TSGN Class 313 replacement

[jon0844]

378 don't have the earlier style 377 window arrangement, and given they are building additional trailer cars for Tfl I doubt it would be a problem if somebody wanted to buy an updated version of the 378, after all they are Electrostars with sliding doors instead of plug doors, of course it might make more sense to by an Aventra instead, other manufacturers are available, including a Japanese one which is allegedly now as British as Bombardier.

Surely standard practice isn't for a TOC/ROSCO or the DfT to specify what it wants to Bombardier. Bombardier tells the TOC/ROSCO or the DfT what it's going to get...

Back in the day, when working in 6-car mode, passengers were allowed in the "guard's vestibules" in the two middle cabs (but not in the driving compartment). This provided a lot of useful additional standing capacity at peak times.

Nowadays with DOO, three cabs should be available. But for some reason all the cabs are now locked out of use.

And with new stickers to make it much clearer than before that passengers are NOT allowed in there.

There has been talk of them being made permanent 6 car trains for ages. I think there was even talk of them having toilets fitted, as well as passenger information screens.

At some point, it will have to be decided if it's worth doing the work or buying new trains - especially if the 313s could be used elsewhere without all of the modification work being necessary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At some point, it will have to be decided if it's worth doing the work or buying new trains - especially if the 313s could be used elsewhere without all of the modification work being necessary.

"Used elsewhere.. without all the modification work being necessary"

That sounds like DfT talk for "Ship them off to Northern Rail"...

 

[transmanche]

"Used elsewhere.. without all the modification work being necessary"

That sounds like DfT talk for "Ship them off to Northern Rail"...

Well some of them have been shipped off to Southern. And I'm sure Merseyrail would find some use for them..

 

[anthony263]

Either that or we could see them in south wales rather than us getting the class 315's

 

[transmanche]

Either that or we could see them in south wales rather than us getting the class 315's

Only if the fact they're 3-car units (whereas the 315s are 4-car) is useful in South Wales? Otherwise, the 315s are slightly younger than the 313s.

The reason for suggesting Merseyrail is because the 313s have the same bodies as the 507/508s and that they can work on 3rd rail.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"Used elsewhere.. without all the modification work being necessary"

That sounds like DfT talk for "Ship them off to Northern Rail"...

I think that would be an improvement on a 142 surely ? - 50% more capacity to begin with , let alone "metro" characteristics to deal with this short peak crowding we hear so much about.....

 

[samuelmorris]

I think that would be an improvement on a 142 surely ? - 50% more capacity to begin with , let alone "metro" characteristics to deal with this short peak crowding we hear so much about.....

50% increase in number of carriages - 100% increase in number of seats. Probably more standing room too!

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

I was under the impression that it was not possible to build/extend a 37n greater then 5 cars. Something I have read on other posts.
But Derby do have a longer walkthrough EMU currently in production..perfect for the busy rush hour loadings.....so why not order an S6? In fact, an S7 is actually shorter than 2x313. Liverpool can do the same to replace the 507/8s. It must be possible to alter an MS to fit a pantograph and equipment.

 

[Chris125]

As S Stock is a metro design based around the MOVIA platform it may not be TSI compliant, which would make it a non-starter.

Chris

 

[transmanche]

As S Stock is a metro design based around the MOVIA platform it may not be TSI compliant, which would make it a non-starter.

I don't think the issues are insurmountable, as S Stock will operate the NR Richmond branch.

 

[jopsuk]

I think that would be an improvement on a 142 surely ? - 50% more capacity to begin with , let alone "metro" characteristics to deal with this short peak crowding we hear so much about.....

A class 313 is twice the length of a class 142- 3x20m versus 2x15m!

 

[Chris125]

I don't think the issues are insurmountable, as S Stock will operate the NR Richmond branch.

I'm not convinced that's relevant, LUL stock is not expected to be compliant with the same standards with the most obvious example being the colour of the cab. As for whether the issue is insurmountable, it comes down to cost and it's hard to see why it would be worthwhile when compliant and suitable designs are available 'off the shelf', such as the Aventra.

Chris

 

[transmanche]

I'm not convinced that's relevant, LUL stock is not expected to be compliant with the same standards with the most obvious example being the colour of the cab.

Well it shows that derogations to the "standards" can and are made. Similarly with the T&W Metro stock on NR metals between Pelaw Junction and South Hylton - where they share the track as far as Sunderland with passenger and freight trains.

 

[Chris125]

Well it shows that derogations to the "standards" can and are made. Similarly with the T&W Metro stock on NR metals between Pelaw Junction and South Hylton - where they share the track as far as Sunderland with passenger and freight trains.

Exactly, but Merseyrail is not London Underground or the T&W Metro - it is part of the national railway network and is operated as such, so it's hard to see any grounds for a derogation.

Chris

 

[southern442]

Surely standard practice isn't for a TOC/ROSCO or the DfT to specify what it wants to Bombardier. Bombardier tells the TOC/ROSCO or the DfT what it's going to get...

But surely if the company placed an order for 378's, Bombardier would give them 378's and not the Aventra model?

At some point, it will have to be decided if it's worth doing the work or buying new trains - especially if the 313s could be used elsewhere without all of the modification work being necessary.

In my opinion the 313's should just be replaced because I went on one today and it was very slowly falling apart. Even with a full refurb and new traction pack, it would still feel old and unpleasant.

 

[jon0844]

I've never seen a 313 that looks like it's falling apart. They seem bullet proof and I always wonder if any new stock will last as long.

