TSGN Class 313 replacement

[Manchester77]

I've just begun to read through the latest issue of modern railways and on the double page spread about the Class 170 situation with TPE it states that 'news emerges that the fleet of 313s currently with FCC is to be replaced with state of the art trains'

I wonder what trains these could be, add on stock to the existing Desiro City order or something yet to go out to tender? Any ideas?

 

[387star]

Interesting about time !! Wonder if Southern will receive more 313s...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've just begun to read through the latest issue of modern railways and on the double page spread about the Class 170 situation with TPE it states that 'news emerges that the fleet of 313s currently with FCC is to be replaced with state of the art trains'

I wonder what trains these could be, add on stock to the existing Desiro City order or something yet to go out to tender? Any ideas?

I read that too, but it is linked to the winner of the TSGN franchise so not a "done deal" yet.
But it would be another (very) old fleet to cascade north or west.
Luckily I think they may be too old to be refurbished (even older than Merseyrail's 507/508s).
They are as old as the oldest HSTs (1976)...

 

[petersi]

I've just begun to read through the latest issue of modern railways and on the double page spread about the Class 170 situation with TPE it states that 'news emerges that the fleet of 313s currently with FCC is to be replaced with state of the art trains'

I wonder what trains these could be, add on stock to the existing Desiro City order or something yet to go out to tender? Any ideas?

I have no internal knowledge just a passenger
Not sure if this is a good idea. Not just cost but also staff resources

Drivers on the great northern route will need training on new trains, Thames link core and the new systems, and route knowledge south of the Thames. This at a guess requires a lot of training. (Assumes that drives welwyn garden city will cover Thameslink and moorgate which may not be the case)

Plus ERTMS introduction on ECML.

The logistics of all this change make me think best to stick with the 313 unless there reliability issues

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[TEW]

Interesting about time !! Wonder if Southern will receive more 313s...

It seems unlikely. All the talk has been of moving the Coastway 313/2s to Great Northern routes post-Thameslink as the introduction of the 700s could free up sufficient 377s to replace the 313/2s on Coastway duties.

 

[Class 170101]

I would have thought the 378s would be the logical design given they are dual voltage units.

 

[Manchester77]

I read that too, but it is linked to the winner of the TSGN franchise so not a "done deal" yet.
But it would be another (very) old fleet to cascade north or west.
Luckily I think they may be too old to be refurbished (even older than Merseyrail's 507/508s).
They are as old as the oldest HSTs (1976)...

I guess it won't be long until we find out if it is a done deal. I wonder if the bidder which has proposed this will issue an ITT like abellio did with the Scotrail franchise competition, hope so

I would have thought the 378s would be the logical design given they are dual voltage units.

Why would the electrostar model be chosen when bombardier can offer a newer model (aventra) which can be dual voltage if chosen. It's possible that an add on to the 700 order could happen meaning that on GN services you'd have Thameslink and GN 700s which would remove an additional complexities by having an additional different fleet on the GN lines. I wonder if a few more of the 313 replacements could be ordered as 321 replacements?

 

[southern442]

I would have thought the 378s would be the logical design given they are dual voltage units.

I'm surprised the 378 hasn't taken off, as it is quite a good design.

 

[Class377/5]

New units for NCL lines isn't really new information. Was reported in Rail ages ago that TSGN bidders were looking at new fleets on top of the 700's because it filled the quality marking but warned that this would create an issue for the DfT as costs would go up.

After all the TSGN operator will get a set fee in exchange for meeting the criteria the DfT has laid out with the additional costs of new units coming out of the DfT's take of the revenue money with possible extra payment to TSGN operator for exceed the quality compared to today's service.

I'm surprised the 378 hasn't taken off, as it is quite a good design.

Its not a new one either. The design is seen in the 37x series. Just the internals are what TfL ordered, but no TOC would order internal arrangement like that.

I would have thought the 378s would be the logical design given they are dual voltage units.

So are the 350 and 700's. The later being used side by side with the 313s and their replacements and maintained in a depot alongside them. Economics of scale favors the Desiro City design .

 

[Bald Rick]

All will be revealed with the winning bidder.

 

[Class377/5]

All will be revealed with the winning bidder.

Tease

 

[jopsuk]

If the winning bid has cut some sort of deal with TfL to run Moorgate services under the Overground brand, then perhaps 378s- albeit in 6-car formation, so unusable on the other lines- might make sense from a maintenance point of view.

Otherwise, it makes sense for the replacement fleet to be put out to full tender to get the best possible units.

Even if the service was to go to LO branding, it still might make sense to get an all-new fleet, as there wouldn't be any operational crossover

 

[petersi]

So are the 350 and 700's. The later being used side by side with the 313s and their replacements and maintained in a depot alongside them. Economics of scale favors the Desiro City design .

Also in terms of staff trading etc it is possibly the only economy solution




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[Class377/5]

Also in terms of staff trading etc it is possibly the only economy solution

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Not forgetting the Thameslink deal has options for additional units and carriages that would properly be enough to cover the current fleet numbers wise (have to double check that).

 

[Minstral25]

It seems unlikely. All the talk has been of moving the Coastway 313/2s to Great Northern routes post-Thameslink as the introduction of the 700s could free up sufficient 377s to replace the 313/2s on Coastway duties.

