TSGN Class 313 replacement

[Class377/5]

I Tweeted GA and they appeared to have never heard of the problem and said they would investigate (I gave example details to them, but I'd say that every single 379 has broken buttons).

I doubt they'll do anything and nobody seems to care.

I've never suggested you'd take a train out of service, but there should still be a definite push to replace the buttons and solve the problem by making sure the replacements are not prone to breaking.

I can't believe for one second that these are being vandalised, so it must be a design flaw.

The 379 used a new type of button. The 377/6 have similar buttons and some are missing on there too.

 

[jon0844]

They should be replaced with a new type of button, and the supplier of that part made to pay. Do trains have some form of warranty? I guess for businesses it works slightly different - but there must be some equivalent of 'fit for purpose'?

Unless some kids are going around prising the covers/caps (or whatever they're called) off them like bottle tops, which maybe the manufacturer would claim, I'd say there's a serious flaw.

 

[8J]

The biggest problem facing the PEP stock is corrosion. Merseyrail fitted new panels by the doors in their 2003-5 refurbishment because they were in a terrible condition. I am led to believe that the undersides are in bad condition too. Those trains run in costal areas and the salty sea air will not help their case, hence why Merseyrail have wrapped the new livery around the units.

The 313's I assume have similar problems, but maybe not as bad as the 507/8's

 

[Searle]

When I was on a 313 earlier this month out of Moorgate, the noise was absolutely dreadful. The travelling ticket inspector took four times as long checking everyone's tickets since nobody could be heard!

Ticket inspector on a 313?

 

[Fincra5]

I want our 313s to stay Nice in the sun to sit in the back with the window down. Arm out like a trucker

Its quite pleasant to have no Aircon sometimes, get from fresh air.

 

[southern442]

I can't comment on the state of mechanical repair of the 313s, but there are plenty of them running with FCC that look very shabby indeed, at least on the outside.

The unrefurbished ones (i.e: original seating etc.) are a state inside aswell.

 

[Fincra5]

I'd like to see them have a service life longer than the Class 411

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'd like to see them have a service life longer than the Class 411

Certainly at least as long.

 

[Aictos]

They probably be in intense service as long as the IOW Island Line trains

 

[jopsuk]

The first 411s were introduced in 1956, the last built in 1963. They started to be withdrawn in 1998, the job was done by 2004. Gives an in service range of 35-49 years. Probably an average of about 42 years.

The 313s were introduced in 1976/77. They've already been in service for 36-37 years. Based on other procurements, I'd reckon it would likely be 4 years from the inital OJEU announcement to the introduction of a replacement fleet. There's been no announcement yet.

This is a long winded way of saying that they're now almost certain to have about as long a service life as the 411s

 

[RobShipway]

The first 411s were introduced in 1956, the last built in 1963. They started to be withdrawn in 1998, the job was done by 2004. Gives an in service range of 35-49 years. Probably an average of about 42 years.

The 313s were introduced in 1976/77. They've already been in service for 36-37 years. Based on other procurements, I'd reckon it would likely be 4 years from the inital OJEU announcement to the introduction of a replacement fleet. There's been no announcement yet.

This is a long winded way of saying that they're now almost certain to have about as long a service life as the 411s

I would imagine the 313's to have a longer service life than the 411's due to the fact that they are dual voltage small neat train. I reckon they will go to have been in service 55 - 60 years before they are withdrawn, but I will be the first to be proved wrong.

 

[southern442]

Ticket inspector on a 313?

There were a couple on my train. I don't know why TWO of them were needed but they still took four times as long as a normal inspector would.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought that was for health and safety they have to go around mob handed.

 

[jopsuk]

Rather than "Health and safety", I'd term the reason "Personal safety". It also means, on stopping trains, that they can more quickly do a sweep, then check a train going back the other way, so they can target a section of a line.

 

[jon0844]

RPIs do sometimes work alone but they'll end up letting some people off that won't when there are two or more - for obvious conflict avoidance reasons.

 

[Journeyman]

Biggest issue replacing the 313s, and I think the 507s and 508s as well, that no-one has mentioned, is loading gauge in the tunnels where they work. The roofline of these units is very low, and was designed for things like the Liverpool loop tunnels and the run to Moorgate where space is very limited. Look at the ex-508 trailers in the SWT 455s - the roof is much lower than the rest of the train.