There's every chance they'll still be in service for many more years, albeit not necessarily in the same place. Shame I most likely won't be around to see if, say, a 379 will last 40 or 45 years.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd say the oldest examples of 357s and 375s are now of sufficient age to get some sort of idea about that. For 15 years of age they seem to be standing up fairly well. We shall see

 

[Manchester77]

The 375 so don't have buttons falling off them even though they're still very young though

 

[user15681]

I'd say the oldest examples of 357s and 375s are now of sufficient age to get some sort of idea about that. For 15 years of age they seem to be standing up fairly well. We shall see

The 375 so don't have buttons falling off them even though they're still very young though

Indeed they're holding up well. The only internal aesthetic problems with the 375s really are vandalism related. Worn carpet, torn upholstery, particularly underneath the seats (!), damaged back seat-trays, chewing gum etc. There are a few sticky inter-carriage doors and occasional door faults, of course, but no buttons falling off. It's near impossible to tell the older units apart from the newer ones and for 10-15 years they're doing very good.

I'm not hugely familiar with the 313s and although they seem to have done their job well, I think it's time they went.

 

[Manchester77]

Other than the different PIS and seating on the 377/6s compared to the 377/1/2/3/4/5s you can usually tell them apart because the 377/6s have failed somewhere

I'd say the entire PEP family is doing its job well, think of the 455s which replaced southern railway stock. Now the 455s on SWT are set to be re-tractioned meaning that they'll be around for another 10+ years. The 314s in Scotland still soldier on without much fuss unlike their newer 334 friends which were rather unreliable when first introduced IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the PEP stock reaches it's 50th birthday, I would be surprised if some of the newer builds of electrostar do!

 

[Class377/5]

The 375 so don't have buttons falling off them even though they're still very young though

That's the 379 fleet. Last month I rode around on half the fleet and there was something like 70% of the buttons missing on all the trains. Some are worse than others.

Word of warning, the 313s had some issues when brought into service along the level of the original Electrostars. Seems time has allowed that to be forgotten.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd say the entire PEP family is doing its job well, think of the 455s which replaced southern railway stock.

The 455s aren't PEP stock. They're later, mark 3 based stock except for the TSO vehicles in the 455/7s.

 

[Manchester77]

The 455s aren't PEP stock. They're later, mark 3 based stock except for the TSO vehicles in the 455/7s.

Course sorry, I was watching a video about the development of the PEP family which had the prototypes working out of Waterloo which caused me to think that the 455s were a direct link to them
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's the 379 fleet. Last month I rode around on half the fleet and there was something like 70% of the buttons missing on all the trains. Some are worse than others.

Word of warning, the 313s had some issues when brought into service along the level of the original Electrostars. Seems time has allowed that to be forgotten.

Are there any plans to have them replaced because without them surely the train would fail the disability regulations? Let's hope that happens with the newer electrostars.

 

[jon0844]

I Tweeted GA and they appeared to have never heard of the problem and said they would investigate (I gave example details to them, but I'd say that every single 379 has broken buttons).

I doubt they'll do anything and nobody seems to care.

I've never suggested you'd take a train out of service, but there should still be a definite push to replace the buttons and solve the problem by making sure the replacements are not prone to breaking.

I can't believe for one second that these are being vandalised, so it must be a design flaw.

 

[southern442]

I've never seen a 313 that looks like it's falling apart. They seem bullet proof and I always wonder if any new stock will last as long.

There's every chance they'll still be in service for many more years, albeit not necessarily in the same place. Shame I most likely won't be around to see if, say, a 379 will last 40 or 45 years.

Maybe I should have explained in detail. They do not really look like they are falling apart and are certainly very reliable, but the feel inside, when they rattle when the very violent compressor (I think thats what it is) is on, and how they are very slow and noisy, and how the traction motors sound very worn makes you think they will break down any minute. This particular unit was unrefurbished, so it was quite a grim journey.

 

[GatwickDepress]

When I was on a 313 earlier this month out of Moorgate, the noise was absolutely dreadful. The travelling ticket inspector took four times as long checking everyone's tickets since nobody could be heard!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Maybe I should have explained in detail. They do not really look like they are falling apart and are certainly very reliable, but the feel inside, when they rattle when the very violent compressor (I think thats what it is) is on, and how they are very slow and noisy, and how the traction motors sound very worn makes you think they will break down any minute. This particular unit was unrefurbished, so it was quite a grim journey.

The SN Coastway refurbed ones are much nicer. 313s are a bloody good train. No way are they ready for the scrapheap yet. They should last as long as the CEPs did IMO.

 

[jopsuk]

The SN Coastway refurbed ones are much nicer. 313s are a bloody good train. No way are they ready for the scrapheap yet. They should last as long as the CEPs did IMO.

... which would see them being withdrawn and scrapped in 6-10 years time.

 

[samuelmorris]

I can't comment on the state of mechanical repair of the 313s, but there are plenty of them running with FCC that look very shabby indeed, at least on the outside. That said, FCC's 377/5s look just as bad, so that clearly isn't a fault with the unit, more the TOC.
I have no prejudices against first, and I generally think the standard of rolling stock on Great Western is good despite its age, but I'm really quite unimpressed with how FCC look after theirs.

As pointed out, they may not be used on services as intensive as the London units, but Southern's 313s look fairly good for nearly being 40 years of age.

On the 455 front, if they're going ahead with changing the traction package, in my mind it would be very wasteful for that not to extend their lifespan by at least 15 years.

 

[jon0844]

The livery on a lot of 313s is very worn, presumably from graffiti being removed so many times it has started to wear through.

I wonder if these will be reliveried in the generic TSGN colours in the near future?