Having spoken with Southern this evening about longer trains on my route, it seems there are no spare stock even after the 700's come in as many existing units are being removed as part of the TSGN Franchise commitments (i.e. 100 377 coaches to South-Eastern). So the lack of stock for train strengthening on my local route is likely to mean 313's stay on the south coast for some time.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Having spoken with Southern this evening about longer trains on my route, it seems there are no spare stock even after the 700's come in as many existing units are being removed as part of the TSGN Franchise commitments (i.e. 100 377 coaches to South-Eastern). So the lack of stock for train strengthening on my local route is likely to mean 313's stay on the south coast for some time.

Unless the GN 313's move south to cover the 377's on the Brighton to Southampton services........

 

[Minstral25]

Unless the GN 313's move south to cover the 377's on the Brighton to Southampton services........

Which works if they become available as they are replaced in London

 

[Class 170101]

I think some believe on here that 315s may be too long for Welsh Valley routes, unless they remove trailer car. How about the 313s then as 3 car trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the winning bid has cut some sort of deal with TfL to run Moorgate services under the Overground brand, then perhaps 378s- albeit in 6-car formation, so unusable on the other lines- might make sense from a maintenance point of view.

Could be formed of 2x 3 carriage 378s to make 6 carriage trains. Don't GN run 3 car trains between the peaks and at weekends on Hertford and Welwyn routes?

 

[petersi]

Could be formed of 2x 3 carriage 378s to make 6 carriage trains. Don't GN run 3 car trains between the peaks and at weekends on Hertford and Welwyn routes?

Off peak the trains are 3 car
I believe that replacements will be fixed 6 car to provide more standing room during the peak. It to expensive too lengthen the platforms underground.


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[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us all be grateful that we are not still discussing how much extra life there could be in the Class 304 units, as it seemed that they would go on for ever at one time...

 

[transmanche]

Let us all be grateful that we are not still discussing how much extra life there could be in the Class 304 units, as it seemed that they would go on for ever at one time...

Well the 313s will soon be surpassing the 304s in their length of service.

 

[Chris125]

I'm surprised the 378 hasn't taken off, as it is quite a good design.

Wasn't the 378 based on the first-generation Electrostar bodyshell? A new run of complete units would presumably run into the same issue as the 377/6 and 377/7, and require a variant of the new 379-style bodyshell. For a new fleet it surely must be better and probably cheaper to adopt one of the new generation designs.

Chris

 

[47802]

Wasn't the 378 based on the first-generation Electrostar bodyshell? A new run of complete units would presumably run into the same issue as the 377/6 and 377/7, and require a variant of the new 379-style bodyshell. For a new fleet it surely must be better and probably cheaper to adopt one of the new generation designs.

Chris

378 don't have the earlier style 377 window arrangement, and given they are building additional trailer cars for Tfl I doubt it would be a problem if somebody wanted to buy an updated version of the 378, after all they are Electrostars with sliding doors instead of plug doors, of course it might make more sense to by an Aventra instead, other manufacturers are available, including a Japanese one which is allegedly now as British as Bombardier.

 

[Aictos]

Thing with the 3 car 313s at the moment is running as a 6 car formation in the peak is all well and good but you do lose a reasonable amount of space in the middle with the cabs which could be used for seating, least if you have fixed formation 6 cars of something similar but not the same as a 378 there is far more room and it can take more passengers.

Just be interesting to see what the bidders have brought to the table.

 

[transmanche]

Thing with the 3 car 313s at the moment is running as a 6 car formation in the peak is all well and good but you do lose a reasonable amount of space in the middle with the cabs which could be used for seating, least if you have fixed formation 6 cars of something similar but not the same as a 378 there is far more room and it can take more passengers.

Back in the day, when working in 6-car mode, passengers were allowed in the "guard's vestibules" in the two middle cabs (but not in the driving compartment). This provided a lot of useful additional standing capacity at peak times.

Nowadays with DOO, three cabs should be available. But for some reason all the cabs are now locked out of use.

 

[Chris125]

378 don't have the earlier style 377 window arrangement, and given they are building additional trailer cars for Tfl I doubt it would be a problem if somebody wanted to buy an updated version of the 378...

As already mentioned there must be an issue as Southern were forced to receive a hybrid design compatible with the original but using the updated 379 bodyshell - the 378 trailers may be an exception simply because such vehicles aren't impacted by the change in cab design required by recent regulations, and so Bombardier don't need to undertake any design alterations.

Chris

 

[455driver]

Let us all be grateful that we are not still discussing how much extra life there could be in the Class 304 units, as it seemed that they would go on for ever at one time...

Fantasic suspension.

Trouble was it was all in the seats, there certainly wasnt any on the bogies!

 

[Drsatan]

Fantasic suspension.

Trouble was it was all in the seats, there certainly wasnt any on the bogies!

You could say the same about the 411s

 

[D6975]

I think some believe on here that 315s may be too long for Welsh Valley routes, unless they remove trailer car. How about the 313s then as 3 car trains?

They used to routinely run 2x150/2 formations on the valleys when they first arrived, a 315 can't be that much longer surely?

That's ignoring the newer lines of course. (Maesteg, Aberdare etc..)

 

[anthony263]

Maesteg could certainly accomodate a 4 carriage class 315 as the platforms have been extended.

Some stations however might not be able to even those on the swml such as Baglan (which might be a difficult one to extend)