but at least they're trying....
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The best post-war PM in my view. For those so inclined, the book 'Citizen Clem' is worth a read. We don't have politicians of Attlee's calibre or ethics any more - even Margaret Thatcher said in her memoirs that she admired him as a man of substance.
Not wanting to denigrate Atlee's record, but his spell in office didn't end well.
Devaluation and endless rationing and inflation did for Labour in 1950/51, letting the Tories back in for 13 years.
He might have done better going slower on reform.
 

DarloRich

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Interestingly had a flyer through the door for Labour this morning.

It wasn't for the right constituency (the flyer was for a completely different area quite a long way away) but at least they're trying....
was it hand delivered or by Royal Mail? I have seen a few reports on the socials of peopel getting the wrong constituency flyers sent to them in the post.
 

dangie

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it is really simple: get the Tories out. That is the right vote. The Tories need yeeting into the sun…..

….PS always vote Labour ;)
The first part in this instance is possibly correct.

The second is extremely blinkered. I’m 73 and in my ‘voting career‘ I’ve been a floating voter. At each election I vote for whoever at that time I think is for the best. I’d guess that my Labour/Conservative totals are roughly equal. To constantly vote for the same party, whichever that party is, gets us nowhere. It needs floating voters to make a change.
 

takno

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Interestingly had a flyer through the door for Labour this morning.

It wasn't for the right constituency (the flyer was for a completely different area quite a long way away) but at least they're trying....
I imagine they're mostly printed relatively centrally - there aren't a lot of presses left in the country, and the days of running the leaflets off on a cheap duplicator in the constituency office are thankfully over. Unfortunately that's sometimes going to lead to the wrong people getting the wrong box. You'd hope that the people doing the delivering would notice, but they may have decided that the wrong leaflet is better than no leaflet
 
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