Whatever design is chosen to replace them, you've got to deal with one of two very expensive options - (a) a specially-designed low-roof bodyshell or (b) extensive engineering work in the tunnels to allow use of a standard bodyshell. Hard to know which one is best, but it's likely to result in the 313s being around until they crumble to dust. Of course, an order for replacements for the 507s/508s at the same time would be big enough to bring some economies of scale.

 

[jopsuk]

Something I'd love to know regarding the height of a 313- retracted, is the pantograph actually lower than that on (say) a 317?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What about class 319s short term? They seem to be around the same length and height as the 313s. I can't find the height is the S stock to see if it'd be too tall. Realistically any replacement will probably need to be dual voltage (DC for the loop, AC elsewhere)

 

[Hadders]

I think the problem with 319's is that they are 4 car units and trains using the line are effectively limited to a maximum of 6 car because of the platform lengths in the underground section. 4 car trains would have insufficient capacity in the rush hour and 8 car ones would be too long.

The 319's require significant modification to make them into 3 car units so unlikely to happen for a short term solution.

 

[southern442]

I think the problem with 319's is that they are 4 car units and trains using the line are effectively limited to a maximum of 6 car because of the platform lengths in the underground section. 4 car trains would have insufficient capacity in the rush hour and 8 car ones would be too long.

The 319's require significant modification to make them into 3 car units so unlikely to happen for a short term solution.

Surely it's just a case of taking one coach out? And maybe putting them in another? For example, using the 319/3's and 319421, which could be converted to 319387:
Take a coach out of 319361-378 and insert two of the discarded coaches each into the remaining 319/3's and 319421. That would leave 18 3-car and 9 6-car sets.

I'm not sure if this could be adapted for the whole fleet but the 319's are going to Northern anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about class 319s short term? They seem to be around the same length and height as the 313s. I can't find the height is the S stock to see if it'd be too tall. Realistically any replacement will probably need to be dual voltage (DC for the loop, AC elsewhere)

I'm sure I heard that an S7 is the same length as a 6-car PEP, so that could be a solution.

 

[hassaanhc]

Surely it's just a case of taking one coach out? And maybe putting them in another? For example, using the 319/3's and 319421, which could be converted to 319387:
Take a coach out of 319361-378 and insert two of the discarded coaches each into the remaining 319/3's and 319421. That would leave 18 3-car and 9 6-car sets.

I'm not sure if this could be adapted for the whole fleet but the 319's are going to Northern anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm sure I heard that an S7 is the same length as a 6-car PEP, so that could be a solution.

One of the middle coaches has the compressor while the other has the pantograph and motors, so to remove a coach you would have to move equipment around

 

[southern442]

One of the middle coaches has the compressor while the other has the pantograph and motors, so to remove a coach you would have to move equipment around

Ah yes, I forgot about that.

 

[34D]

Biggest issue replacing the 313s, and I think the 507s and 508s as well, that no-one has mentioned, is loading gauge in the tunnels where they work. The roofline of these units is very low, and was designed for things like the Liverpool loop tunnels and the run to Moorgate where space is very limited. Look at the ex-508 trailers in the SWT 455s - the roof is much lower than the rest of the train.

Whatever design is chosen to replace them, you've got to deal with one of two very expensive options - (a) a specially-designed low-roof bodyshell or (b) extensive engineering work in the tunnels to allow use of a standard bodyshell. Hard to know which one is best, but it's likely to result in the 313s being around until they crumble to dust. Of course, an order for replacements for the 507s/508s at the same time would be big enough to bring some economies of scale.

A test train (with standard size mark 1 coaches) occasionally goes into Moorgate with a class 73 - so I suggest there is more room than thought. Equally, class 73's have been round the Merseyrail system.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm sure I heard that an S7 is the same length as a 6-car PEP, so that could be a solution.

It's the height that could be the issue, part from the top of the coaches to the top of the tunnel. If whatever replaces them is below a certain height then conversion of the Merseyrail to AC would be a possibility. What's the minimum gap needed from the top of the train to the catenary wires. I'm guessing that below a certain point there's the risk or arcing between the catenary and the bodywork of the coach.

 

[Class 170101]

I think this may vary.

