Two competing bids for London-Blackpool

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The extra Manchester-Chester service is expected to be an extension of a Northern Calder Vale service from Victoria with the existing ATW service extended to the Airport all day after Slade Lane Junction capacity improvements.

When are these Slade Lane Junction improvements scheduled for ? Will there be a great deal of disruption to both passenger and container freight services during that time ?

 

[merlodlliw]

You mean like the situation at Hull, with EC and HT sharing services?

As I see it, the DfT has essentially added Shrewsbury and Blackpool to the WC franchise map (it wasn't in the spec for the recently abandoned bids).

Correct neither was Wrexham, you may well be correct in seeing Blackpool & Shrewsbury in the new bidding map.

As for the Wrexham VT, I am convinced there was never a business case for it & the local MP Ian Lucas is very concerned it may well be dropped now that VT is starting the run from Shrewsbury, time will tell & after all Wrexham is only 12 miles from Chester's hourly VT London service,plus over 90% of the Wrexham VT pax are local commuters to Chester & beyond.
2015 when the line is redoubled with supposed extra ATW services into Chester will certainly change ideas.

 

[northwichcat]

But this isn't the case with Blackpool (or Barrow to some extent.) There are frequent and soon to become more frequent and faster services between BPN and Preston connecting with fast and frequent trains to EUS.

Well it's not bad for Euston itself but a lot of the trains between Preston and Euston only call at Wigan and Warrington.

Doing Blackpool to Crewe for instance at present isn't that attractive - arrive at Preston at xx:51 and depart at xx:19. Then Crewe is a major interchange - if you're doing Winsford to Blackpool, for instance, you need to double back via Crewe and the journey time can be as much as 2 hours 52 minutes, so the same sort of time that Euston to Blackpool takes with a change!
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When are these Slade Lane Junction improvements scheduled for ? Will there be a great deal of disruption to both passenger and container freight services during that time ?

I imagine it will coincide with the Ordsall Chord work with both being needed for the enhancement to Airport services proposed.

 

[tbtc]

All of which is great if everyone travels to or from the Manchester station that the direct train would go to/from, but what of those who travel further afield? And what of those who currently go to Victoria as it is closer to where they need to go, but would have to go to Piccadilly, or change at Salford Crescent, if it were "simplified"?

What if you were an Urmston resident who has to travel to Wigan everyday, but found the "simplified" service meant the train you had been getting now goes to Bolton and all the Wigan trains now go from Victoria. How would you feel about that?

How many people travel from Urmston to Wigan everyday though?

Rail is a mass transit system, it can't cater to every demand out there, so its better to concentrate on the busiest corridors.

Having a system where several places have alternative city centre termini (or stations) is just going to confuse people. Its a bit of fun for us enthusiasts to work out such permutations, but it just makes the railways too complicated for others.

As long as theres at least an hourly frequency I think most people doing medium-long distance travellers from say Southport would prefer a choice of destinations, on the way back if your that desperate to get home as fast as possible you can simply change at an intermediate station like Salford Crescent

Simply changing at an intermediate station like Salford Crescent for most commuters would mean boarding a busy rush hour train at Pic/Vic, changing at Salford and then boarding a second busy train (so fighting for a seat a second time)...

...and that's after you've maybe dealt with the tram from central Manchester to Pic/Vic too.

Knowing how many London tickets are currently sold from Blackpool is one thing, but predicting how much that will increase is quite another. I know various computer models are used by TOCs, NR and DaFT, but just how accurate are they? And is there any real evidence to suggest - on a route such as this with frequent services - that the (re-)introduction of through services actually generates extra passenger numbers?

One of the justifications given for direct London service is the supposed economic boost that it gives to places - since the lack of a direct London train is holding (insert provincial town name) back.

However there's little real evidence of any boost to Sunderland/ Hull/ Wrexham etc (as places) since they got direct London trains over the past decade - I remain unconvinced.

 

[northwichcat]

How many people travel from Urmston to Wigan everyday though?

Rail is a mass transit system, it can't cater to every demand out there, so its better to concentrate on the busiest corridors.

Having a system where several places have alternative city centre termini (or stations) is just going to confuse people. Its a bit of fun for us enthusiasts to work out such permutations, but it just makes the railways too complicated for others.