The Paisley Canal has clearances suitable for Class 314s and 380s only. For any thing else to run there the OLHE must be isolated.

Liverpool Street when wired was first 1500DC then 6.25kv ac but with parts of the system at 25kv ac the whole system is now 25kv ac but I doubt the clerances have changed that much if at all. Indeed in Liverpool Street's case they may have been reduced firther since first introduced.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Biggest issue replacing the 313s, and I think the 507s and 508s as well, that no-one has mentioned, is loading gauge in the tunnels where they work. The roofline of these units is very low, and was designed for things like the Liverpool loop tunnels and the run to Moorgate where space is very limited. Look at the ex-508 trailers in the SWT 455s - the roof is much lower than the rest of the train.

Whatever design is chosen to replace them, you've got to deal with one of two very expensive options - (a) a specially-designed low-roof bodyshell or (b) extensive engineering work in the tunnels to allow use of a standard bodyshell. Hard to know which one is best, but it's likely to result in the 313s being around until they crumble to dust. Of course, an order for replacements for the 507s/508s at the same time would be big enough to bring some economies of scale.

This has been debunked before

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1630735&postcount=37

The original PEP prototype was the same height and never went on either Merseyrail or the tunnels to Moorgate.

 

[Techniquest]

On the 455 front, if they're going ahead with changing the traction package, in my mind it would be very wasteful for that not to extend their lifespan by at least 15 years.

I wouldn't be overly surprised if that was made to be the case. The HST refurbishment and re-engineering program was only to give the fleet another 10 years of use, and much of the fleet will be in year 6 (hard to believe some of us were rushing to try out the refurbished HST sets at the time, and how long ago that was!) of that already, seeing as the program finished on the Western by mid-2008 if memory serves correctly. A few power cars will be better off yet, with some of the ex-EMT examples now with East Coast having been done more recently. Since IEP won't be here before that predicted lifespan will be over (or at least, it's unlikely! We were, after all, supposed to have the prototype in 2013 and fully entered into squadron service by 2016...) I have a hunch they'll be tweaking this, that and the other to make them last longer, although inside the MK3s there's no reason why they won't make it just fine. It still feels quite modern and fresh so it's just the rest of the MK3s to sort out really.

Point being there that the same will inevitably be done to the 455s to force them to last longer. Same for the 313s, 507s and 508s without a doubt.

As for those complaining about 313s being shabby, well whilst it's been a little while getting since my last trip on one (there's a point for me to remember for my next London bash, get some progress made on the 313s...), I would not have said they were shabby or overly loud in tunnels. I sure would have noticed, having spent a lot of time on that day on 313s.

Finally, the 377/6s and 379s are not alone with the door button problem. 172s have it a lot too with London Midland, although it's annoying it's not a major problem in my eyes. However I'd still take it up with the manufacturer!

 

[Tom C]

It has to be remembered that the 313's on FCC are basically the same as they were when they were introduced save for some new seats and by and large they are very reliable units considering the amount of punishment they take. Most faults are fixed fairly easily and because they are getting on, the fleet team have so much experience with them that there is virtually no situation where they cannot get them going again to such a degree that I cannot remember the last time a 313 had to be rescued.

365's on the other hand.............

The Southern refurbishment is a credit to them. The interiors are superb yet they keep the simple running gear so they are easy to fix. I know the interior wouldn't be great on GNE but it does show that a PROPER refurbishment rather than a refresh is really the way to keep stock going for many years plus giving the passenger more than just new seat moquette.

 

[bramling]

But surely if the company placed an order for 378's, Bombardier would give them 378's and not the Aventra model?



In my opinion the 313's should just be replaced because I went on one today and it was very slowly falling apart. Even with a full refurb and new traction pack, it would still feel old and unpleasant.

This weekend they have been running semi-fast services due to the need for King's Cross services to be diverted to Moorgate. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised how comfortable these units were when running longer distances and at speed. The ride quality was very smooth indeed, and the seating was ok -- with the exception of the ex-Silverlink units which still retain their original seating.

Give a Southern-style refurbishment and these units should serve well for some time to come, and certainly the design is entirely suitable for the Cardiff Valleys where most journeys are only fairly short.

I don't see any value in putting 319s on the Moorgate service at all.

 

[jon0844]

It's always nice when 313s operate services that skip a lot of stations and can really get a chance to go flat out.