But is it really complicating the general public or actually making it easier for ones who chose to plan their journey opposed to those who just turn up at the station without bothering to check the timetable?

Imagine you're a day tripper from Southport who is attending an event at Manchester Central and then planning to do some shopping at the Arndale Centre afterwards - being able to arrive at Deansgate and depart from Victoria will be more convenient for you.

Then if you have a business employing a few hundred people in the Ardwick area of Manchester and offer your employees flexitime then an hourly service from Piccadilly and an hourly service from Victoria would probably suit more of your employees than 2tph from Victoria. 2tph from Piccadilly would be better but then a similar business in the Northern Quarter would lose out instead.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How many people travel from Urmston to Wigan everyday though?

Rail is a mass transit system, it can't cater to every demand out there, so its better to concentrate on the busiest corridors.

Having a system where several places have alternative city centre termini (or stations) is just going to confuse people. Its a bit of fun for us enthusiasts to work out such permutations, but it just makes the railways too complicated for others.....

The point of the Urmston example was to get you to realise that not everyone goes to/from Manchester and no further, a point you have clearly missed, I can't quote exact numbers for any particular example, but I know people do travel across or via Manchester on a regular basis.

Of course you can't please everyone, but look at the logic.

The people it does not currently cater for are those who insist on a concentrated more frequent service from one of the stations.

The people it does currently cater for are those who travel further afield, those who want a choice of stations to arrive in, for those who really don't care where they get to in Manchester just as long as they get there, those who want a direct train to Victoria (regardless of frequency) and those who want a direct train to Piccadilly/Oxford Road (regardless of frequency).

If services were concentrated on one station then you would alienate at least two of the groups currently catered for in order to appease the one group not currently catered for.

To decide if it is a good idea or not you would have to look at numbers and we don't have them, but I can't see how it would benefit more people than it would adversely effect.

 

[merlodlliw]

How many people travel from Urmston to Wigan everyday though?


However there's little real evidence of any boost to Sunderland/ Hull/ Wrexham etc (as places) since they got direct London trains over the past decade - I remain unconvinced.

It was good to see Wrexham on the boards at Marylebone while it lasted,& of course Euston now, I suppose it gives the town a boost,however what the benefit was to VT & Wrexham other than knocking a rival, Im not sure,
looks like Wrexham is going to get the Super Jail after all, has all other North Wales Counties have opted out, so that will generate many 100s of jobs and of course travel, Shrewsbury jail is soon to close.

link http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...s-plans-for-prison-in-wrexham-55578-33187403/ I can not deny the new road infrastructure to Wrexham Industrial Estate(One of Europe's largest industrial estates) is excellent & a few miles from the M56,pity the rail link does not exist any more,but if the jail is built it is bound to generate rail travel into the town

 

[Spaceflower]

How many people travel from Urmston to Wigan everyday though?

Rail is a mass transit system, it can't cater to every demand out there, so its better to concentrate on the busiest corridors.

Having a system where several places have alternative city centre termini (or stations) is just going to confuse people. Its a bit of fun for us enthusiasts to work out such permutations, but it just makes the railways too complicated for others.



Simply changing at an intermediate station like Salford Crescent for most commuters would mean boarding a busy rush hour train at Pic/Vic, changing at Salford and then boarding a second busy train (so fighting for a seat a second time)...

...and that's after you've maybe dealt with the tram from central Manchester to Pic/Vic too.



One of the justifications given for direct London service is the supposed economic boost that it gives to places - since the lack of a direct London train is holding (insert provincial town name) back.

However there's little real evidence of any boost to Sunderland/ Hull/ Wrexham etc (as places) since they got direct London trains over the past decade - I remain unconvinced.

Cheaper rail fares to its residents is one sure benefit of the increased competition and this is real, believe me. However, for a real economic boost these services need to be brought up to modern standards and speeds imo, for this is where theyre lacking and it isn't just the fault/responsibility of the TOC.

 

[Class 92]

Noticed this website http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/ is this going to be a new operator because its the first time I have heard about it.

 

[transportphoto]

It's been discussed over again on here as far as I can remember. I'll search for a thread or two.

Here's one... http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77496

TP

 

[yorkie]

It's been discussed over again on here as far as I can remember.

Indeed it has; I've merged it into a recent thread.

Class 92 - a tip: If you're struggling with the Search function on here, you may want to try Google specifying site:railforums.co.uk (Example - enough reading material to last for hours! )

 

[Impey0711]

So will this service be up and running by december 13th

 

[gordonthemoron]

I doubt it, they're only planning on starting in 2016

 

[pt_mad]

Virgin's bid for the WCML proposed additional calls at Nuneaton.

Virgin seem to be giving out mixed messages. Nuneaton lost its fast hourly services and now they are proposing more services in the next bid? I thought they said nothing else could be stopped there as it holds up the fasts for too long?

According to the Nuneaton Rail Group http://www.nbrug.org.uk/ Virgin have dropped Nuneaton as one of the stops for a potential Shrewsbury Service.

 

[WatcherZero]

Ive not yet heard Virgins reaction to this compromise path offering from NR, anyone else heard what they are going to do?

 

[The Planner]

They have got another week to respond yet.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Glad to see this thread re-invigorated, but was really hoping for more ideas on how the 'super' jail will boost rail use...

 

[Zoe]

Virgin seem to be giving out mixed messages. Nuneaton lost its fast hourly services and now they are proposing more services in the next bid?

Virgin proposed the additional calls at Nuneaton in the 2012 bid. Details of this are available at http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-re...oup-on-west-coast-bid-promises-167994836.html

New Services - our bid also proposes new direct services to Telford/Shrewsbury/Blackpool/Bolton but they would start a year earlier than FG. We would also double the frequency to Preston and increase calls to North Wales/Nuneaton/Milton Keynes and speed up journey times between Euston and Glasgow. In addition we would create new services to Stirling, Motherwell, Hartford, Liverpool South Parkway, and further enhance services for Gobowen/Chirk/Ruabon/Wrexham, increase journey opportunities between Milton Keynes/Rugby/Stafford to the North West and increase calls at Tamworth/Lichfield.

 

[pt_mad]

Virgin proposed the additional calls at Nuneaton in the 2012 bid. Details of this are available at http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-re...oup-on-west-coast-bid-promises-167994836.html

So why remove so many calls in the first place if its all so easy to reintroduce some of them?

I thought their whole arguement was stopping at Nuneaton would slow down fast services from the North West which they could not afford to slow down?

 

[The Planner]

The cynical amongst us would say it is more to do with sewing up the extra paths so OAO can't nab them.

 

[Zoe]

I thought their whole arguement was stopping at Nuneaton would slow down fast services from the North West which they could not afford to slow down?

It was the Liverpool service which used to call at Nuneaton but from the new timetable this month this service will call additionally at Crewe. Looking at the timetable this does not seem to have extended journey times. In the case of Nuneaton the line speed is higher though so I'm not sure you'd be able to fit in a call there without it affecting journey times. It's possible that the additional calls at Nuneaton would have been added to some of the proposed new services rather than any of the current services.

 

[Moonshot]

The cynical amongst us would say it is more to do with sewing up the extra paths so OAO can't nab them.

Which would suggest we should make the entire network open access..!!!!

 

[pt_mad]

The cynical amongst us would say it is more to do with sewing up the extra paths so OAO can't nab them.

They only want Nuneaton when there is a risk open access operators might provide a fast service there?

 

[The Planner]

Again, this is my opinion only, but the xx.33 path out of Euston is something they want as it is the only path you can put stops in before the xx.40 Manchester.

 

[pt_mad]

Again, this is my opinion only, but the xx.33 path out of Euston is something they want as it is the only path you can put stops in before the xx.40 Manchester.

Is the x33 used at the moment or will that be the Shewsbury?

 

[pablo]

It's Lancaster and it stands for five minutes just south of Shugborough whilst the xx.40 Man Pic overtakes it .

Maybe FO @ 13:33 but it's not a delusion. I ride on it sometimes.

 

[The Planner]

Nothing is in the xx.33 at the mo.

 

[DarloRich]

The cynical amongst us would say it is more to do with sewing up the extra paths so OAO can't nab them.

that is disgracefully cynical - I am impressed! It is also, in my opinion, correct! Looking at all the information in the public domain i cant see any other reason for the , shall we say, keen interest in this path
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Nothing is in the xx.33 at the mo.

and i would get very poor odds on an OAO running in that path before a red train!

 

[pt_mad]

Theoretically do Virgin have enough Pendolinos (or Voyagers) to run an hourly service in this path within the next 18 months?